Popeye, Your idea is based on the assumption that Paul wrote to the Thess of a pre-trib gathering while Jesus gave the apostles a post-trib gathering, that is a false assumption. Paul wrote to the Thess about the exact same return of Christ that Jesus gave the apostles. The church before Paul were all post-trib gathering believers...because that was the only return of Christ known to them. When Paul joined the church later on he would have had to have accepted the same return of Christ that the rest of the church was believing, that would be post-trib. So Paul was describing a post-trib gathering to the Thess, this is born out by the facts that Paul said it could not take place until after the Antichrist and also Paul described the same thing Jesus described. About the gathering, give me a break, Paul said that Jesus would return with angels and gather the believers, just because he did not mention the angels actually doing the gathering is a very tiny difference.
The Rapture of the Church
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Hi Not: You probably do not realize it(maybe you do?) but you are teaching Darbyism not the bible. Look up pre-trib in the encyclopedia, it will explain that John Darby invented the idea that there are TWO returns of Christ, a pre-trib and later a post trib. Darby went around the country spreading his false story until most people accepted it because it got the church out of the tribulation that Jesus had said the church would go through. You have Jesus on one side saying that the church will go through the tribulation before He returns. You have Satan working through Darby on the other side saying that the church will not go through the tribulation. Reminds me of when God told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit and Satan told Adam he would not die...you can believe who you want but I believe God.
Hi Not: Your reply makes no sense? Whether or not I fear about being left behind is not the issue. Are you speaking of the joy of believing a false pre-trib gathering that makes people feel good? Do I want to destroy that lie from Satan that has the potential of causing millions to lose their souls...you bet I do.
BLAH BLAH Blah.......
We covered his once before....but you just skipped right over it because it contradicts your view....here..read it one more time and embrace truth...
New American Standard Bible
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
King James Bible
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
We covered his once before....but you just skipped right over it because it contradicts your view....here..read it one more time and embrace truth...
New American Standard Bible
"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
King James Bible
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
P
Jesus gave the apostles the 10 virgin parable. Nothing there even remotely resembling a war zone.(pretrib setting all the way)
Noah,and lot are pretrib dynamics. (in your scenario,noah ,and lot would be delivered/removed POSTJUDGEMENT)
Further,at the last supper,Jesus spoke of the business we do with him IN HEAVEN,along with places he prepared for us IN HEAVEN.
Also,it was Jesus that said "pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the earth,and stand before the son of man."
Noah,and lot are pretrib dynamics. (in your scenario,noah ,and lot would be delivered/removed POSTJUDGEMENT)
Further,at the last supper,Jesus spoke of the business we do with him IN HEAVEN,along with places he prepared for us IN HEAVEN.
Also,it was Jesus that said "pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the earth,and stand before the son of man."
There are 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation which is the great tribulation, that shall try all that are left on the earth after the pre trib rapture.
The 1st angel will spread the everlasting gospel so that every one will have heard the gospel.
The 2nd angel will herald that fire coming on the earth which destroys one third of the earth. This will include the fall of Babylon USA as given in detail in Revelation 18th chapter with those saints left behind to be made to rest from their labor while their works follow them to the dust; hence wood, stubble, and hay.
The 3rd angel will warn every one about the consequence for taking the mark of the beast system to buy and sell in the coming new world order in order to survive that calamity of fire that had just come on the other side of the earth.
That consequence is the lake of fire so no one has any excuse for not knowing the gospel and after the calamity, not knowing the consequence for taking the mark to buy & sell when the new world order comes in when the great tribulation starts.
So how quickly will this all happen in that small gap? Jesus said the calamity will happen immediately afterwards when the abiding saints are taken, leaving those saints in iniquity behind.
Matthew 24:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:[SUP]33 [/SUP]So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[SUP]34 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]36 [/SUP]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,[SUP]39 [/SUP]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So the times are now as He could come at any moment for when the abiding saints enter the King's Supper, then destruction shall come, and so shall the coming of the Son of man be as He will appear when the angels gather.
It has been determined by some believers that the Book of Daniel prophesied that when they give the command out to build the third Temple at Jerusalem, that is the beginning of the great tribulation. So it is possible to count seven years from that to know when Christ's returning with the pre raptured saints shall be at Jerusalem which explains why the world's armies and Satan were waiting to do battle with Him at His return as God permitted it.
That is why His warnings to believers to be ready is for the present times; not under the duress of the great tribulation. What believer would love their lives to not want to leave in the great tribulation? No one.
So that is why His wisdom is needed to read His words as is in the KJV Bible.
As it is, destruction comes after His appearing which is the rapture, but how long it takes for the rest of the world to make a peace treaty with Israel and allow them to build that third Temple as a result, shall be swift because the devil knows he has little time left in building his one world army for His return.
Revelation 12:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So the pre raptured saints shall rejoice in Heaven... leaving woe to those saints left behind on the earth being given unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh ( physical death ) so that their spirits may be saved in the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We can trust Jesus Christ in doing a good job in the keeping of the souls of those saints left behind as well as the souls of new believers while they suffer the hour of trial during the great tribulation on earth.
1 Peter 4:[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
The 1st angel will spread the everlasting gospel so that every one will have heard the gospel.
The 2nd angel will herald that fire coming on the earth which destroys one third of the earth. This will include the fall of Babylon USA as given in detail in Revelation 18th chapter with those saints left behind to be made to rest from their labor while their works follow them to the dust; hence wood, stubble, and hay.
The 3rd angel will warn every one about the consequence for taking the mark of the beast system to buy and sell in the coming new world order in order to survive that calamity of fire that had just come on the other side of the earth.
That consequence is the lake of fire so no one has any excuse for not knowing the gospel and after the calamity, not knowing the consequence for taking the mark to buy & sell when the new world order comes in when the great tribulation starts.
So how quickly will this all happen in that small gap? Jesus said the calamity will happen immediately afterwards when the abiding saints are taken, leaving those saints in iniquity behind.
Matthew 24:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:[SUP]33 [/SUP]So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.[SUP]34 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]36 [/SUP]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.[SUP]37 [/SUP]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,[SUP]39 [/SUP]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So the times are now as He could come at any moment for when the abiding saints enter the King's Supper, then destruction shall come, and so shall the coming of the Son of man be as He will appear when the angels gather.
It has been determined by some believers that the Book of Daniel prophesied that when they give the command out to build the third Temple at Jerusalem, that is the beginning of the great tribulation. So it is possible to count seven years from that to know when Christ's returning with the pre raptured saints shall be at Jerusalem which explains why the world's armies and Satan were waiting to do battle with Him at His return as God permitted it.
That is why His warnings to believers to be ready is for the present times; not under the duress of the great tribulation. What believer would love their lives to not want to leave in the great tribulation? No one.
So that is why His wisdom is needed to read His words as is in the KJV Bible.
As it is, destruction comes after His appearing which is the rapture, but how long it takes for the rest of the world to make a peace treaty with Israel and allow them to build that third Temple as a result, shall be swift because the devil knows he has little time left in building his one world army for His return.
Revelation 12:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So the pre raptured saints shall rejoice in Heaven... leaving woe to those saints left behind on the earth being given unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh ( physical death ) so that their spirits may be saved in the day of Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:[SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
We can trust Jesus Christ in doing a good job in the keeping of the souls of those saints left behind as well as the souls of new believers while they suffer the hour of trial during the great tribulation on earth.
1 Peter 4:[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Message of the cross if I were you i would seek the answer for yourself by studying the bible because sadly the answer you seek is not set in stone when asking others because as you can see everyone has different dies about when and how the rapture and the tribulation happens. depending on what you believe may depend on the answer you find but my advice again is to seek the answers for yourself
L
It is a shame the you slander believers. ALL believe and look for His Coming (parousia). There is only ONE future coming in the Bible, the second advent of Christ.
Yes, Read Thessalonians in context. There are two ways the Christians read the Bible 1) eisegesis where we impose our man-made views on the text and confirm our biases. 2) exegesis where we let the Text speak to us
Actually take the time and sit down with your Bible and read 1 Thess. in context. It is NOT teaching a secret Rapture of the church that leaves airplanes crashing and clothes on the ground...that's Hollywood stuff...it may be good, clean entertainment but it is not faithful to the text of Scripture. The trouble with 'Bible' forums is that there is little room for Bible study...rather a shotgun approach of spewing out verses out of context. 1 Thess. is about the Second Advent of Christ, the Parousia. Learn to STUDY https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/
Yes, Read Thessalonians in context. There are two ways the Christians read the Bible 1) eisegesis where we impose our man-made views on the text and confirm our biases. 2) exegesis where we let the Text speak to us
Actually take the time and sit down with your Bible and read 1 Thess. in context. It is NOT teaching a secret Rapture of the church that leaves airplanes crashing and clothes on the ground...that's Hollywood stuff...it may be good, clean entertainment but it is not faithful to the text of Scripture. The trouble with 'Bible' forums is that there is little room for Bible study...rather a shotgun approach of spewing out verses out of context. 1 Thess. is about the Second Advent of Christ, the Parousia. Learn to STUDY https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/
L
Exactly. There is only ONE Return, Parousia, in the Bible. It is a shame the way we let men distort the Scripture with novel doctrines as Darby did. https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/
[QUOTE=LClark;3011709]It is a shame the you slander believers. ALL believe and look for His Coming (parousia). There is only ONE future coming in the Bible, the second advent of Christ.
Yes, Read Thessalonians in context. There are two ways the Christians read the Bible 1) eisegesis where we impose our man-made views on the text and confirm our biases. 2) exegesis where we let the Text speak to us
Actually take the time and sit down with your Bible and read 1 Thess. in context. It is NOT teaching a secret Rapture of the church that leaves airplanes crashing and clothes on the ground...that's Hollywood stuff...it may be good, clean entertainment but it is not faithful to the text of Scripture. The trouble with 'Bible' forums is that there is little room for Bible study...rather a shotgun approach of spewing out verses out of context. 1 Thess. is about the Second Advent of Christ, the Parousia. Learn to STUDY https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/[/QUOTE]
You are correct, there is only one coming. The error is that, when the church is gathered, Jesus doesn't return to the earth, but appears in the air to resurrect the dead and transform the living and then take the entire church back to the Father's house according to the promise in John14:1-3. They are two separate events.
Please take your own advise. The Lord is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath, which is what you would have him doing by interpreting the gathering of the church as taking place at the same time as the Lord's return to end the age. What a terrible message for new believers. "Congratulations! Now that you have received Christ you are saved and have the promise of eternal. The bad news is that, the Lord is still going to punish you by sending you through his wrath, even though he already suffered it on your behalf."
You neither understand the underlying principles of what Christ did for those who believe, nor do you pay attention to the fact that in between now and the time that the Lord returns the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer.
True believers are watching for the imminent return of the Lord, the blessed hope. Where you and others are teaching and looking to go through the wrath of God first. In that case, there would be no reason to comfort one another with those words, nor would it be a blessed hope.
Yes, Read Thessalonians in context. There are two ways the Christians read the Bible 1) eisegesis where we impose our man-made views on the text and confirm our biases. 2) exegesis where we let the Text speak to us
Actually take the time and sit down with your Bible and read 1 Thess. in context. It is NOT teaching a secret Rapture of the church that leaves airplanes crashing and clothes on the ground...that's Hollywood stuff...it may be good, clean entertainment but it is not faithful to the text of Scripture. The trouble with 'Bible' forums is that there is little room for Bible study...rather a shotgun approach of spewing out verses out of context. 1 Thess. is about the Second Advent of Christ, the Parousia. Learn to STUDY https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/second-coming-rapture-vs-scripture-christian/[/QUOTE]
You are correct, there is only one coming. The error is that, when the church is gathered, Jesus doesn't return to the earth, but appears in the air to resurrect the dead and transform the living and then take the entire church back to the Father's house according to the promise in John14:1-3. They are two separate events.
Please take your own advise. The Lord is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath, which is what you would have him doing by interpreting the gathering of the church as taking place at the same time as the Lord's return to end the age. What a terrible message for new believers. "Congratulations! Now that you have received Christ you are saved and have the promise of eternal. The bad news is that, the Lord is still going to punish you by sending you through his wrath, even though he already suffered it on your behalf."
You neither understand the underlying principles of what Christ did for those who believe, nor do you pay attention to the fact that in between now and the time that the Lord returns the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer.
True believers are watching for the imminent return of the Lord, the blessed hope. Where you and others are teaching and looking to go through the wrath of God first. In that case, there would be no reason to comfort one another with those words, nor would it be a blessed hope.
This month I've been listening to a study on the topic of the Rapture. It is such a shame so many believers don't believe and look for His coming. Instead many are looking for the anti christ or the judgment or the tribulation. This brings no encouragement for the church. We should be looking forward for life not death. 
Reading 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 encourages and comforts and builds us up in the faith in the love and provision of God in Christ. HE IS COMING FOR US!!!! Looking for His return is a wonderful way to live here.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [[SUP][a][/SUP]in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [[SUP][b][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [SUP][c][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.
Many in the church are missing out on all this comfort and encouragement that God wants us to have as we look around at the state of this world. We are His children who have escaped the wrath to come of God because of our lovely Savior. It brings another reason and desire to worship Him in thanksgiving and praise.
It gives strength and encouragement to be reminded we do not grieve as the world does. That Jesus is actually coming for us as He descends from heaven with a shout! with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God!! The graves of those who died in Christ before us will open! those dead bodies will be changed given new bodies; our new resurrected bodies will be given to us too and we will fly up and gather together with those who came out of the graves before and meet them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!
This is going to be GREAT!!!!!!
Reading 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 encourages and comforts and builds us up in the faith in the love and provision of God in Christ. HE IS COMING FOR US!!!! Looking for His return is a wonderful way to live here.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [[SUP][a][/SUP]in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [[SUP][b][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [SUP][c][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.
Many in the church are missing out on all this comfort and encouragement that God wants us to have as we look around at the state of this world. We are His children who have escaped the wrath to come of God because of our lovely Savior. It brings another reason and desire to worship Him in thanksgiving and praise.
It gives strength and encouragement to be reminded we do not grieve as the world does. That Jesus is actually coming for us as He descends from heaven with a shout! with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God!! The graves of those who died in Christ before us will open! those dead bodies will be changed given new bodies; our new resurrected bodies will be given to us too and we will fly up and gather together with those who came out of the graves before and meet them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!
This is going to be GREAT!!!!!!
Good day Joaniemarie,
I'm sure that I don't have to tell you not to listen to these people who are rejecting the Lord's promise to gather his church and that He is not going to send us through his wrath first. They dishonor Christ by not recognizing that he took upon himself the wrath that we deserve. They have no understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age. We are living in the last days and these are the false teachers that we are warned about.
Guard what you know to be the truth.
L
Just slander, which is not befitting Christian character. No one is rejecting the Lord's promise. You are just re-writing Scripture in your own words rather than accepting Paul's words inspired by the Holy Spirit. Learn to actually study the Bible instead of just spewing opinions of confused men that reject the context of Holy Scripture.
Actually that puts me in mind of the passage in Acts ....
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus which is taken up into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The Disciples expected one further coming of Jesus followed by the resurrection of the dead. Pauls letters contained assurance that fellow believers who had died would not miss his coming and the revealing of a mystery that those living would be transformed which was not known before he wrote about it. There is no mention in his letters of it being before the tribulation started.
Acts 1:10-11
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel. Which also said why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus which is taken up into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The Disciples expected one further coming of Jesus followed by the resurrection of the dead. Pauls letters contained assurance that fellow believers who had died would not miss his coming and the revealing of a mystery that those living would be transformed which was not known before he wrote about it. There is no mention in his letters of it being before the tribulation started.
Acts 1:10-11