PreTrib's insurmountable problem with "the first resurrection":

Enow · Mar 15, 2017

Reading this out of context is not wise.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Now what did just happened? Satan has been defeated and cast into the pit. And yet Zechariah 14:1-5 has Jesus setting foot on earth at the mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies against Jerusalem by returning with the saints.

That means for this battle, Jesus is on earth; not in the air. After Satan had been defeated & placed in the pit, is when this resurrection you misread has taken place.

Now take note of what people are resurrected as it is specific in being only those saints that went through the great tribulation, because they did not receive the mark of the beast among other things indicative only of the great tribulation.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Only those saints left behind and new believers that went through the great tribulation are resurrected.

Now pay attention to how John was using the word "first".

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

That is all John was meaning about what that first resurrection was about as this resurrection will happen before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on AFTER the thousand years reign were finished. John was not meaning that this was literally the first and only resurrection.

If you do not believe me.. why did John mentioned the former part of verse 5 if the latter part of that verse 5 was to signify that the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation is to happen BEFORE the resurrection of the rest of the dead to signify that will happen first?

Now note that those who are of this resurrection are given only one promise that the power of the second death has nothing over them.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How do I know I am reading this correctly. Because it lines up with the prophesy in Zechariah 14:1-5

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

So here is the prophesy of Jesus coming with the saints to do battle ON EARTH as He sets foot on the mount of Olives, and yet Revelation testifies that the battle is over and Satan has been cast into the pit SO THAT MEANS those saints coming back with Him were pre raptured saints BECAUSE those coming out of the great tribulation in being resurrected "first" before the rest of the dead has not happened yet !!!!!!

Cart before the horse, people, if you deny the pre trib rapture.

May God help you to see the truth in His words in how everything lines up in supporting the pre trib rapture which is why every believer better seek him to get them ready to go for the Bridegroom will come back at any moment.

MattTooFor · Mar 15, 2017

Enow said:

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus...and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

OK, that was verse 4 (of Rev.20). Now verses 5 and 6, immediately following:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power...".

So there a second resurrection is described...and which happens at the end of the thousand years.

What's not to understand?

And so...since the first resurrection does not happen until after the martyrdom of the Great Tribulation has taken place...obviously there couldn't have been this alleged "PreTrib" rapture. Can't have a rapture without a resurrection, after all.

What's not to understand?

Enow · Mar 15, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Hold up a bit... you are overlooking the other descriptions that places only saints coming out of the great tribulation as being resurrected.

Revelation 20:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

See that underlined? That means referring to saints which were under the oppression of the great tribulation that had been killed; no other saints.

No. By referring to the rest of the dead that will happen after a thousand years just after verse 4 in testifying to the resurrection of only those saints that come out of the great tribulation, citing first resurrection means that the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected.

Then ask God these 2 questions;

If the "first resurrection" happened after Jesus had been on earth and had defeated the world's armies and had cast Satan into the pit, how can this "first resurrection" meet Jesus in the air when He had been already on earth?

Then ask God whom were the saints that came back with Him when He had set foot on the mount of Olives in doing battle against the world's armies in Zechariah 14:1-5 BEFORE casting Satan in the pit?

Ahwatukee · Mar 15, 2017

Those in scripture above is in reference to the great tribulation saints who will have been killed and resurrected who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. In fact, everywhere you see the word "saints" from Rev.5-8 onward is referring to the great tribulation saints, for the church will have already been gathered.

The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, does not belong to the first resurrection, but is a resurrection of all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. They will not have been worthy to partake in the first resurrection because they will have died in their sins. There are in fact stages or phases of the first resurrection:

1). Jesus the first fruits (1 Cor.15:22-23)

2). The church at his appearing prior to God's wrath (1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

3). The Male Child/144,00 who is caught up to God's throne (Rev.12:5)

4). The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

5). The great tribulation saints after Christ returns to end the age. (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above fall under the banner of first resurrection. The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is not apart of the first resurrection and will only include the unrighteous, for the second death has power over them.

MattTooFor · Mar 15, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

You are...hilarious. You just can't quit flat-out imposing your views. You have zilch evidence. You make zero arguments. You present zip evidence. You just go around announcing. My goodness. Are all the wires connected?

You're not above needing to reason for your beliefs. The arrogance is literally comedic at this point.

PrynceNY · Mar 15, 2017

Yet another thread among countless ones about the pre-trib rapture. I hope all the people who reject it have no problem being left behind if it does happen.

MattTooFor · Mar 15, 2017

Enow said:

That places...what? I'm not understanding your wording at this point.

Are you rebutting the Book of Revelation, or something?

Right. And...?? So what? This is STILL being described as "the first resurrection".

Which means...there was ZERO resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture. (Because there is no such thing as a "PreTrib" rapture.)

What exactly are we arguing about here?

Yes, the souls of those who were beheaded were also those who (as the text states) had not worshipped the beast neither taken his mark. What is your argument?

Enow · Mar 15, 2017

MattTooFor said:

You may be reading too fast to see my meaning ..... but no O.T. saints are joining those saints in that resurrection because the O.T. saints were never under the oppression of the mark of the beast system. Only saints under the oppression of the mark of the beast system during the great tribulation are in that resurrection.

Trying to discuss with you, but if you are being obtuse, then I reckon it is an argument on your part.

That only the saints that were under the oppression of the great tribulation are the ones resurrected.

So where are the O.T. saints?

Now slow down and read these questions next. Take a deep breath. I know you got an awful lot of replies to get to, but slow down and actually read the replies.

If Jesus had landed on earth WITH the saints to do battle against the world's armies that comes against Jerusalem to defeat them as prophesied in Zechariah 14:1-5, then how can this "first resurrection" happen when it took place AFTER the defeat of Satan when he was cast into the pit if these saints are supposed to meet Him in the air?

Jesus is on earth when Satan is in the pit. The battle is over. Then the first resurrection took place. Explain that or ask Him to explain that to you

Bladerunner · Mar 15, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Is what I said....you are reading it wrong. What you seeing in 20:4-5 (keep in mind the Tribulations are over). The martyrs that have died (three different groups) are of the 1st resurrection. The 1st resurrection also includes the OT Dead and those of the church that are raptured.

The 2nd resurrection is at the end of the 1000 years reign of Jesus Christ here on earth. It is called the "WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT".

You do know that if You are not raptured, then you do have a 2nd chance at getting into heaven by accepting Jesus Christ. Of course after the Rapture, the time period known as the Rapture/Tribulation Gap through all 7 years of the Tribulations/Great Tribulations, those that change their faith to Jesus Christ (Faith alone) will be Martyred.

Of course you could try and survive through the Tribulations/Great Tribulations. At which time you will be accepted in the millennium and given 100 years to accept Jesus Christ.

Otherwise, The White Throne Judgement will take care of all of your problems.

If you wish to discuss Revelation and what I and many others believe it actually means, let me know?

BlazyJon · Mar 15, 2017

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine Debunked

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So if the dead in Christ rise FIRST and... "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection", and we who are alive and remain do not precede them. Then I submit to you that pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is FALSE.

Yes the Lord will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, so consider:

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many trumpets are there in Revelation? Seven right? So I am pretty sure the Church will be present during the first Six. How do I know the Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet? I'll show you.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So it is obvious that if they "BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ", then you can tell it is the last trumpet as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52. And if the LAST trumpet then six need to blow first. But the day and hour the Lord returns is only known by the Father, so the angel could sound it at any time. And if he does then we who are alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air AS He is coming to Earth. And if we simply meet Him in the air as He is coming to Earth, to stand on the Mount of Olives, won't we.............."Always be with the Lord"?--1 Thessalonians 4:17

Consider this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

In 1 Thessalonians it spoke of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In 2 Thessalonians it speaks of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing these letters to the same people.

Consider this:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Left where? Left with the birds...or...eagles. And if you check the context of Revelation 19:21 you will see that the Lord fully returned; it is quite obvious.

Romans 8:17

and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

The word suffer is not a typo.

http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com

Enow · Mar 15, 2017

BlazyJon said:

Hold up a bit... you are overlooking the other descriptions that places only saints coming out of the great tribulation as being resurrected.

Revelation 20:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

See that underlined? That means referring to saints which were under the oppression of the great tribulation that had been killed; no O.T. saints nor any other saints are a part of that resurrection.

Then ask God these 2 questions;

If the "first resurrection" happened after Jesus had been on earth and had defeated the world's armies and had cast Satan into the pit, how can this "first resurrection" meet Jesus in the air when He had been already on earth?

Then ask God whom were the saints that came back with Him when He had set foot on the mount of Olives in doing battle against the world's armies in Zechariah 14:1-5 BEFORE casting Satan in the pit?

Then you have to consider that Revelation 20:4-5 is about how the resurrection of those saints coming out of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead will be resurrected later on. That is all first is to be applied. It is not saying it was the only resurrection, but the resurrection of the saints of the great tribulation will happen first before the rest of the dead will happen later on.

Yes the Lord will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, so consider:

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many trumpets are there in Revelation? Seven right? So I am pretty sure the Church will be present during the first Six. How do I know the Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet? I'll show you.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So it is obvious that if they "BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ", then you can tell it is the last trumpet as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52. And if the LAST trumpet then six need to blow first. But the day and hour the Lord returns is only known by the Father, so the angel could sound it at any time. And if he does then we who are alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air AS He is coming to Earth. And if we simply meet Him in the air as He is coming to Earth, to stand on the Mount of Olives, won't we.............."Always be with the Lord"?--1 Thessalonians 4:17

Consider this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

In 1 Thessalonians it spoke of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In 2 Thessalonians it speaks of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing these letters to the same people.

Consider this:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Left where? Left with the birds...or...eagles. And if you check the context of Revelation 19:21 you will see that the Lord fully returned; it is quite obvious.

Romans 8:17

and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

The word suffer is not a typo.

Click to expand...

http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Satan has been defeated and cast into the pit. That means Jesus is on earth when this "first resurrection" is to take place. Those that are of the resurrection of saints coming out of the great tribulation are not meeting Him in the air.

MattTooFor · Mar 16, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Whether you impose your "tribulation saints" false doctrine or not...doesn't change the fact that the first resurrection does not occur until after the Great Tribulation when, as even you concede, there ARE martyred saints.

Therefore, if there is NO resurrection prior to this...then there could NOT have been any resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture.

But that's an impossibility for PreTribbers. You can't have a "rapture" that isn't accompanied by a "resurrection".

The conclusion is simple: There IS NO "PreTrib" rapture. It doesn't exist. Never has. Never will.

This false doctrine is ABSOLUTELY non-existent on the pages of Scriptures. No one can say "open up your Bibles to xyz passage and let me teach to you PreTrib rapture."

MattTooFor · Mar 16, 2017

Enow said:

What difference does that make to the simple fact that the first resurrection is of martyred believers after the Great Tribulation? It makes no difference at all. This is STILL the "first resurrection"...which means there was NO resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture...which, in turn, means...THERE IS NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!

Feel free to take your time and develop your thoughts. I'm just not following you so far.

Not sure if you meant to say exactly that but no...it isn't only resurrected believers. There are plenty of believers who actually survive the Great Tribulation and do not experience death. Hence, Paul's promise that not all will "sleep".

First of all, you believe Jesus "landed on earth with the saints"? When did that happen? Not that it matters much either way. But you would be hardpressed to actually prove there are believers who come through the Great Trib and then go back to earth during the remainder of the 70th Week.

Secondly, the Bible is allowed the same latitude as any other literature which we routinely interpret in a historical, literal, grammatical fashion. So yes, there IS some minor jumbling in the sequencing and NO, not every, single solitary aspect and detail of the concluding events of the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the final 'mop-up'...are all included in this short passage. As you were saying, take a deep breath -- lol!

You ask about OT saints. Right. And where, as another example, is any mention of the believers who WEREN'T martyred and who survived the Great Tribulation? Why is there no mention of them being included in the "blessings" afforded those who are in the "first resurrection"?

According to your interp method, that should be viewed as a horrific oversight.

When it talks about the Devil being thrown into prison...why is there no mention of the Antichrist and his prophet also being cast away? While we're at it -- why is there no mention of the Magna Carta?

Answer: Because the author is choosing to emphasize that which he chooses to emphasize just in that short passage. The Bible is afforded a reasonable latitude that is extended to any other literature. The author is emphasizing the way he chooses. Again though, within reasonable parameters...but just the same as any other literature.

And if we're going to apply your hyper-literalism (which is how I see it) and insist the passage is viewed with a rigid sequence where everything MUST be viewed in the exact sequence in which it appears in the text...

...then what about those "thrones of judgment" which are handed out in verse 4 and previous to the mention of the first resurrection? The martyred saints don't get a crack at these judgment thrones...even with their elite status? In other words, this passage is not meant to be viewed with the ultra-rigid sequencing you want to impose on it.

Additionally (and since you mentioned the "OT saints") look at the statement in verse 6:

"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Are we to believe only martyred believers participate in the "resurrection" experience? That only martyred believers experience power over the "second death"? My understanding is that we need to view the "resurrection" experience the way the Bible apparently views it...that even though the author is choosing to emphasize the martyrs, ultimately here in verse 6, it seems quite clear that the resurrection experience extends to ALL those who are gathered at the time of the "coming of the Lord".

ALL believers (whether OT believers, NT believers who had passed on during the 2000 years of the Christian era, believers who survived the Great Trib, and yes, the martyrs) will experience receiving their "resurrection" body. This miraculous physical transformation which we glimpsed at the time of Jesus' resurrection.

BUT...the minor jumblings and adjustments to this short passage in Rev. 20 notwithstanding...ABSOLUTELY NONE OF IT offers even the slimmest hopes for "PreTrib" doctrine.

That's why I'm a little unclear as to what you think your objective here might be? No matter how much hyper-literalism you might hope to impose upon Rev. 20:4-5...NONE of it offers the slightest glimmer of hope for an alleged "PreTrib" rapture...because by no stretch of the imagination, nor in any way, shape or form can it be demonstrated in even the vaguest terms...that there might be some sort of "resurrection" previous to the entirety of the 70th Week.

Mind you, PreTribbers haven't even yet proven the existence of their doctrine to begin with. They have zero proof passages. They will simply take various NT passages that happen to mention the rapture...and without further ado, simply announce this is a reference to their proposed "PreTrib" rapture.

Anyway...those are a few thoughts!

Ahwatukee · Mar 16, 2017

Hello MattToFor,

What you are failing to understand is that, there in Rev.20:4-6 is just one phase of the first resurrection. The word "first" does not mean "only." It just so happens to be the one place in scripture where it is identified as the "first resurrection." All of the those resurrections that I listed previously in another post also belong to the first resurrection. Jesus initiated the first resurrection and it is still in operation, with the church being next. Those resurrected at Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints "only" who will have died keeping their testimony of Christ, the word of God and who will have neither worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This resurrection is not of the church.

MattTooFor · Mar 16, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Absolutely fabricated hogwash. Where do you get off at --LOL? You don't get to just go around making wild non-existent unbiblical assertions like that. Good grief.

Nowhere in Scripture is there any reference to a multi-part "first resurrection"...where various parts of this resurrection happen here and there. You're fantasizing, literally. Irresponsible nonsense.

I mean...that is the most unbelievable nonsense. And believe me...NONE of PreTrib's recognized luminaries have ever dared come forward with such a concoction. And with good reason: It would be laughed out of any debate hall. It's pure concocted craziness.

No, the way PreTrib's big-wigs have dealt with this is to not deal with it at all. You're on your own with such cockamamie nonsense.

Hey bro, I don't follow your posts around the discussion board -- LOL! If you want to make an argument, make an argument. But the sheer presumption here is just nothing short of comedic...to summarily declare that some list you've compiled somewhere needs to be understood to be belatedly included in the "first resurrection" of Rev.20!

I think something has gone badly wrong somewhere. Don't know if I can be the one to help you.

Enow · Mar 16, 2017

MattTooFor said:

There is no room for even a minor jumbling in the sequencing of event.

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This prophesy is about His coming at the end of the great tribulation. When He comes, He will go forth to do battle. His foot will set down on the mount of Olives, and when He does, He is coming with the saints to do BATTLE.

There is no meeting the Lord in the air in this event.

Revelation 20:1-5 is AFTER THE BATTLE when Satan is in the pit and then this so called first resurrection that you are meaning in error as literal as if that was the only resurrection when in grammatical usage it was only to defer from the rest of the dead that will be resurrected later on. That means the resurrection of the great tribulation saints will happen "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on. That is all Revelation 20:4-5 is to mean.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So the saints coming back with the Lord to do battle are the pre trib raptured saints and after it is all over with and Satan is in the pit is the time when the great tribulation saints gets resurrected which is to happen first BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on.

popeye · Mar 16, 2017

Enow said:

There is no room for even a minor jumbling in the sequencing of event.

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This prophesy is about His coming at the end of the great tribulation. When He comes, He will go forth to do battle. His foot will set down on the mount of Olives, and when He does, He is coming with the saints to do BATTLE.

There is no meeting the Lord in the air in this event.

Revelation 20:1-5 is AFTER THE BATTLE when Satan is in the pit and then this so called first resurrection that you are meaning in error as literal as if that was the only resurrection when in grammatical usage it was only to defer from the rest of the dead that will be resurrected later on. That means the resurrection of the great tribulation saints will happen "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on. That is all Revelation 20:4-5 is to mean.

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So the saints coming back with the Lord to do battle are the pre trib raptured saints and after it is all over with and Satan is in the pit is the time when the great tribulation saints gets resurrected which is to happen first BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on.

I would bet you can not tie the book of Ruth into Jesus and his bride.

Even though it is a vivid description of Jesus,his gentile bride,the Jew restored and the earth redeemed.

Your deal would most likely have that story spiritualized into some irrational jibberish. Lol

popeye · Mar 16, 2017

MattTooFor said:

What difference does that make to the simple fact that the first resurrection is of martyred believers after the Great Tribulation? It makes no difference at all. This is STILL the "first resurrection"...which means there was NO resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture...which, in turn, means...THERE IS NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!

Feel free to take your time and develop your thoughts. I'm just not following you so far.

Not sure if you meant to say exactly that but no...it isn't only resurrected believers. There are plenty of believers who actually survive the Great Tribulation and do not experience death. Hence, Paul's promise that not all will "sleep".

First of all, you believe Jesus "landed on earth with the saints"? When did that happen? Not that it matters much either way. But you would be hardpressed to actually prove there are believers who come through the Great Trib and then go back to earth during the remainder of the 70th Week.

Secondly, the Bible is allowed the same latitude as any other literature which we routinely interpret in a historical, literal, grammatical fashion. So yes, there IS some minor jumbling in the sequencing and NO, not every, single solitary aspect and detail of the concluding events of the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the final 'mop-up'...are all included in this short passage. As you were saying, take a deep breath -- lol!

You ask about OT saints. Right. And where, as another example, is any mention of the believers who WEREN'T martyred and who survived the Great Tribulation? Why is there no mention of them being included in the "blessings" afforded those who are in the "first resurrection"?

According to your interp method, that should be viewed as a horrific oversight.

When it talks about the Devil being thrown into prison...why is there no mention of the Antichrist and his prophet also being cast away? While we're at it -- why is there no mention of the Magna Carta?

Answer: Because the author is choosing to emphasize that which he chooses to emphasize just in that short passage. The Bible is afforded a reasonable latitude that is extended to any other literature. The author is emphasizing the way he chooses. Again though, within reasonable parameters...but just the same as any other literature.

And if we're going to apply your hyper-literalism (which is how I see it) and insist the passage is viewed with a rigid sequence where everything MUST be viewed in the exact sequence in which it appears in the text...

...then what about those "thrones of judgment" which are handed out in verse 4 and previous to the mention of the first resurrection? The martyred saints don't get a crack at these judgment thrones...even with their elite status? In other words, this passage is not meant to be viewed with the ultra-rigid sequencing you want to impose on it.

Additionally (and since you mentioned the "OT saints") look at the statement in verse 6:

"Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Are we to believe only martyred believers participate in the "resurrection" experience? That only martyred believers experience power over the "second death"? My understanding is that we need to view the "resurrection" experience the way the Bible apparently views it...that even though the author is choosing to emphasize the martyrs, ultimately here in verse 6, it seems quite clear that the resurrection experience extends to ALL those who are gathered at the time of the "coming of the Lord".

ALL believers (whether OT believers, NT believers who had passed on during the 2000 years of the Christian era, believers who survived the Great Trib, and yes, the martyrs) will experience receiving their "resurrection" body. This miraculous physical transformation which we glimpsed at the time of Jesus' resurrection.

BUT...the minor jumblings and adjustments to this short passage in Rev. 20 notwithstanding...ABSOLUTELY NONE OF IT offers even the slimmest hopes for "PreTrib" doctrine.

That's why I'm a little unclear as to what you think your objective here might be? No matter how much hyper-literalism you might hope to impose upon Rev. 20:4-5...NONE of it offers the slightest glimmer of hope for an alleged "PreTrib" rapture...because by no stretch of the imagination, nor in any way, shape or form can it be demonstrated in even the vaguest terms...that there might be some sort of "resurrection" previous to the entirety of the 70th Week.

Mind you, PreTribbers haven't even yet proven the existence of their doctrine to begin with. They have zero proof passages. They will simply take various NT passages that happen to mention the rapture...and without further ado, simply announce this is a reference to their proposed "PreTrib" rapture.

Anyway...those are a few thoughts!

You make less and less sense. You are one troubled dude.

You seem to have no ability to connect even the most basic dots.

popeye · Mar 16, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Whether you impose your "tribulation saints" false doctrine or not...doesn't change the fact that the first resurrection does not occur until after the Great Tribulation when, as even you concede, there ARE martyred saints.

Therefore, if there is NO resurrection prior to this...then there could NOT have been any resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture.

But that's an impossibility for PreTribbers. You can't have a "rapture" that isn't accompanied by a "resurrection".

The conclusion is simple: There IS NO "PreTrib" rapture. It doesn't exist. Never has. Never will.

This false doctrine is ABSOLUTELY non-existent on the pages of Scriptures. No one can say "open up your Bibles to xyz passage and let me teach to you PreTrib rapture."

You are so immersed in your deception,even verses brought forward have zero bearing on the spew that follows from you

Bladerunner · Mar 16, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Whether you impose your "tribulation saints" false doctrine or not...doesn't change the fact that the first resurrection does not occur until after the Great Tribulation when, as even you concede, there ARE martyred saints.

Therefore, if there is NO resurrection prior to this...then there could NOT have been any resurrection at the time of an alleged "PreTrib" rapture.

But that's an impossibility for PreTribbers. You can't have a "rapture" that isn't accompanied by a "resurrection".

The conclusion is simple: There IS NO "PreTrib" rapture. It doesn't exist. Never has. Never will.

This false doctrine is ABSOLUTELY non-existent on the pages of Scriptures. No one can say "open up your Bibles to xyz passage and let me teach to you PreTrib rapture."

MATTTOOFAR....can you tell me what your preferred interpretation of the Bible and the endtimes.
It is apparent that you do not subscribe to the Rapture Theology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PreTrib's insurmountable problem with "the first resurrection":

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