THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC JEWS

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Here are some points regarding refuting the notions of Hebrew Roots Movement/Messianic Jews/Armstrongites who might be peddling their false doctrines on this site.

I want to mention that I have no issue with individuals who observe Sabbath, festivals, "clean meat" laws IF they don't claim that observance is a requirement, condition, or necessary fruit of salvation, OR they don't claim that others are in sin for non-observance. The types and shadows of the Mosaic Covenant can be valuable to understand. However, many of these types of individuals are in fact making claims like this. They may phrase their responses to you in a manner that is intended to obfuscate in order to avoid being exposed as being one of those who believes these things, though.

As a former Judaizing Armstrongite, I often responded to others in a manner that used equivocation or obfuscation in order to avoid exposing myself as a judgmental legalist.

Here are some of the points you may want to consider:

1. The Mosaic Covenant is no longer in effect, and those that claim otherwise are false teachers (Acts 1, Galatians 3-4,
Hebrews 7-8, Ephesians 2:13-15, Romans 7:1-7, II Cor 3). It is an invalid operating system, as invalid as using DOS
in the Windows age. The Sabbath was one of the two signs of the Mosaic Covenant, along with physical circumcision
(Exodus 31). Note that the Mosaic Covenant was between God and ISRAEL, not God and mankind in general.

2. The Sabbath itself is a redemptive type; it symbolizes salvation and the "rest of God" which is entered into by placing
one's faith in Jesus (Matt 11:28-30, Hebrews 3-4). It is a "shadow" which represents a Reality, which is Jesus.
See Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17.

3. The day that one observes, if any specific day, along with abstaining or eating particular meats, is a non-essential which
Christian liberty allows one to resolve with his own conscience (Romans 14).

4. Paul didn't mention Sabbath-breaking or eating "unclean meats" in any of the sin lists of his epistles. It is inconceivable
that he would have failed to mention these issues in his "sin lists" to the Gentiles, if they were still a binding
requirement. Many new converts were slaves with Gentile masters, and this question would have came up.

5. The focus of Judaizers is not on justification by faith alone, and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. A contrast
is drawn in the book of Galatians which is very pertinent to this. Read the book of Galatians carefully. Note this
contrast.

6. Those who claim to keep the Mosaic Covenant are not keeping it. They are either liars, ignorant, or self-deceived.
The Mosaic Covenant REQUIRED observance of ALL the commandments related to it. The Mosaic Covenant was
one cohesive unit, and those who claim to observe it cannot pick-and-choose amongst commandments. See the
following verses: Deut 28:58-59, 29:29, 31:12-13, 32:46, 2 Chr 33:8. Note that "all the words of this law" are
commanded observances. How many of them go to Jerusalem 3 times a year to observe the pilgrimage festivals?
This is required according to Exodus 23:14, 34:23, and Deut 16:16. How many of them live in a Sukkoth or booth
for the seven days of the Feast of Tabernacles, as is required? I could go through a list of other requirements,
including isolating women during their menstrual cycle, that most of them would not observe.

7. The Mosaic Covenant was applicable to a particular group of people (ancient Israelites), in a particular time period
(from Moses to Jesus - see Galatians 3 - Jesus is the "seed"), in a particular land (Palestine), under a particular
system (a theocracy with a Levitical priesthood). Christianity is universal, and those factors no longer are constant.
Some believers, even today, are slaves who cannot rest on the Sabbath. Must they forfeit their salvation due to them
living in "persistent sin" if the Judaizer claim is valid?

8. Unlike Judaizers claim, Christians do not believe in living an immoral lifestyle. They do believe in obeying God's
commandments FOR THEM..not the ancient nation of Israel. Note that this is a common claim with Judaizers..that
those who don't keep the Sabbath don't love Jesus, because Jesus said that those who love him will keep his
commandments..well, believers DO keep the commandments of Jesus TO THEM, not the commandments that were
given to ancient Israel. Believers don't become physically circumcised to prove their love for Jesus, for example.

9. Note how John referred to the festivals as "feasts of the Jews" in his gospel. This language suggests inapplicability
to others (John 2:13, 5:1, 6:4, 7:2).

10. Judaizers are very prideful, contemptuous individuals in general. They may mask it and appear pious, but in reality
they are judgmental and view others with contempt. Former Judaizers know that this is true; they themselves
realize the pride and contempt that permeated their souls. That is why Paul's language in Colossians 2:16-17 is
pertinent. The Colossians were being judged by Judaizers, who would follow after Paul amongst the Gentile churches
like mongrel dogs seeking to lead Gentiles astray with their Judaizer teaching. Read Acts 15, Galatians, Philippians 3,
Colossians 2 with this in mind (the Colossae Judaizers had a proto-Gnostic flavor to their doctrine but they were still
Judaizers).

11. Read the New Testament, particularly the epistles, and ask yourself - what is the focus of Paul's message? Was it about
keeping the Mosaic Law, or was it about Jesus and Him crucified? This point, in particular, helped deprogram me from
the effect of the Judaizing Armstrongites. Their doctrines didn't line up with Paul's teachings. Jesus is the focal point.
The entire gospel message focuses on HIM and his cross work.

I was a Sabbath/festival/clean meat law observer for over a decade as an Armstrongite. I am well-aware of the arguments that Judaizers will counter with, in regards to these assertions. Like any heretical group that's been around for a while, they have developed explanations to continue propagating their heresies. If anyone is really disturbed by this topic, and is seeking to understand more on why the Sabbath, festivals, or clean meat laws are no longer applicable, feel free to send me an email at [email protected]. I would be glad to help you one-on-one, but I do not waste my time with endless arguments with Judaizers. I may occasionally debate them, but time is better spent talking to believers who are receptive, and not hardened, well-entrenched individuals.

Most of all, read the book of Galatians and Romans and make both of them your own. Read the books over and over again. Salvation is not earned, merited, or continued by obsolete commandments of the Mosaic Covenant. We are justified (brought into a right relationship with God) by faith ALONE and perfected by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, not observance of obsolete commandments of the Mosaic Covenant. I would also highly suggest the book "Freedom in Christ" by Meno Kalisher. Meno is a Messianic Jew who understand New Covenant concepts...he is very insightful.

Lest anyone claim I am disrespecting the Mosaic Covenant, I am not. It served a particular purpose during a particular time frame. It's purpose was to convict Israel of its sins, by displaying the righteousness of God in a very dim manner, and to point to Jesus in terms of the shadows and types. The well-informed Israelite should have been convicted by his sinfulness, and been ready to accept Jesus and the grace that is offered through Him and his cross-work. Paul and the other apostles would have used these shadows and types to preach the gospel to those who had receptive ears. The Mosaic Covenant should have prepared these Israelites, like a schoolmaster prepares his young students for more mature living (see Galatians 3-4). So, the Mosaic Covenant served a role in spiritual maturity for the Jewish nation, but it wasn't meant to be the enduring standard like Judaizers claim. They are basically like adult babies wearing diapers and sucking bottles, claiming that their diaper wearing and bottle sucking is the mature state of a believer. Or, like a preschooler who claims that his understanding of the world is superior to an adult.

I encourage the Judaizer to move past the bottle-sucking, diaper-wearing state and into the fullness of the New Covenant and the Law of Christ. And, I encourage seekers not to be deceived by those who may seem spiritual but are really bottle-sucking, diaper wearing babies.

gb9 · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

very good post. I have learned much from you over the last couple of years, as I knew very little about Hebrew roots , you have enlightened me, and I am sure others as well.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

An additional comment..there are underlying spiritual and moral principles that undergird the Mosaic Covenant which are still applicable, and the spirit-led believer can discern those, but the specific application to ancient Israel doesn't apply anymore.

God communicated with ancient Israel much like a parent or teacher would communicate to a young child, who is immature and incapable of understanding principles, but must be supervised more directly.

For instance, when we were preschoolers, our teacher walked us to the cafeteria to eat. She made sure none of us got lost along the way by having us all march in single file to the cafeteria, and supervised us from the classroom to the cafeteria and back.

It would be ridiculous for the teacher to treat a high schooler in the same manner, and to claim that being escorted from the classroom to the cafeteria and back is the superior way. However, in reality that's how Judaizers think. They believe the specific applications are continued requirements.

The role of the Holy Spirit is an important factor here. The NT believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. As a general rule, ancient Israelites were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the guide of the NT believer, not the Mosaic Covenant.

There is a very direct parallel between the Mosaic Covenant and the Holy Spirit. In fact, Pentecost for the Jews symbolizes the giving of the Mosaic Covenant on Mount Sinai. Pentecost for the NT believer is when the Church received the gift of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 2.

Judaizers will often ignore this parallel, but the parallel is clear. NT believers are led by the Holy Spirit, not the Mosaic Covenant. Paul himself points to this in his epistle to the Galatians in Galatians 5:16ff. It is not by accident that Paul brings up the Holy Spirit after addressing the Judaizers and their error. Additionally, II Corinthians 3 draws a stark contrast between the ministry of the Spirit, which Christians are under, and the ministry of the law (which was called a ministry of death and condemnation).

The issues here are very plain and very important. Do not allow Judaizers to fool you and to suck away your joy. Unlike the image they try to present, they are not the superior, knowledgeable ones..they are sucking on bottles and wearing diapers.

Grace777x70 · Apr 2, 2017

I agree 100% with the OP. What he is talking about is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God which is in Christ's work.

If anyone comes with the message that "You must now follow the law of Moses as in observing the Sabbath or feasts days - if you do not - then you are dis-obeying God and sinning."....

..if you hear this - run from it because it is an anti-Christ belief system just like the Judaizers that came in to the Galatians and tried to get them to follow the law of Moses only their route was by circumcision.

Some today try to do it by saying we need to keep the Sabbath as talked about in the Law of Moses as in a certain day - Saturday. Some do it by not eating certain foods only which is a sign of the those falling away from the faith ( 1 Tim. 4:1-5 )

Paul said that he did not stand for the Judaizers message for one hour so that the truth would remain with them. Gal. 2:5

Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

Grace777x70 · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

I also want to say that I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all being the same.

As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning. They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now as in the keeping of a commandment.

This group has excellent teachings on how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

I would also like to point out that Judaizers also reflect their unsound thinking by their obsession with conspiracy theories and peripheral false teachings.

For instance, many of them have a very distorted view of church history. Their view is more or less a massive conspiracy theory that seeks to discredit Christianity, usually with Constantine and the Roman Catholic church on center stage. It is divisive at it's heart..seeking to separate itself from Christianity and to accuse non-observers of being unsaved, spiritually inferior, or ignorant. Often, the label of "pagan" is leveled against non-observers.

The reality is that virtually no Christians were observing the Sabbath by AD140 due to being ejected from the synagogues by unconverted Jews. The events behind this related to the destruction of Jerusalem. According to Eusebius, Jewish Christians left Jerusalem after being warned to leave it prior to the siege by Titus in AD67. They were viewed as traitors after that, and the Eighteen Benedictions were supplemented to add an additional benediction which in effect denied Jesus as Messiah. Conscientious Jewish Christians could not recite this benediction so they were excluded from synagogue worship. Additionally, a false messiah called Simon bar-Kokhbah staged a revolt about AD135. Jewish Christians obviously were not going to support a false messiah, so they suffered heavy persecution, including mutilation, due to this refusal. So, the vast majority of Jewish Christians were not attending Sabbath services by AD140. Samuele Bacchiocchi, who is a Seventh Day Adventist and a "hostile witness", acknowledged that this was true, and that the SDA belief that the pope "changed the Sabbath" was nonsense, although Sabbathkeepers continue to believe it.

These events happened almost 200 years before Constantine, the typical boogie-man of Sabbathkeepers. It is true that Constantine mandated at Sunday rest for soldiers and agricultural workers on Sunday, but he did not prohibit rest on Saturday. Constantine ends up being the boogie-man for all kinds of heretics, including anti-Trinitarians and those who challenge the canon of Scripture. I agree that he may not have been saved, but his decisions didn't affect the council, in fact his preferences were overridden..he was an Arian and didn't believe in the full deity of Jesus, but the bishops would not yield to either him or other Arians in supporting the full deity of Jesus.

Roman Catholics may claim the church "changed the Sabbath" to Sunday but this claim is a joke, just like their claim that the first pope was Peter. The bishop of Rome had no such power in that time frame.

It is true that the Council of Laodicea ruled that Judaizers were anathema in AD363 but I suspect that ruling was meant to suppress those who claimed that observance of the Mosaic Covenant was a requirement of salvation, much like Judaizers today are doing, and that the ruling was merited. While I don't believe those who want to observe the Sabbath, because they appreciate the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant, or that wanted to continue relating to their Jewish family members through the common worship day and festivals, should be denied the ability to do so, I suspect that the church council was addressing Judaizing troublemakers rather than those who wanted to observe the Sabbath and didn't make such false claims.

Regarding other unsound thinking of Judaizers, many of them buy into nonsense like the Hebrew pictographic alphabet assertions of Jeffrey Benner. Benner is an engineer who claims that one can convert Hebrew words into the more primitive pictographic alphabet and derive meaning from the word-pictures that this conversion renders.

Benner's Hebrew pictographic view has been refuted by Christian Messianic linguistic scholars like Michael Brown, but many Hebrew Roots/Judaizer types still continue to propogate these teachings. No reputable Hebrew scholar with formal linguistic training supports Benner's assertions, but Judaizer types are still claiming it's true.

And, many Judaizers claim that the NT was written in Hebrew originally, either in whole or in part, and then converted to koine Greek, although there is absolutely no manuscript evidence of this.

Additionally, some of them deny the full deity of Jesus, the Trinity, and the inspiration of Paul's writings (for obvious reasons).

What kind of credibility can one assign to individuals who reflect a paranoid, divisive nature like is common amongst Judaizers? We each have to answer that for ourselves.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I agree with this. The real acid test for me is if the person claims that non-observance of the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws is a sin, whether it's a sin of ignorance or not. And, if they are constantly talking about Christianity being "pagan" and in error, and seeking to discredit it.

Unfortunately, I find this more the rule than the exception, though. It is definitely how Armstrongites think. It is how many Hebrew Roots Movement/Messianic Jews think.

I would fellowship with Meno Kalisher's assembly and they are Sabbath/festival observers without judging Christians as neo-pagans. There are several individuals on the site that I would not fellowship, though. I wouldn't fellowship with someone who had my same attitude 20 years ago either

The question is, do the believe that they are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone by the grace of God alone? Do they claim the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect, or obsolete commandments of the Mosaic Covenant such as Sabbath, festivals, new moons, clean meat laws or physical circumcision? Or, do they simply observe them because they value the types and shadows of the Mosaic Covenant, and their NT reality? Are they Christ-centered? Do they mention "Torah" more than they mention Jesus? Are they engaged in accusing others of being neo-pagans, either directly or indirectly? A lot of these groups are sly about their words until they get you hooked, then when you're one of the group, they show you their true colors. They are more subtle when they are speaking in a forum where they can be exposed by knowledgeable Christians, too.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

My email is actually [email protected].

JesusRules1 · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

In the Old Testament were the spiritual laws,the ten commandments,and any laws to do with loving people,and moral laws,and the physical laws,ordinances.

Without them being able to receive the Spirit,who was not available until Jesus shed His blood,they could never live up to the spiritual laws,so God had them do physical laws,ordinances,that they had the power to keep,until Christ came.

Also in the Old they did not love people perfectly,for God allowed them to war against other people,which is justified for that is the way God operated in the Old,but the people they warred against,and the people God allowed to be put down,were people hurting other people,trying to go against Israel,war,and perverting her from the truth,and spreading their wicked ways,which the put down of them actually caused good for the people that they went against,and more people benefited than the people put down,but in the New,God said that wars come from people,and not Him for He does not operate like that in the New,and in the Old,God allowed the blessing of monetary and material blessings to Israel,which in the New,having food and clothing be content,and if anyone believes that God blesses with material and monetary gain,and teach such,withdraw your self from them,and that is why Jesus said,a new commandment I give you,that you love one another as I have loved you,for in the Old they could war,and have material and monetary blessing,but at that time it was justified by God,but in the New is not,and a deeper love for people in the New for they cannot war,and have to help the poor,and also they have the Spirit and can love perfectly.

God had them do physical ordinances for they did not have the power to keep the spiritual laws perfectly,not being able to receive the Spirit,although they had to keep the spiritual laws,but could not keep it perfectly,and the blood of animals kept their sins covered until Jesus came and washed them away completely,but in the New with the Spirit we have the power to keep the spiritual laws,and love works no ill towards their neighbor;therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

In the New Testament the physical laws,and ordinances,do not take place,for we now have the power to keep the spiritual laws by the Spirit,mainly to love people which is the fulfilling of the law,and that is why Jesus took the physical ordinances out of the way,nailing them to His cross,for they were contrary to us,in that they did not provide any benefit towards the end result of what God was trying to accomplish among people,spiritual salvation,and have no bearing on our salvation,for they were only a shadow of things to come,temporary,until Jesus came,and the body is of Christ by the Spirit,and following the 2 greatest commandments,love God,and love people,and Jesus broken down the middle wall of partition between the Jews and Gentiles,having abolished in His flesh the enmity,even the law contained in ordinances,and made of them one new man,and the observance of love God,and love people,and not the physical laws,which the Gentiles that did not have the words of God had the universal law,creation testifies there is a God,who loves people,and covers love God,and love people.

We do not have to keep any laws of the Old Testament but the spiritual laws,love God,and love people,and moral laws.When the rich man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life,Jesus pointed out the laws of love towards people in the ten commandments,and did not make one mention of any physical ordinance.

Like people point out,if they want to keep the sabbath that is their business,but they cannot tell anybody else to do it,for it is not required in the New for it is spiritual,and not physical.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

When a person receives the Spirit they are obeying the sabbath,for they are accepting that spiritual rest,and is a requirement to be saved and keep that sabbath,for we know we have to have the Spirit to be saved,like it was required in the Old to keep the physical sabbath.

Yet a lot of people would not hear,even when the Bible points out that Jesus took it out of the way.

Yahshua · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

Unfortunately the problem I often see is we all form into factions and use the scriptures as a tool to prove and defend our doctrines, instead of allowing the scriptures to lead us to correct doctrine. Then through pride, we harden our minds and hearts and get offended (or feel judged) at anything that sounds contradictory to the position we've established or have been taught, and lest we appear foolish for being wrong, we fight against it. There can be no growth this way.

Particularly regarding the topic of this thread (and using your analogy in the OP), what has happened for roughly 2000 years is new believers are immediately enrolled as seniors in high school when they register; told that they don't need to attend elementary school to learn the basics of the faith because they're told it's not necessary to learn anymore; taught by teachers who - themselves - were taught the same thing; to skip elementary school.

...they begin at calculus so to say (i.e. Paul, barely even reading the gospels) without learning the basic math (i.e. law of Moses); why 1+1=2. And anyone who's ever taught a class knows students can reach a completely different answer if they don't have a *strong* foundation in the basics of a subject first. But the different answers they're taught is accepted as correct because their teachers learned the same exact way, never gaining a sure foundation in the basics themselves.

So then we have an entire school of thought that develops in teaching new believers, that most accept as the right way (because they don't know any differently). Those who don't accept it either drop out of the faith altogether or decide to start their own school (i.e. Denomination), but because they still lack the correct foundation, never being properly taught the basics (i.e. oracles of God), even their lessons are just as incorrect...but the cycle continues on and on, over and over until we have over 20,000 different denominations all professing to teach the right lessons.

I mean, what book (story or text book) should be read starting half way through? And yet that's how we were taught to study the scriptures? It's why books like Revelation makes no sense to most believers. Revelation is like college calculus (or "differential equations") meant to use all of our previously learned knowledge as a foundation. For instance, there are things revealed in Revelation that only those who understand the feasts of the Lord would pick up on, found in Leviticus; feasts God told his people to remember throughout their generations. But most have no clue about them and so the revealed end time plan of God, which he gave specifically to his servants to understand, is effectively gibberish. God said "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge".

----

But then just as bad, we have believers who go backwards and think the answer is to focus solely on the basics as if the high school lessons (i.e. the revealed Christ) don't exist, so they never grow either. These are the group of "babes" Paul was contending with. So of course his focus would be in teaching the high school calculus of truth to them, because they *already* had the basics and so could better understand what he was teaching; lessons that had never been written down before; lessons they needed in order to reach the next level in understanding.

Meanwhile, proponents of skipping straight to the high school lessons of the faith will take something Paul says to those people out of context as proof that elementary school should be skipped.

----

So today we have over 20,000 groups that have skipped elementary school, and another dozen or so "roots" groups that avoid high school. And both groups clash with each other claiming they're the ones who are right.

When will we see that the branch of Ephraim and the branch of Judah are prophesied to merge together and be one stick?

Ezekiel 37:16-17
"Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.' Join them together into one stick so that *they will become one* in your hand."

----

For me particularly, I am a proponent of starting at the root of the faith because that's how I learn; in order: master the basics first, and then allow all of the revealed truth in the 2nd half of scripture to guide me on through to the end of the very last book. And wherever God ordains I am placed at the end of days is where I'll wind up.

To God be the glory either way.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Here's a great article on the Sabbathkeeping issue, which relates it to the Mosaic Covenant and the fact that it is no longer applicable. The article is written by an ex Seventh Day Adventist:

Cherry-Picking the Commandments - Christian Research Institute

The author points out how some Christians compromise their ability to engage the Judaizing variety of Sabbathkeeper by their own assertion that the Ten Commandments as a whole are still applicable. The Ten Commandments are part of the Mosaic Covenant, and, as a whole, are not applicable to a New Covenant Christian.

I highly recommend reading this article and the Scriptures he refers to, in order to understand some major issues that are of importance in this discussion.

My remarks are not meant to disparage those who observe the Sabbath, festivals or clean meat laws who don't claim they are conditions, requirements, or necessary fruits of salvation, and do not claim others are in sin for non-observance. I have respect for such believers who observe these things due to their appreciation of the types and shadows of the Mosaic Covenant, or to remain connected with Jewish family, friends, or potential converts. I am addressing Judaizers and not these individuals, and warning seekers about the issues with the Judaizer position.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Yahshua said:

I would agree that Christians need to understand how the Law of Moses reveals Jesus and how the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant are very important. I would recommend the book "Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses" by Vern Poythress in this regard to anyone who wants to develop that understanding.

I would point out, though, that the book of Galatians proves that Gentiles didn't need to submit to the Law of Moses in order to build this foundation...they could learn the essence, or building blocks, of Judaism through hearing and not through direct experience. There was an ADVANTAGE in Judaism, in that it prepared the Jew for understanding how Jesus fulfilled the law, and how various aspects of the Law pointed to him, but it wasn't necessary for the Gentiles to build this foundation. The Scriptures I mentioned regarding the applicability of the Mosaic Covenant to the New Covenant believer would be my support for this assertion.

Also, Ephesians 2:13-15 says that Christ tore down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile by abolishing the law of commandments...this is referring specifically to the Mosaic Covenant, but I think the "separation commandments" may be in the back of Paul's mind as he was writing this..namely, laws such as calendar observances like Sabbaths, festivals, and new moons, clothing laws, and clean meat laws, all of which created a distance between Jews and Gentiles socially...as an example of this, I would cite Acts 10 where Peter obviously associated eating unclean meat with being defiled spiritually, and considered Gentiles to be defiled spiritually due to their dietary habits.

As an aside, I believe due to observance of these "separation commandments", modern day Judaizers distance themselves from non-observers and adopt a judgmental, condescending attitude toward non-observers due to this. One would only need to interface with Judaizers to observe this, or even watch some YouTube videos of such individuals. And, I will admit that as a Judaizer, I had a similar attitude..one of contempt toward non-observers as ignorant...considering myself superior to them..basically I considered them to be unsaved. This is something which is very shameful and is one of the primary reasons why I address Judaizers strongly. After I got to know non-observers better, I realized how pitiful and naked I was spiritually compared to them...I was living on cheese and crackers, and thought I was eating prime rib in terms of spiritual food.

Additionally, in today's world, the groups who are involved with Sabbath/festival/clean meat law observance tend to be very judgmental toward the rest of Christianity and hold very bad doctrines, including the rejection of the full deity of Jesus, Paul's writings, and justification by faith alone, as well as accepting extra-biblical revelation from non-canonical books. Many also don't understand or believe in justification by faith alone, which is the main point of Galatians and Romans.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind fellowshipping with a SOUND, Christ-focused fellowship that observed the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws, but there's no way I would fellowship with any of the ones I've seen in this area, because they are largely populated with Judaizers or whackos who buy into conspiracy theory and false views of church history. I find this to be the rule rather than the exception. Armstrongites, for example, believe that they will become God in the resurrection, and that they are the true Church, and they are the primary groups around here that observe their version of the Sabbath and festivals (which don't align with Hebrew Roots/Messianic Jews exactly). And, to be honest, a lot of the people on these forums are similar in terms of their weirdness. I don't think Jews for Jesus or some of the other Messianic Jew groups are weirdos, but many are. I would rather belong to a productive, Christ-centered church that doesn't practice these things, than belong to a group of weirdos. Additionally, I would hope seekers and new Christians would veer away from such loons.

But, I can sympathize with your view, however, like I said, it's apparent from Scripture that while helpful, it is not necessary to go through spiritual pre-school like the Jews did in order to be saved. I suggest that anyone read Galatians for an affirmation of that.

In fact, I suggest reading Hebrews, Colossians, and Galatians in tandem and think about these themes:

1. The law is called "weak and useless" in both Hebrews and Galatians (Galatians 4:9-10, Hebrews 7:18).
2. The phrase "elementary principles" and "elementary doctrine" both refer to the fundamental concepts of Judaism,
which included the types of things I am mentioning. I know that on some level Gentile religion also had comparable
concepts that may have been alluded to in Galatians, but the primary meaning related to the Mosaic Covenant. These
phrase are referring to the ABC's or "building blocks" of Judaism for the most part. See Hebrews 6:1-2,
Colossians 2:20, Galatians 4:3, 9 for this similar language. CONSIDER CONTEXT. By the way, there were some
Jewish believers in the Galatian churches, so it was a mixed crowd (see Acts 13, 14 and research the city names
mentioned to prove this).
3. Note that days and foods are alluded to in multiple places (Hebrews with regards to the Day of Atonement,
4:10, Colossians 2:16-17).

Therefore, one should read Hebrews, Galatians and Colossians in tandem to see that they are all addressing various aspects of Judaism. With Colossians, this Judaizing element included a mixture of proto-Gnosticism, and Galatians was a mixed audience of Jews and Gentiles - I do not deny this. However, the overall concept of Judaizing is a common thread.

Some may claim Hebrews 6:1-2 is talking about the fundamentals of Christianity, but my understanding, due to the use of the word "washings", is that it is actually talking about Judaism and the foundations which pointed toward Christ. This view is shared by reputable sources. The author of Hebrews was addressing the "pre-school" of Judaism which pointed toward Christ.

Also, beware of the attempts of Judaizers to attempt to re-define context. For example, some of the ones I've discussed issues with claim that Acts 15, Hebrews 7-8, Romans 7:1-7, Ephesians 2:13-15, Galatians, and Colossians are not talking about the Mosaic Covenant, but some other law-code...sometimes the Halakh or oral law of Moses, or the "traditions of the elders". These arguments can be easily refuted and are not true. It is true that the oral law of Moses or the "traditions of the elders" were the context in some of the encounters with Jesus and the religious authorities of is day, but not the context of the above verses.

oldethennew · Apr 2, 2017

some of the Thread starters comments:

I encourage the Judaizer to move past the bottle-sucking, diaper-wearing state
and into the fullness of the New Covenant and the Law of Christ. And, I encourage seekers not
to be deceived by those who may seem spiritual but are really bottle-sucking, diaper wearing babies.

they are sucking on bottles and wearing diapers.

What kind of credibility can one assign to individuals who reflect a paranoid, divisive nature
like is common amongst Judaizers?
===================================================
'see why we abhor man-made-boxes-and-lists'?

as far as we are concerned, when any adult, who claims to be a Christian, speaks to vast groups
of people with such un-loving disrespect, whose hearts he certainly has no concept of, and so many
of them are daily, lovingly, honestly, seeking/searching for the right path to find/discover how to better
love/serve/obey their Maker from just where they happen to be right now in their precious-journey, -

we cannot help but to find your approach very dis-taste-ful, as well as so very
un-informed and incredibly 'judgmental'...

some intense 'soul-searching' is in order here...

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

oldethennew said:

I carefully drew distinctions in my thread regarding the specific audience I'm addressing. I am not addressing those who don't claim that keeping obsolete commandments of the Mosaic Covenant such as Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws, and physical circumcision are requirements, conditions, or necessary fruits of salvation, and do not claim that others are in sin for non-observance of these elements. I am addressing those who are making such claims, which is a significant number within the population I mentioned.

Additionally, my language isn't much different than Paul used in Galatians 3 and 4. Anyone who reads the verses can determine that Paul himself wasn't thrilled with Judaizers. Read Philippians 3:1-3 where he calls them "dogs". By this word, he did not mean friendly little puppy dogs, but he meant dirty, mangy, trash-heap scavengers who followed him around with their Judaizing false teachings everywhere he went.

By the way, I remember your remarks from the past..you are very critical of anyone who seeks to expose the falseness of Armstrongism or other Judaizers. I have no concern for your remarks, nor the remarks of your wife. It would be interesting to know your past, though, whether you're a former Armstrongite or what.

If you're a former Armstrongite, perhaps you buy into GCI's "you're included" philosophy that co-opts heretics into the body of Christ, claiming that heretics will inherit the kingdom of God. I think Matthew 7 is pretty clear in suggesting that there is a penalty for false teachers, so I wouldn't be defending them if I were you. Tolerance of severe doctrinal error is not a virtue, and Galatians indicates Judaizing is a severe error. See Galatians 1:6-7 where Judaizers were said to be preaching "another gospel" and "another Christ".

I will do anything I can to warn seekers about bad doctrine, especially if it's involved with my former worldview and I am able to address it.

And, even if such individuals are well-meaning, they are still leading people into doctrinal error, which has significant repercussions on one's understanding of Christianity, if not leading them into a damnable heresy.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

oldethennew said:

Additionally, I don't think I'd be so indignant on the behalf of Judaizers. Their perpetual habit is to criticize Christianity as uninformed, ignorant, and sometimes even unsaved. They are viewed by Judaizers as being heavily influenced by paganism. They are professional critics who are engaged in judging others.

It's funny, though, when someone levels criticism at them, how it becomes "persecution" and they are the "valiant persecuted defenders of the truth" and when they are leveling it at others, calling others pagans, they paint themselves as "speaking the truth". Unequal scales, double standards.

Concerning Judaizers, I am not ill-informed. I was one for over a decade and have interacted with them extensively, both inside Armstrongism and outside. I have heard their snide comments about other Christians. All one has to do is go to YouTube and you can listen to a lot of videos where their attitude is on open display.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

Here's one funny video that portrays this attitude. It might be a bit exaggerated as most of them wouldn't be dumb enough to be so open about their contempt, but it's still illustrative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4ZK0JgA8ig&index=1&list=PLpp6gpADZmIsFSMZU-fPrVvX-qB6W8gz3&t=14s

prove-all · Apr 2, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

John 5:22 (KJV)
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV)
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
-
Romans 14:13 (KJV)
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather,
that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:18 (KJV)
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels,
intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Psalms 143:2 (KJV)
And enter not into judgment with thy servant:
for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Psalms 39:1 (KJV)
I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue:
I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

Isaiah 45:9 (KJV)
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds
of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy
work, He hath no hands?
-
1 John 1:8 (KJV)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Ecclesiastes 10:12 (KJV)
The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious;
but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
-
Zechariah 8:23 (KJV)
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men
shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt
of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Matthew 23:24 (KJV)
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

sparkman · Apr 2, 2017

prove-all said:

John 5:22 (KJV)
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

1 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV)
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
-
Romans 14:13 (KJV)
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather,
that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:18 (KJV)
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels,
intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Psalms 143:2 (KJV)
And enter not into judgment with thy servant:
for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Psalms 39:1 (KJV)
I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue:
I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

Isaiah 45:9 (KJV)
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds
of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy
work, He hath no hands?
-
1 John 1:8 (KJV)
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Ecclesiastes 10:12 (KJV)
The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious;
but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
-
Zechariah 8:23 (KJV)
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men
shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt
of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Matthew 23:24 (KJV)
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Yes, I agree..Judaizers judge others over gnats like the foods they eat and calendar observances. They love to judge others over days and food.

prove-all · Apr 3, 2017

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

-No burnt offerings or sacrifices orginaly given.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that
I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-no good standing with our Savior if you do not believe Moses and the prophets.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I
the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

If Paul taught against the law (which is not true) then he certainly wouldn't have worshiped
by believing those things written therein. Paul was not a deceiver by opposing his own beliefs
that he taught to others.

after Acts 13, Acts 26:7 (KJV)
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

-here Paul says that his hope to come, is in the promises given to the twelve tribes.

Romans 9:4
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

-the promises and the covenants of God, all the sonship and the glory, belong to Israel

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and [let my name] be named on them,
and [the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac];
and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth”
-

1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to
call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.

(Acts 23:6) Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees,
called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.
I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."

2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him.

(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

3. Paul called God's law holy.

(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy,
righteous and good.

4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means!
Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84
times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue,
and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.

8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this,
and said he does live according to the law.

(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call
a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law
and written in the Prophets,

10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded"
and hostile to God.

(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days
after joining the church.

(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that
cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.

(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority?
Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses:
“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God
is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us,
because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness,
and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness,

14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God
even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,
and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests
who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says
"you are not under law but under grace".

Millions of people quote this scripture, they almost always leave out the scripture
that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under
the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law
but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to
someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are
slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing
God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come".

Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's
sacrifice on the cross.(Colossians 2:16-17)

17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded
new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law,
instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 2:16) Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith
in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by
faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law,
were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul
had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

(Galatians 4: 8-11) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those
who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God
—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish
to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months
and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

- those weak and miserable forces where not Gods convocation

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation.
Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind,
and causes you to walk in them.(Hebrews 10:16)

(Hebrews 10:16) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,
says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant
and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you
may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:
and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:
a good understanding have all they that do his commandments:
his praise endureth for ever.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge:
but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

jaybird88 · Apr 3, 2017

i go to a messianic study group, the main focus is to praise and worship in the manner of the days of Jesus and the 12. there is no agenda that all other Christians are wrong and we are the only ones on the true path.

THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC JEWS

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