Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Johnny_B]

I like this 6 minute video explanation of predestination and the "elect". It is I line with the gospel message of John 3:16. God so loved the "world" that whoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

He is right and wrong, the we, us, our(s)elf, you(r)self) in all the epistles are written to the called/elect/saints so he is not talk as himself be a Jew, because he is addressing the Church the group as an individual Romans 2:29-30 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Individually we are conformed to the image of Christ, in His glorified body, each one of is called, justified and glorified, it's self explanatory. The idea Paul is calling himself a Jew is not what he is saying, when he did associate himself as a Jew was in. Philippians 3:4-6. The part that makes my wonder is when people say things that aren't true about people that, believe in the electing grace of God. Like why he said, "they sit around saying, He picked me and not my neighbor" if someone does think like that they are not elect. It's about understand the weight of our sin before a holy God and how you are powerless to please Him and you cry out, has mercy on me a sinner. You realize the only reason you can say that is because He caused you to be made alive/born again. It cause you to want to be holy before Him, to tell other people about the goodness of His grace insight of His righteous judgement on our sins. The idea of why evangelize if people are predestine is not what the Bible says about those that are.

As far as whosoever, John 1:12-13 "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

It's always God Ephesians 2:5 "made us alive together with Christ"

 

[Johnny_B]

The bible says GOD loved righteousness.Would GOD be just If some were pre-chosen to go to heaven or hell?

If a person answers yes to that question,wouldn't they be saying that GOD Is not just?

First let's deal with your presumption, where does it say that God predestines people to eternal judgement? No philosophy, Scripture in context.

 

[joaniemarie]

I really don't get into the predestination/election debate but I will chime in here. So my biggest issue with the above mentioned is, if we are already elected by God why in the world would anyone want to go out and evangelize? Why should I teach my son about God? Why would I pray for someone's salvation?

If everyone is already hand picked then there is no need for me to pray for anyone to come to Christ. Maybe it is a simplified view on my part but it is how I see it.

At the same time we are growing in faith to trust His love for us we are also therefore accepting His ways even though we don't know how He will accomplish such miracles., we are learning all the while too that it is by the Holy Spirit that we know anything about Him and that God wants us to participate and be co-laborers with Him while we are here.

Does He need us to do this? No., but we GET to do this and He set it up for us to do this life His way. His Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit yet again and puts within our hearts a desire to follow by faith. When we trust the Good Shepherd, we are willing to follow Him anywhere. And He has already shown us He will lead us into good green pastures., He saved us after all!!

Praying is communication with Him and when you love someone, you want to be in communication with them and learn more about them and their ways. And if we trust Him to do what He says, we know we need to obey Him and that is called the obedience of faith. God used someone to tell us about Jesus and the Bible says blessed are the feet Isa.52:7

[SUP]7 [/SUP]How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Why would we tell our kids about the ONE who loves us with the kind of love that saves us and restores us and provides for us?? Because we know how wonderful He is and we want our loved ones to also know how to live the best life there is and to be set free from any and all problems past present and future. We know life without Him is perilous and without security. Life without Him means being lost and going to hell.

We then learn too that our Father God loves our children more than we ever could. We know we can put no trust in the flesh. Why do we pray for other people's salvation? Because that is the way He planned it from the beginning. Who are we to try to human reason it out? He has saved us for a purpose and at the same time loves us with a purpose. We have purpose because of Him. Without Him we don't have a sure purpose. Without Him we are alone in the cosmos drifting from one confusion to the next.

 

[Johnny_B]

What is foreknowledge if it is not omniscient foresight?

Foreordaining, the idea that looks into the future and see who will believe and He elects them. Make the word elect of no effect, the one being elected has nothing to do with their election. We can not campaign before God, to get elected.

 

[wsblind]

Foreordaining, the idea that looks into the future and see who will believe and He elects them. Make the word elect of no effect, the one being elected has nothing to do with their election. We can not campaign before God, to get elected.

Election is not salvation or belief. Election is what we are elected for after we are saved.

We believe to be saved. We are elected to receive all the blessing's that come along with our salvation.

And remember.......faith is non-meritorious. I can't brag about my faith, everybody is saved by grace through faith. It would be akin to me bragging about how I swallowed my food. The merit is in the food, not my swallowing it.

 

[Johnny_B]

Not trying to rain on your parade or anything, but I question a person's salvation when they can't spiritually discern John 3:16.

New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Study Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Read it in context, John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

It answers lots of question about elect and the idea that if God elects those to heaven, He must elect those to hell, He does not.

Verse 17 He came not to condemn, but that the world might be saved, it does not say, could be saved. 18 Whoever believe not condemned, do not believe condemned already, God does elect anyone to hell, their sin has condemned them already, why? 19 Because they love darkness rather then the light, because their works were evil. 20 everyone/whoever hates the light, because they don't want their works exposed. 21 Whoever does come to the light, so clearly it can be seen, that their works "have been carried out in God? or as the HSCB translates it "accomplished by God" Those that believe it's God that gave them the right to become children of God. When ever you see, receive/believe it's in the context of,

John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." NIV "but they were born of God."

Who, whoever, whosoever, anyone, everyone, He gave them the power to believe/receive, not of themselves it's God, giving them the power to believe/receive. People love taking John 3:16 out of context, verse 21 is the final conclusion of it all and John set the stage for any mention of those that believe or receive, they are born of God that's who they believe or receive.

 

[Depleted]

I have not been on this chat in 3 years but I felt heavily compelled in my heart to write this today.


I have always struggled to make sense of the predestination verses. (Romans 8: 29-30, Matthew 11:27, Psalm 65:4, Romans 9, etc.) To make sense of it I tried to think that God chose people to be saved based of knowing the future and seeing people choosing Him, hence the “foreknowing” but now I know how flawed that way of thinking is. In regards to free will I used to think how God made the way of salvation clear and just waited for us to accept like a gift. I now know how flawed that way of thinking is as well.


Yes, these predestination verses helped me to better understand but I still fought against it because I didn’t want to believe that God would choose some and not others. Ultimately I wanted to believe that I had a choice. How selfish and prideful I was to think that way.


It was not a verse about predestination that opened the door to the truth but actually verses about our utter depravity of sin:
Psalm 53:2-3
God looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.



I have read these verses before but about 1-2 years ago these verses really hit home to how sinful I really am. We always want to find some kind of good in us, some kind of tiny little ray of light (even if it’s the act of choosing God) and to show God saying, “Look, I did this! I chose You!”


Ultimately that is pride. It is us trying to believe that we are capable of goodness outside of Christ. In reality that is not possible. Even as Christians we are filled with sin: our actions, out thoughts, even our prayers are tainted with sin. There is no escape, no explaining away, and no changing it. We are filled with sin at all times.


In addition, because we are always filled with sin, our base nature is to reject anything that is of Christ. We were born into rebellion and live on in ultimate rebellion before becoming a Christian. It is impossible for anything in us to choose the salvation of Christ. No matter how free, wonderful, loving etc…..it is impossible. Our sin nature would never allow it. Evil would never choose its destruction which is Christ.


That is how I finally realized that predestination makes sense. Because it is literally the ONLY way that I would ever “choose” salvation. It is the Spirit of God that has given me the desire for Jesus, and it is His Spirit that has given me the power to “choose” Him.


Yes, at the age of eight, I remember making a conscience decision to accept His salvation through faith. I remember my fear of my sin and hell, desiring His love, of wanting a Father. I remember choosing Him. But I have come to realize that these desires for Him were not of myself but of His Spirit through me. I had no say in the matter.
Then how do I marriage the two facts that I consciously chose Him but also knowing that it is only God that would give me the desire to chose Him to begin with?


I don’t know. Any you know what? I am ok with that. I trust God that He knows how it works and that gives me peace. Confusion is not always a bad thing. Sometimes you just have to lay it at the feet of Jesus and say, “Lord, You know.”
There is song that I have found by a Christian rapper named Shai Linne called “Election”. I highly recommend you give it a listen as it explains Election/Predestination quite well. I know you might have heard how free will is like someone who is floating out at sea and salvation is God throwing a rope at us and all we have to do is grab it. There is a part of this song that explains how flawed that line of thinking is:


“Some people say that we were drowning in the ocean
Barely floating until God threw us the rope then
Our free will helped us as we groped
Our faith is the hand that grabbed the rope and God put us back in the boat
Nope! Without apology I deny that analogy
Reality- we were dead at the bottom of the sea
I was a swollen corpse with hope no more
Until Jehovah the LORD dove from the shore to the ocean floor
Yeah, I was a corpse and I smelled like it
I’ll keep it simple, why did God choose me? Because He felt like it!
He brought me out, not an act of my volition
Breathed life into my lungs and didn’t ask for my permission”


I was a corpse at the bottom of the ocean. I could not grab that rope nor would I ever want to even if I could.


Honestly, I so glad that I had no say in my salvation. How awful would it be that God had to depend on our choice? That is like stripping power out of God’s hands and placing it in ours. Knowing how utterly sinful and disgusting I am, I am so thankful that it could only be by the grace of God that I could ever be saved. Depending on myself to accomplish any type of good is horrifying because I know that I am not capable of producing any good at all outside of Christ.


Lord Jesus, thank You!


I apologize for this being so long haha. It was just on my heart all morning as I was cleaning the house.

[video=youtube;JDSPwexlyTo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSPwexlyTo[/video]

It took me roughly the same number of years to get it too. lol

Now that you have it, might I recommend parts of the Bible that explain how you didn't really ever "choose" him? ("Choose" comes with weighing things out and making a decision. We never weighed it out. We accepted it was already done.)

You say Romans 8:29-30. Ahhhh, mannn! What's wrong with verse 28 that it didn't make the cut? Same paragraph even!

(Note my partiality to that verse in my signature. lol)

Try this though. Start at Romans 1:1 and work your way (in one sitting) up to Romans 8:29. The whole thing is directly connected. It's a list of everything Man has done, and everything Man has tried to get to the point of deserving God. None of it worked. That's why Romans 8:28-30. And most of Romans 9 is an answer to God's part on Romans 8:28-30. The whole thing is connected. (It's connected after there with "Then what do we do in response?"

And try John 3:16-21 on our condition versus God's condition. Or John 6:35-40, for the same thing.

It's really cool that God has explained it over and over again, but we take the longest time to see it. Once we see it, there are a lot of "Oh! It's there too!" in the Bible.

Ultimately this comes down to a word many don't get. God is "sovereign." Not the sovereignty of a king on earth, who has to have some agreement from his subjects and/or a large army. Pure, unadulterated sovereignty. The King wills it and it happens instantly. Not merely "it seems like it on the surface." It is it all the way through. Not our will. His will. And he will will us to want to do his will. So very cool!

(Now let me watch how many agree with you and how many will fight you tooth and nail because they want some way of deserving what God has given us. lol)

Welcome to the "By George, she's got it" Club!

 

[Depleted]

First, thanks for sharing. Second, how awful would it be if God chose not to "elect" many to salvation, but "elected" others. You stated that none is capable of doing good. That's true. We are not capable of doing anything good to win God's favour. Believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ because one understands his lost state, is not doing anything good, but trusting in the One who is good.

Believing is an action verb, not a state-of-being verb, so your premise failed.

 

[Depleted]

In Matthew 11:25-30 Jesus reveals Himself to whom He wills, they become aware of their heavy burden, and He bids them to come to Him, they find rest and they take upon themselves His yoke. This revelation and calling does not happen to each and every person who has lived, but, especially in America, people will call this "unfair". This is the Romans 9:20 man.

It is unfair. Fair would be to get what we deserve: separation from God, death, and hell. It is unfair that we don't get what we deserve, but the fair sentence was carried out on Jesus for whosoever God has chosen to commute what is fair! I like the results of that unfair!

 

[Depleted]

All the predestined who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved?

All the predestined are saved, so we call upon the Lord. We do squat, until we are regenerated. Dead people do nothing, until they stop being dead.

(Why does that sound like the beginning of a zombie movie? lol)

 

[Depleted]

I really don't get into the predestination/election debate but I will chime in here. So my biggest issue with the above mentioned is, if we are already elected by God why in the world would anyone want to go out and evangelize? Why should I teach my son about God? Why would I pray for someone's salvation?

If everyone is already hand picked then there is no need for me to pray for anyone to come to Christ. Maybe it is a simplified view on my part but it is how I see it.

Did God give you the list of who he elected? No? Nuts! Me either!

But aren't you feeling excited about this commuted death sentence? Don't you want to tell everyone else on Death Row the way out of the sentence? Don't you have some Lot in you that you want God to save the city even for a mere 10 who still trust God?

That's why! I will stop telling others the day God gives me the list. And even if that day ever comes, (which it won't), I'd still be headed for those he did choose, and begging for mercy for those he didn't. God didn't wipe out the Israelites because Moses begged for mercy. Apparently begging works sometimes. (Albeit, I suspect God already knew what he was doing before the begging started.)

 

[Johnny_B]

It is unfair. Fair would be to get what we deserve: separation from God, death, and hell. It is unfair that we don't get what we deserve, but the fair sentence was carried out on Jesus for whosoever God has chosen to commute what is fair! I like the results of that unfair!

Amen!!! Sister, we all deserve the deepest darkest, hottest, tortuous parts of hells eternal judgement!!!

Once a sinner realizes that we can never understand God, that's why God has to predestine, call, justify, glorify, because the natural man (sinner) can not understand the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned and you can only call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit or if you don't have the Spirit you can not call on the name of the Lord, our sin is so great, for us to even think about God, we continually says in our hearts, there is no God.

With what great love has the Father loved the Bride and the Son gave Himself for her, it's by grace that we are saved, because of His great mercy, by which He made us alive together with Christ, God blessed forever. Amen!!!

 

[Depleted]

I like this 6 minute video explanation of predestination and the "elect". It is I line with the gospel message of John 3:16. God so loved the "world" that whoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


Video removed so I don't help promote junk.

He should have stuck to a mere 10 words. 6 minutes to be wrong? He could have covered wrong in 10, unless you really expect us to buy that God is going to save everyone. And if you believe that, then you too are wrong.

You know what goes well with John 3:16? John 3:17-21!

[h=1]John 3:16-21 (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][h=4]Footnotes:[/h]

1. John 3:16 Or For this is how God loved the world

[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

What is foreknowledge if it is not omniscient foresight?

Predestination isn't foreknowledge or we'd just call it "foreknowledge."

 

[Depleted]

Nonsense.

Goodness sake, those passages are referring to the fact we will take nothing material with us at death and not about a second chance. Context next time maybe?

Reminds me of a joke.

A rich guy did figure out how to take it with him. So he reached the Pearly Gates with his big bucket of gold. Peter rolled his eyes and shouted over to the foreman of the road crew, "Peach keen! Got more pavement for you."

 

[Depleted]

The bible says GOD loved righteousness.Would GOD be just If some were pre-chosen to go to heaven or hell?

If a person answers yes to that question,wouldn't they be saying that GOD Is not just?

God's justice:
Anyone who sins deserves separation from God, death, and hell.

Got a problem with that? Yeah?

No kidding. Now aren't you glad for the other part of God's justice that says an innocent man can take on the punishment of the guilty man? That was done in Jesus.

Now, do you really want God's justice or his mercy? He gave one to many and both to some! Because God is the one choosing who gets what. We are all guilty! We justly deserve hell. Got a problem with that?

Personally? God is just for sending people to hell!

 

[joaniemarie]

I like this 6 minute video explanation of predestination and the "elect". It is I line with the gospel message of John 3:16. God so loved the "world" that whoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


[video=youtube;d4Ewsad_yEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Ewsad_yEk[/video]

This is very good too. I never quite heard it put this way about the "you" being the Jews and the "you" being the gentiles. All man kind have been given the offer. I don't know how it works but God does. Anyone who calls out to Jesus will be saved. It's a promise offered to all.

It's interesting too when you think of the other verses about there being a period in time when Jesus was first sent to the Jews.. A Canaanite woman whose daughter was cruelly demon possessed came begging Jesus to have mercy on her. Matt.15:22-28

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.”

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting [SUP][a][/SUP]at us.”

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

[SUP]25 [/SUP]But she came and began [SUP][b][/SUP]to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And He answered and said, “It is not [SUP][c][/SUP]good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.”

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But she said, “Yes, Lord; [SUP][d][/SUP]but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed [SUP][e][/SUP]at once.

I've heard this interpreted as "puppies" but that the main thought is it was not yet the time of the gentiles. This Canaanite woman must have heard enough about Jesus to beg for mercy for her child and persist at it having heard Jesus was kind and merciful to sinners.

So even though it was not yet the time of the gentiles Jesus saw her faith and in vs.28 said "O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish" and her daughter was healed at once.

It's encouraging too that we each have to come to that place as individuals although the offer is thrown out there to all. God is personal. We can't join a church and be saved. And God doesn't have any grand children. It has to be accepted individually by grace through faith IN Christ Jesus....for there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.

 

[Depleted]

Sooooo, Calvin.

Soooo, BIBLE!

 

[Depleted]

Then why were they invited?

[h=1]Luke 14:15-24 (ESV)[/h][FONT=&quot]15 When one of those who reclined at table with him heard these things, he said to him, “Blessed is everyone who will eat bread in the kingdom of God!” 16 But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. 17 And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ 20 And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So the servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’22 And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ 23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’”[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

The non-Christian will be guilty for their sin. None of us deserves to be saved, you agree? All deserves to be punished, do you agree? So is God obligated to save anyone? No. Is God in the wrong to save a few? No, we all deserve the same sentence.

(Just fixing for sentence. ) The Christian is equally as guilty of our sin. The big difference is who takes on the rightful punishment for that sin.