Does original sin exist?

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Nov 26, 2011
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i wasnt quoting Augustine, just going by what his doctrine teaches as i understand it.

i cant fully explain what Jesus was teaching with the kids. He is directing His disciples to the kids. but why?
IMO most kids dont fully get the blood sacrifice, nailed to the cross, the lamb and all the rest, yet here Jesus is telling His inner circle, the ones that know Him best, they still dont have it. there is something the kids have that we dont. maybe something we have in the beginning, lose and have to get back.
Young children simply trust the authority over them. That is how we are to be towards God, simply trust Him, give ourselves over to His care. We thus trust and yield and this is what Biblical faith is. We look to God as our Father and He looks to us as His children, if so we have real faith. That is what Jesus was teaching.

As for Augustine, he wrote this...

"Seewhat he has said. I, however, affirm that an infant born in a placewhere it was not possible for him to be admitted to the baptism ofChrist, and being overtaken by death, was placed in suchcircumstances, that is to say, died without the bath of regeneration,because it was not possible for him to be otherwise. He wouldtherefore absolve him, and, in spite of the Lord's sentence, open tohim the kingdom of heaven. The apostle, however, does not absolvehim, when he says: "By one man sin entered into the world, anddeath by sin; by which death passed upon all men, for that all havesinned." Romans 5:12 Rightly, therefore, by virtueof that condemnation which runs throughout the mass, is he notadmitted into the kingdom of heaven, although he was not only not aChristian, but was unable to become one."Augustine of Hippo, OnNature and Grace, Ch.IX.


"letus suppose certain twins, born of a certain harlot, and exposed thatthey might be taken up by others. One of them has expired withoutbaptism; the other is baptized. What can we say was in this case the“fate” or the “fortune,” which are here absolutely nothing?What “acceptance of persons,” when with God there is none, evenif there could be any such thing in these cases, seeing that theycertainly had nothing for which the one could be preferred to theother, and no merits of their own,—whether good, for which the onemight deserve to be baptized; or evil, for which the other mightdeserve to die without baptism? Were there any merits in theirparents, when the father was a fornicator, the mother a harlot? Butof whatever kind those merits were, there were certainly not any thatwere different in those who died in such different conditions, butall were common to both. If, then, neither fate, since no stars madethem to differ; nor fortune, since no fortuitous accidents producethese things; nor the diversity of persons nor of merits have donethis; what remains, so far as it refers to the baptized child, savethe grace of God, which is given freely to vessels made unto honour;but, as it refers to the unbaptized child, the wrath ofGod, which is repaid to the vessels made for dishonour in respect ofthe deservings of the lump itself?But in that one which is baptized we constrain you to confess thegrace of God, and convince you that no merit of its own preceded; butas to that one which died without baptism, why that sacrament shouldhave been wanting to it, which even you confess to be needful for allages, and what in that manner may have been punished in him, it isfor you to see who will not have it that there is any original sin."Augustine, Anti-PelagianWritings, Ch. XIV.

Those quotes are the fruit of a deceived mind.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
I don't recall Augustine speaking in theories.

but he did make a theory, little kids, that according to Jesus belong to heaven, DONT go to heaven but go straight to hell, because mankind, not the bible,says so. and Augustine believed this because he believed sons inherit the sins of their fathers which according to Ezekiel a son does not inherent the inequities of the father but is held accountable for his own actions, not others.

Nope, that was you who claimed babies might make it to heaven (although not cool to kill them to make sure.
Matthew 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

2 Sam speaks of Davids newborn son in heaven.

can you give me a scripture of a young child being sent to hell?
 

tanakh

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The sin nature exists and is passed on through the Male. That is why Jesus was born of a Virgin and is called the second Adam. In Genesis God told the Serpent that he would put emnity between him and the woman and between his seed and her seed. This is a prophecy about the virgin birth. It is the only place where a woman is said to have a seed everywhere else its men who have seeds.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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exists or has been fixed
(it is your own personal choice to make.)etc


Romans 5: Peace with God Through Faith
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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I used to believe in the Total Depravity doctrine of Calvinism even though I did not know what Calvinism was. I was influenced by Paul washer, Stewart Best and David Eells mainly.

My obedience to God was only ever partial in that I lived an outwardly moral life (never promiscuous etc.) and I upheld the Bible as true to people. Yet I was very compromised in my heart knowing that I willfully did wrong very often, ie. deceived people, turned a blind eye, compromised etc. I would listen to music I ought not to and would waste my time with ungodly past times. I also used to occasionally look at pornography and all that goes with it.

It wasn't until someone exposed to me what real repentance was and also the fact that Original Sin was false that I had a rethink and examined these issues. I could not refute the message I heard about a real repentance and actually dying to sin, being truly broken and contrite. Thus I took it seriously and changed my life and for the first time found a real victory over sin through the quickening power of God. Jesus Christ set me free indeed.

I didn't know much back then but since that time I have read and read the scriptures and pondered and pondered. When things began to become very clear I then delved into a lot of church history, read Calvin, Luther, Augustine, the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Wesley, Finney etc. I clearly see the deception that has grown and developed throughout history in regards to it, the bottom line that it attacks heart purity in salvation and thus a real redemption from all iniquity.

That is the context of what I write here for anyone interested.

So what you are saying is; We need Jesus to forgive us our PAST sins that we did prior to repentance?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Ephesians 2:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh...
We all were by nature the children of wrath.

Why is this so difficult? Pelagius was wrong and Augustine was right, according to the bible. Does this cause all of Pelagius theories to crumble? I don't know enough about his theories to say. Don't even care. We should always keep in mind that any man-made theology or theories could be partly or wholly wrong with some studying.

Simple truths we should all agree on. Original sin is a simple truth.[/FONT]
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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If original sin exists, then what is it? Is not original sin the ability to discern between good and evil?
Disobedience
Thinking we knew better than GOD what is best for us and listening to the wrong voice suggesting that we could know better than GOD what is best for us
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
If a person thinks they are like God. Commandment #1, there's probably some that do think that...
 
Nov 26, 2011
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So what you are saying is; We need Jesus to forgive us our PAST sins that we did prior to repentance?
The purpose of the death of Christ is to purge the conscience of dead works. Even a repentant sinner has a consciousness of their past sin which they cannot, of themselves, remove. Hence a return to obedience can in no way remit past sins.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

God is willing to forgive past sin on the condition of repentance and faith...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Yet the problem that remains is the conscience of the sinner. How can one whom is guilty stand before God in good conscience? The answer is, only through the blood.

The blood is not magical in anyway. God simply chose blood as the means of establishing a covenant...

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.


It is through the sacrifice of Christ that God expresses the true knowledge of righteousness to mankind. We see this alluded to in Isaiah...

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

God was satisfied with the travail of the soul of Jesus, His self sacrifice, the purpose of which was to bear our iniquities. He died in order to deal with our previous sins that they may be purged once and for all.

Look at how the context of how Jesus presented the cross...

Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Notice that Jesus presented His own sacrifice as an example to be followed. The death of Jesus Christ was an expression of the "righteousness of God" to mankind. Thus the repentant sinner PARTAKES with Jesus in the cross, and it is through PARTAKING that the cross has its power. We see this illustrated by Peter...

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Peter states...

"...that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Peter is speaking of the Ark of Salvation here and uses the example of Noah. Jesus was put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit, which was the MEANS by which he preached to the spirit in prison (sinners). God is patient with sinners during their disobedience and wants them to repent. God's patience during Noah's day is a type of his general patience with sinners.

Now look at what Peter says next...

"...he like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

It is the answer of a "good conscience toward God" combined with the "resurrection of Jesus Christ" which saves us. What is he talking about? Well we continue...

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

The cessation of sin is connected to suffering in the flesh with Jesus, that we no longer live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God instead.

Also look at this...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.







Now again read...

Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

That is the context of the cross in the Bible. Not what is being commonly taught today.

Look at what Paul wrote...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul identified with the cross as a practical reality in the life of a Christian, EXACTLY as Jesus taught it.

So do we need Jesus to forgive us our past sins that we committed before repentance? The answer is that we need the blood to REMIT our past sins by which our conscience is purged of a consciousness of sins, and this occurs through the fresh start granted under the New Covenant, a covenant we enter into via the blood of Christ, hence we are enjoined by the blood.

It can really be summed up with the words...

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
Jan 7, 2017
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See Romans 5:12-20 This is 1 passage that teaches Original Sin. You may want to look at Ephesians 2:3 Its says there that by nature we are Children of Wrath. Anyways, Original sin means that we are born in sin, our nature itself is sinful. Somebody once said that we are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. That simply statement is a good way to sum it up. Original sin also has implications, one of those is mentioned in the Ephesians verse I mentioned above, we are under the Judgement of God. The good news is that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for our sin by dying for us, we do however need to receive his death in order for it to apply to us.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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See Romans 5:12-20 This is 1 passage that teaches Original Sin. You may want to look at Ephesians 2:3 Its says there that by nature we are Children of Wrath. Anyways, Original sin means that we are born in sin, our nature itself is sinful. Somebody once said that we are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. That simply statement is a good way to sum it up. Original sin also has implications, one of those is mentioned in the Ephesians verse I mentioned above, we are under the Judgement of God. The good news is that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for our sin by dying for us, we do however need to receive his death in order for it to apply to us.
Nature in the Greek is "phusis" and it pertains to growth.

phusis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

The word does not pertain to "birth" in regards to a natural disposition. We know this because "phusis" is used to describe a disposition towards both righteous and wicked conduct in the Bible.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

As for Romans 5:12-20, that passage is representing Adam as the carnal man whom brought death to the world, and contrasting it with Jesus the spiritual man who brings life. It is not speaking of birth depravity or birth guilt.

That passage first began being used as a proof text for Original Sin around the Fourth Century when Augustine utilised the Latin Vulgates rendering of "in whom all sinned" to teach the Seminal Identity/Natural Head view that all souls were literally present in Adam, and thus were all corrupted in Adam. The Vulgate is in error for the Greek represents "for that all sinned."

Original Sin is very popular because people just repeat, without investigating, what they have been presented with.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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The good news is that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for our sin by dying for us
You didn't learn that from the Bible. You were told that by someone and you just believed it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus "paid the penalty for your sin" anywhere.

Jesus died on your behalf so that you can follow and abide in Him through which you can have union with God.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Young children simply trust the authority over them. That is how we are to be towards God, simply trust Him, give ourselves over to His care. We thus trust and yield and this is what Biblical faith is. We look to God as our Father and He looks to us as His children, if so we have real faith. That is what Jesus was teaching.

As for Augustine, he wrote this...

"Seewhat he has said. I, however, affirm that an infant born in a placewhere it was not possible for him to be admitted to the baptism ofChrist, and being overtaken by death, was placed in suchcircumstances, that is to say, died without the bath of regeneration,because it was not possible for him to be otherwise. He wouldtherefore absolve him, and, in spite of the Lord's sentence, open tohim the kingdom of heaven. The apostle, however, does not absolvehim, when he says: "By one man sin entered into the world, anddeath by sin; by which death passed upon all men, for that all havesinned." Romans 5:12 Rightly, therefore, by virtueof that condemnation which runs throughout the mass, is he notadmitted into the kingdom of heaven, although he was not only not aChristian, but was unable to become one."Augustine of Hippo, OnNature and Grace, Ch.IX.


"letus suppose certain twins, born of a certain harlot, and exposed thatthey might be taken up by others. One of them has expired withoutbaptism; the other is baptized. What can we say was in this case the“fate” or the “fortune,” which are here absolutely nothing?What “acceptance of persons,” when with God there is none, evenif there could be any such thing in these cases, seeing that theycertainly had nothing for which the one could be preferred to theother, and no merits of their own,—whether good, for which the onemight deserve to be baptized; or evil, for which the other mightdeserve to die without baptism? Were there any merits in theirparents, when the father was a fornicator, the mother a harlot? Butof whatever kind those merits were, there were certainly not any thatwere different in those who died in such different conditions, butall were common to both. If, then, neither fate, since no stars madethem to differ; nor fortune, since no fortuitous accidents producethese things; nor the diversity of persons nor of merits have donethis; what remains, so far as it refers to the baptized child, savethe grace of God, which is given freely to vessels made unto honour;but, as it refers to the unbaptized child, the wrath ofGod, which is repaid to the vessels made for dishonour in respect ofthe deservings of the lump itself?But in that one which is baptized we constrain you to confess thegrace of God, and convince you that no merit of its own preceded; butas to that one which died without baptism, why that sacrament shouldhave been wanting to it, which even you confess to be needful for allages, and what in that manner may have been punished in him, it isfor you to see who will not have it that there is any original sin."Augustine, Anti-PelagianWritings, Ch. XIV.

Those quotes are the fruit of a deceived mind.
you should get on well with him then :)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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You didn't learn that from the Bible. You were told that by someone and you just believed it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus "paid the penalty for your sin" anywhere.

Jesus died on your behalf so that you can follow and abide in Him through which you can have union with God.
I find that He paid the penalty for sin in Mark 10.45; 1 Pet 3.18
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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You didn't learn that from the Bible. You were told that by someone and you just believed it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus "paid the penalty for your sin" anywhere.

Jesus died on your behalf so that you can follow and abide in Him through which you can have union with God.
also Gal 3.13.? The curse was the penalty of sin
 
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MadebyHim

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2016
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Wouldn't original sin be pride, and rebellion by luci before Adam and Eve?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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You didn't learn that from the Bible. You were told that by someone and you just believed it.

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus "paid the penalty for your sin" anywhere.

Jesus died on your behalf so that you can follow and abide in Him through which you can have union with God.
Wait

that's half the story
where's the other half of the story?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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I find that He paid the penalty for sin in Mark 10.45; 1 Pet 3.18
And HIS resurrection attests to THE TRUTH that HE not only paid the penalty by HIS HOLY SACRIFICE, but by HIS VICTORY over death, we who believe are made alive by HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Wouldn't original sin be pride, and rebellion by luci before Adam and Eve?
CHRIST came to save what has become separated from GOD

salvation is promised only to mankind. That is, those who believe in CHRIST who came to open the way back to Heaven through the TRUE VEIL...Which is HIS BODY


Satan fell and forfeited his home
salvation is not promised to him
 
Jan 7, 2017
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So Jesus didn't pay the penalty for sin. That certainly is a sound teaching. The wages of sin is death, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Heb. 9:28 Christ was sacrificed to take away sins. So. I'm not really sure what you are talking about.