Amen!!! why would you even want to think of illogical ideas like that. So if all things are possible for God. Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it? Just because you can put words together in a sentence, doesn't mean it's logical. If God is light, can He make a place so dark that if He was there it would still be dark? When we know logically, darkness can not be where light is, light cancels out darkness..
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He's not using "if" as a continual clause, he's using it as a conjunction, but I'm sure you knew that. I don't understand why you would want to play word game with a brother. We are called to love one another, this is how we know if (conditional clause) some one is are born of God.
1 John3:9-10 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
1 John3:9-10 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
This is a good example of preservation or perseverance of the saints, Job was all ready a believer, so it was his free will to serve God. Where a sinner is a slave to sin John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."
Psalm 53:1-4 “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. 2 God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. 4 Have those who work evil no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon God?
Job was not like these he was a servant the Lord. While we are sinners we don't seek, think about, we hate and are at war with God, because like John 3:20 says.
Psalm 53:1-4 “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. 2 God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one. 4 Have those who work evil no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon God?
Job was not like these he was a servant the Lord. While we are sinners we don't seek, think about, we hate and are at war with God, because like John 3:20 says.
Wow...one of those moments just hit me where I saw a verse that I had read 50 times and never noticed. That part you underlined. I think it was this thread where we were talking about that very thing, but we didn't have this verse.
Makes me wonder too...if we strive and aren't gentle, patient and meek in our teaching or correction, we work against God while saying we are working for Him...it becomes apparent that we are defending our pride rather than praying He will give them repentance/turning back to faith in His word.
Makes me wonder too...if we strive and aren't gentle, patient and meek in our teaching or correction, we work against God while saying we are working for Him...it becomes apparent that we are defending our pride rather than praying He will give them repentance/turning back to faith in His word.
Slaves don't get to chose, they are directed John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."
Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
What are the called to? What are they justified from? What are they glorified for?
Romans 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
What are the called to? What are they justified from? What are they glorified for?
Psalm 8:3 "Salvation belongs to the Lord; your blessing be on your people!"
I don't understand why people want to take credit for God's work and steal His glory.
Psalm 10:3 "For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord."
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
I don't understand why people want to take credit for God's work and steal His glory.
Psalm 10:3 "For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire; he blesses the greedy and renounces the Lord."
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
That verse is in the same vein as I Peter 3:13-17 "Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil."
Jude 1:3-4 "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Jude 1:3-4 "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
John 3:14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
Acts 10:42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
New American Standard Bible
Romans 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
What do I not see? "he, whom God has chosen", or "he whom I decide".
It's always "whosoever", "whoever", "anyone", "everyone".
If God only allowed some, & not all, He would be the wrong god.
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
1 John 5:1
New American Standard Bible
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
Romans 10
6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
Acts 10:42“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
New American Standard Bible
Romans 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
What do I not see? "he, whom God has chosen", or "he whom I decide".
It's always "whosoever", "whoever", "anyone", "everyone".
If God only allowed some, & not all, He would be the wrong god.
Revelation 21
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 22:17
New American Standard Bible
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
D
Sometimes you answer as if I was yelling at you. I suspect sometimes I answer you and you think I'm doing the same. (And I remember one time that was true, so not like you'd be wrong every time.) But, I'm going to assume now you got all passionate about this, rather than you're yelling at me.
Let me answer according to why I picked a 5:30 start for that surgery and why I ended up praying "too late." Then maybe you can see where I'm coming from, (because truthfully, I do think it's silly to pray for a dead person.)
30 days after hubby had his heart attack he was finally at the place where they could check what damage was done during the heart attack. (Too unstable until then.) And they found out he blew out a valve so hard, he even blew out the muscles that held that valve too his heart. The heart only has three valves, so blowing one out has to be scary. And they told me they would replace it "first thing in the morning."
I've had surgery on occasion. I've known enough other people to have surgery in the morning that I assumed they meant somewhere between 7:30-10 AM. That particular surgery made me nervous for obvious reasons. I could work myself into a good panic attack or deal with it the best I could. The second choice seemed the obvious way to go, so, I did what most people do the day before Christmas Eve -- went shopping for Christmas dinner. Of course I was praying. I don't recall when I wasn't praying that whole month, but some prayers are bigger than others -- more urgent. Shopping intentionally stopped me from being overwhelmed in my thoughts and prayers. But I was praying when I thought he was having surgery. And I came home and urgently prayed. 9 AM!
And I didn't really ask how long the surgery would be, so I kept praying until 10. Of course I prayed for the doctor's skills, and for the outcome I wanted. I also prayed for God's will in that. Hubby is the only other person I know, for certain, is going home when he dies. He will spend his eternity with God, so really didn't have to pray for his salvation.
But, he was in ICU before surgery and would be going back to ICU afterward. And in ICU the nurses are so busy (and they really are. As far as I could tell, their version of lunch was shove-food-down-as-quickly-as-possible), that they only have two patients each. And John's nurse that day was super busy with her other patient when I called, (or so I was told), so didn't get back to me for an hour. So I prayed some more.
She got back to me at 11:30 and told me he went down for the operation at 5:30 and was back before I had parked to car to go shopping. (He was why she was super busy.) Did God ignore me, because I didn't pray at the right time? I've no doubt I'm living at this particular time, and can't go back. I think that's a good thing, because I don't want to go back. I wasn't the only one praying for John, but those prayers joined as a symphony of prayer to God at the "right time." God didn't give me the "your wrong" buzzer for praying at the wrong time because he's not stuck in time.
Is that biblical? It's not not-biblical. You keep telling me your logic is straight from the Bible. It really isn't. The Bible doesn't say a thing about not praying after the fact. It doesn't say a thing about praying after the fact either. Nothing in there about either choice, anymore than it goes into great details about proper technique on vineyard husbandry.
To pray that Judas wouldn't betray Jesus is dumb? Very dumb. Obviously it was God's will that Judas do just that, so that's asking God to stop being God. DUMB! To pray that God gave Judas mercy at the very end -- that moment between jumping to kill himself and the moment he splattered across the ground? Questionable, but that's not the same as saying it's unbiblical. The Bible doesn't tell us the answer to that one.
Given my Dad is in Stage 3 dementia (no more able to logic out anything, or even to talk anymore), and he wasn't saved before this point, it has become personal to me to think God can still save him. And I will keep praying for that until Dad dies. THAT is how I'm stuck in time, and grateful that God is not. I am, very much, still praying for God's will in this one, but got to say, it's not like God doesn't know my will.
I am a wife in a good Christian marriage. I really get hubby is the final say for the big decisions in life. I also get what it is to be the bride of him, like Jesus' bride is the church. Jesus will do what is best, but he hears what my will is and takes that into account as he works his will in all situations. That's not to say I get what I want every time, but he sure knows how to work it out to his plan in ways I can't conceive other that it's for my best and his glory. My husband tries to do what is best for me. God always does what is best for all his people to his glory. THAT is biblical.
Let me answer according to why I picked a 5:30 start for that surgery and why I ended up praying "too late." Then maybe you can see where I'm coming from, (because truthfully, I do think it's silly to pray for a dead person.)
30 days after hubby had his heart attack he was finally at the place where they could check what damage was done during the heart attack. (Too unstable until then.) And they found out he blew out a valve so hard, he even blew out the muscles that held that valve too his heart. The heart only has three valves, so blowing one out has to be scary. And they told me they would replace it "first thing in the morning."
I've had surgery on occasion. I've known enough other people to have surgery in the morning that I assumed they meant somewhere between 7:30-10 AM. That particular surgery made me nervous for obvious reasons. I could work myself into a good panic attack or deal with it the best I could. The second choice seemed the obvious way to go, so, I did what most people do the day before Christmas Eve -- went shopping for Christmas dinner. Of course I was praying. I don't recall when I wasn't praying that whole month, but some prayers are bigger than others -- more urgent. Shopping intentionally stopped me from being overwhelmed in my thoughts and prayers. But I was praying when I thought he was having surgery. And I came home and urgently prayed. 9 AM!
And I didn't really ask how long the surgery would be, so I kept praying until 10. Of course I prayed for the doctor's skills, and for the outcome I wanted. I also prayed for God's will in that. Hubby is the only other person I know, for certain, is going home when he dies. He will spend his eternity with God, so really didn't have to pray for his salvation.
But, he was in ICU before surgery and would be going back to ICU afterward. And in ICU the nurses are so busy (and they really are. As far as I could tell, their version of lunch was shove-food-down-as-quickly-as-possible), that they only have two patients each. And John's nurse that day was super busy with her other patient when I called, (or so I was told), so didn't get back to me for an hour. So I prayed some more.
She got back to me at 11:30 and told me he went down for the operation at 5:30 and was back before I had parked to car to go shopping. (He was why she was super busy.) Did God ignore me, because I didn't pray at the right time? I've no doubt I'm living at this particular time, and can't go back. I think that's a good thing, because I don't want to go back. I wasn't the only one praying for John, but those prayers joined as a symphony of prayer to God at the "right time." God didn't give me the "your wrong" buzzer for praying at the wrong time because he's not stuck in time.
Is that biblical? It's not not-biblical. You keep telling me your logic is straight from the Bible. It really isn't. The Bible doesn't say a thing about not praying after the fact. It doesn't say a thing about praying after the fact either. Nothing in there about either choice, anymore than it goes into great details about proper technique on vineyard husbandry.
To pray that Judas wouldn't betray Jesus is dumb? Very dumb. Obviously it was God's will that Judas do just that, so that's asking God to stop being God. DUMB! To pray that God gave Judas mercy at the very end -- that moment between jumping to kill himself and the moment he splattered across the ground? Questionable, but that's not the same as saying it's unbiblical. The Bible doesn't tell us the answer to that one.
Given my Dad is in Stage 3 dementia (no more able to logic out anything, or even to talk anymore), and he wasn't saved before this point, it has become personal to me to think God can still save him. And I will keep praying for that until Dad dies. THAT is how I'm stuck in time, and grateful that God is not. I am, very much, still praying for God's will in this one, but got to say, it's not like God doesn't know my will.
I am a wife in a good Christian marriage. I really get hubby is the final say for the big decisions in life. I also get what it is to be the bride of him, like Jesus' bride is the church. Jesus will do what is best, but he hears what my will is and takes that into account as he works his will in all situations. That's not to say I get what I want every time, but he sure knows how to work it out to his plan in ways I can't conceive other that it's for my best and his glory. My husband tries to do what is best for me. God always does what is best for all his people to his glory. THAT is biblical.
P
Well, welcome to CF. Please continue to study, no one has free will who is lost; John 8:35, and it is actually God who chooses; 2:13-15; not mans; John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1-5 &c. 
If you are chosen without "choice" he would be forcing you into his table.
No,we choose,and YET are chosen.
All are chosen,few choose.
D
To think that is the nonsense.
Does God predestine? If you say no, then you miss the Bible entirely.
If you say yes, then there is the obvious question -- is God so inept or feeble that he can only "try" to save as many as he can and the rest are just outside of his range or mind? Or does he only predestine some but couldn't quite accomplish what he wanted with the others?
Who is God to you -- some willy-nilly inept dude who tries but doesn't quite make it? Not much of a god.
Is he THE God who always gets what he wills?
Well, if he is that God, then apparently he doesn't will some to him, so, yeah, it is "double-predestination." (Which is a false phrase to use, since he predestines everyone and everything into his sovereign will, even if that will makes for some idiot called "the Pharaoh" or some idiot named "Pontius Pilate.") ALL things work to the good of those who are called to him has the obvious opposite consequences for all things not called to him.
God is completely sovereign whether you will him to be or not.
Does God predestine? If you say no, then you miss the Bible entirely.
If you say yes, then there is the obvious question -- is God so inept or feeble that he can only "try" to save as many as he can and the rest are just outside of his range or mind? Or does he only predestine some but couldn't quite accomplish what he wanted with the others?
Who is God to you -- some willy-nilly inept dude who tries but doesn't quite make it? Not much of a god.
Is he THE God who always gets what he wills?
Well, if he is that God, then apparently he doesn't will some to him, so, yeah, it is "double-predestination." (Which is a false phrase to use, since he predestines everyone and everything into his sovereign will, even if that will makes for some idiot called "the Pharaoh" or some idiot named "Pontius Pilate.") ALL things work to the good of those who are called to him has the obvious opposite consequences for all things not called to him.
God is completely sovereign whether you will him to be or not.
Sister, it always comes down to these things: 1) That if (since really) God chooses Sovereignly (and thank His Name that He does!) that it makes God 'unfair'; 2) We then see the persons replying against God; Romans 9:20; 3) Then comes the pitting of Scripture against Scripture, eisegetical interpretations, and reading of tradition into the Word; 4) They will not allow Scripture to correct them, Scripture that refutes their position readily.
For the record I used to hold to those same errors, then God did His work; 1 Corinthians 2:10ff.
By the way, I am amazed at the hugeness of God after coming to the Doctrines of Grace!
For the record I used to hold to those same errors, then God did His work; 1 Corinthians 2:10ff.
By the way, I am amazed at the hugeness of God after coming to the Doctrines of Grace!
D
Open theism is to Christianity what liberalism is to conservatism. If you are an open theist, you aren't a Christian. The God of the bible truly is omniscient in that he holds all knowledge in his head at once, therefore most certainly knows what you will choose today, and in the future. AND he is NOT conferring with you for a joint decision.
However, now I understand why you've always hit me as off from being a Christian.
However, now I understand why you've always hit me as off from being a Christian.
God wills that everyone should be saved. Will everyone be saved? I believe the scriptures are very clear that not all people choose to believe in Christ's work for them.
God would not be God if He violated His love and He doesn't predestine people to go to hell and choose hell for them. That is a mis-understanding and a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. "Why" did our loving Father send Jesus His Son to redeem man-kind in the first place. Get that answer right and you will see that God does not predestine certain people apart from their will to go to hell.
But people are free to believe whatever they want on some subjects ( Not the deity and work of Christ for salvation ). People could believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want. It does say something about "birds" in the book...
God would not be God if He violated His love and He doesn't predestine people to go to hell and choose hell for them. That is a mis-understanding and a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. "Why" did our loving Father send Jesus His Son to redeem man-kind in the first place. Get that answer right and you will see that God does not predestine certain people apart from their will to go to hell.
But people are free to believe whatever they want on some subjects ( Not the deity and work of Christ for salvation ). People could believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want. It does say something about "birds" in the book...
God is all-knowing, even if something has not existed yet. Depends on your perception of time when it comes to that one. Maybe future present and past are one in a sense.
Sometimes you know things without your own reasoning. I believe that is God talking to you, and all you need is faith to move mountains, which you could not have foreseen from any reasoning and calculation of your mind.
Sometimes you know things without your own reasoning. I believe that is God talking to you, and all you need is faith to move mountains, which you could not have foreseen from any reasoning and calculation of your mind.
Some people are robots who see God as some kind of robot too.
This is what happens when love is crushed out of people, and they don't cope well.
They replace the basic idea that God is Love, so that they can make God's laws anything but to do with the painful subject of love. However love is the law above all the others.
I guess some people find it easier to love an inanimate object or a non-sentient being, because it is a reflection of what they have become.
This is what happens when love is crushed out of people, and they don't cope well.
They replace the basic idea that God is Love, so that they can make God's laws anything but to do with the painful subject of love. However love is the law above all the others.
I guess some people find it easier to love an inanimate object or a non-sentient being, because it is a reflection of what they have become.
God wills that everyone should be saved. Will everyone be saved? I believe the scriptures are very clear that not all people choose to believe in Christ's work for them.
God would not be God if He violated His love and He doesn't predestine people to go to hell and choose hell for them. That is a mis-understanding and a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. "Why" did our loving Father send Jesus His Son to redeem man-kind in the first place. Get that answer right and you will see that God does not predestine certain people apart from their will to go to hell.
But people are free to believe whatever they want on some subjects ( Not the deity and work of Christ for salvation ). People could believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want. It does say something about "birds" in the book...
God would not be God if He violated His love and He doesn't predestine people to go to hell and choose hell for them. That is a mis-understanding and a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. "Why" did our loving Father send Jesus His Son to redeem man-kind in the first place. Get that answer right and you will see that God does not predestine certain people apart from their will to go to hell.
But people are free to believe whatever they want on some subjects ( Not the deity and work of Christ for salvation ). People could believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want. It does say something about "birds" in the book...