Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[valiant]

God wills that everyone should be saved.

This is untrue of itself. We must add a caveat. e.g. if they believe in Jesus Christ

Will everyone be saved? I believe the scriptures are very clear that not all people choose to believe in Christ's work for them.

see above.

God would not be God if He violated His love and He doesn't predestine people to go to hell and choose hell for them. That is a mis-understanding and a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place.

God does not predestine people to go to Hell. Again we have to add a caveat. 'God predestines men and women to go to Hell if they refuse to believe the Gospel.' All men, however, by what they are, do choose to go to Hell. They will not of themselves choose the Gospel.

"Why" did our loving Father send Jesus His Son to redeem man-kind in the first place.

To save them from themselves. He redeemed those whom He had chosen.

Get that answer right and you will see that God does not predestine certain people apart from their will to go to hell.

All men go to Hell of their own will apart from God's intervention.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God did not predestine people to hell apart from giving them the same opportunity he gave every man woman a child who ever lived on the earth, the possibility to receive the work of God as payment for their sins.

to say other wise is to make God out to be the very being Satan said he is.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Things get a bit depressing if you combine two popoular BDF claims

- "We are predestined"
(Whether you admit it or not, if some are predestined for heaven, the others are automatically destined to hell)

- "Those who are save never sins"

so then... if a Christian sins, he knows he is predestined to hell... and he can just give up on God ... right?
No? Then how do you stand for both views?

 

[valiant]

Things get a bit depressing if you combine two popoular BDF claims

- "We are predestined"
(Whether you admit it or not, if some are predestined for heaven, the others are automatically destined to hell)

If you mean positively predestined by God your statement is false. Not all are predestined. Only those whom He chooses to save.

If you mean predestined by our behaviour, then of course we are all predestined apart from God's intervention.

- "Those who are save never sins"

???

so then... if a Christian sins, he knows he is predestined to hell... and he can just give up on God ... right?
No? Then how do you stand for both views?

No true Christian is bound for Hell. He is SAVED.

 

[1ofthem]

Things get a bit depressing if you combine two popoular BDF claims

- "We are predestined"
(Whether you admit it or not, if some are predestined for heaven, the others are automatically destined to hell)

- "Those who are save never sins"

so then... if a Christian sins, he knows he is predestined to hell... and he can just give up on God ... right?
No? Then how do you stand for both views?

The enemy uses every trick in the book to convince people not to be saved.

When I was under conviction and wanting to be saved...the devil knew that I believed in God and that trying to tell me he wasn't real wasn't going to work... so he came at me with you can't be saved you are not one of the chosen ones you are predestined for hell. Which was a lie and a trick? I don't think some people realize how dangerous of a doctrine this predestination, or some are chosen and some are not, really is.

 

[valiant]

The enemy uses every trick in the book to convince people not to be saved.

When I was under conviction and wanting to be saved...the devil knew that I believed in God and that trying to tell me he wasn't real wasn't going to work... so he came at me with you can't be saved you are not one of the chosen ones you are predestined for hell. Which was a lie and a trick? I don't think some people realize how dangerous of a doctrine this predestination, or some are chosen and some are not, really is.

it is not the doctrine of election and predestination that is dangerous. It is the misunderstanding of it.

If you are chosen to be saved, then you will be saved.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

If you mean positively predestined by God your statement is false. Not all are predestined. Only those whom He chooses to save.

If you mean predestined by our behaviour, then of course we are all predestined apart from God's intervention.



???



No true Christian is bound for Hell. He is SAVED.

There are only two options! : Saved - Not saved

If God does not elect someone to be saved, by default they are not saved right? So then He DOES predestine them to hell

and when people ALSO claim that "Someone who is saved never sins", that means sin is proof someone is NOT saved,
and if they believe in predestination, that must means they are destined NOT to be saved, thus to hell. Simple

Which is why I think it is nonsense

 

[1ofthem]

it is not the doctrine of election and predestination that is dangerous. It is the misunderstanding of it.

If you are chosen to be saved, then you will be saved.

I'm sorry, but I just can't swallow the theory of predestination. We all have the chance to be saved, but we have to believe and have faith in order to be saved. I think the doctrine of predestination could potentially give the enemy room to try and cast a doubt and cause some not to believe in the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Utah]

But don't you think He would have to know everything in order to say what the end will be from the beginning...?
I can't quite understand the thought that God is not all-knowing. I honestly didn't know some people thought this.

I'm not saying either way whether or not God is all knowing. When God walked the Earth 2,000 years ago, He removed Himself from the complete fullness of His divinity. God may have done the same thing regarding every single solitary minute aspect of the entire world. Seriously, did God know or want to know that I'd make a spelling mistake that needed correcting in this post? In my small, finite mind it would seem boring for God to know everything that will happen.

 

[Utah]

There's no conundrum there, it only exists in the above misapplication but not in reality.

There is a context to the "with God all things are possible" and it's doesn't fit where you're trying to place it. You're taking it from its context and trying to prove some point that goes against the revealed God of Scripture who knows everything, from beginning to ending. Note Isaiah 46.

The thing that isn't true bro is your logical fallacy by misusing the text to support the error of open theism.

I would suggest a book for you to read; 'The Existence and Attributes of God' by Stephen Charnock.

Open Theism is a heresy that is newcomer on the scene. Don't get caught up in that God debasing error.

Thanks brother. I'll check it out.

 

[Utah]

He's not using "if" as a continual clause, he's using it as a conjunction, but I'm sure you knew that. I don't understand why you would want to play word game with a brother. We are called to love one another, this is how we know if (conditional clause) some one is are born of God.

1 John3:9-10 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

You don't know me, bro. I don't play games. I'm a fierce warrior for the Gospel and yet be that as it may I have much to learn. I did not understand the conjunction aspect of his sentence. I do however understand that he's a smug aristocrat who often looks down at others. I'm here to share and learn, and I'm not beyond making mistakes. I appreciate what you've shared. Thanks for the help.

 

[notuptome]

I'm not saying either way whether or not God is all knowing. When God walked the Earth 2,000 years ago, He removed Himself from the complete fullness of His divinity. God may have done the same thing regarding every single solitary minute aspect of the entire world. Seriously, did God know or want to know that I'd make a spelling mistake that needed correcting in this post? In my small, finite mind it would seem boring for God to know everything that will happen.

It's one of the divine attributes of God. God inhabits eternity. All of eternity all the time. The finite mind cannot really grasp all that eternity comprehends.

God determined all these things ever before He created the world an man to dwell therein.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Utah]

Open theism is to Christianity what liberalism is to conservatism. If you are an open theist, you aren't a Christian. The God of the bible truly is omniscient in that he holds all knowledge in his head at once, therefore most certainly knows what you will choose today, and in the future. AND he is NOT conferring with you for a joint decision.

However, now I understand why you've always hit me as off from being a Christian.

Oh look! It speaks. Thanks for the love, sunshine. I have more Christian faith in my pinky toenail than you do in the hateful abyss of yours you call a soul. But I digress. Carry on.

We are works in progress. Remember that.

 

[Utah]

It's one of the divine attributes of God. God inhabits eternity. All of eternity all the time. The finite mind cannot really grasp all that eternity comprehends.

God determined all these things ever before He created the world an man to dwell therein.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The terms heretic and non-Christian have been used towards me in this thread, and I don't pay them any mind. I know where I stand with Jesus, and its all good. But it is wonderful to have a brother in Christ sharing grace ^^^^ and understanding finite minds cannot grasp the totality of God. Thanks bro.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are only two options! : Saved - Not saved

If God does not elect someone to be saved, by default they are not saved right? So then He DOES predestine them to hell

and when people ALSO claim that "Someone who is saved never sins", that means sin is proof someone is NOT saved,
and if they believe in predestination, that must means they are destined NOT to be saved, thus to hell. Simple

Which is why I think it is nonsense

As I see it, Those who God has determined by his perfect wisdom and knowledge, will trust him to save the, He has chosen keep his promise and save them..
Jhn 6: [SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. [SUP]39 [/SUP]This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God predestined to fulfill his will.

what was his will?

1. Whoever sees and believes will have eternal life and be risen on the last day.
2. All that was given to Christ will never be lost.

predestination is based on those two fact.

1. God knows who point number 1 is and knew it before out time began (he is outside time)
2. he will keep his promise..

 

[Depleted]

Its not clear, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You think God is a puppet master? Come on, man. God is greater than that, and the gift of life is greater than that. Earlier you mocked John 3:16. You think you were predestined by God to mock His Word? God is not the author of confusion.

Well, honestly? Now that you've pretty much said you are God's puppet master, what's the difference. (Open theism is very much about telling God what to do and he's stuck dealing with those decisions after it happens.) So, that makes you the author of confusion.

 

[Depleted]

All those predestination people are all aglow about their doctrine until you ask them to prove which one they are.

Actually, we have proven it. Your problem is you use one verse (and from multiple translations as if that makes it the entire story) and ignore the proof.

Have you yet to consider something might be wrong if the only one who liked your last post was Grace777, the guy you stalk?

If proof doesn't do it, will your ego? Given your primary purpose on CC is to stalk Grace777, doesn't your ego hit you that you might be off?

(Yeah. Granted. I am the kind of person that if proof doesn't work, I'll will use someone's ego. Natural born salesperson. What can I say? lol)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh look! It speaks. Thanks for the love, sunshine. I have more Christian faith in my pinky toenail than you do in the hateful abyss of yours you call a soul. But I digress. Carry on.

We are works in progress. Remember that.

What the heck Utah...???
Why so hateful?

And somebody actually hit "like" for that hateful post??

 

[Depleted]

I'll be reading along here in my boat and make a comment or two perhaps. Just reading both sides so far. But I grew up Pentecostal so I dont lean to the Calvinist side of the boat.But I still fellowship and fish with those that do.

You and I have another kind of boat in common. The "this isn't crucial to salvation" boat. With that in mind, I'd love to ask you some questions just to try and understand. I believed as you do, but I forgot how the logic went. Just remind me, if I start getting all passionate about my belief again that I'm not in this to try and talk you into my side. I'm trying to understand how you take this subject. (And I might have to be reminded, because I am passionate about this.)

How does it work for you that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" and yet, some (Most, truthfully), really will perish anyway and not have everlasting life? How do you rectify those two facts? God loves the world, but not enough to save it all? We have to believe or God is helpless to do what he really, really wanted to do?

This is what got me. This is where I got stuck. And it felt like circling around to hit the same wall over and over again.

(Other part of the Bible that took some time to wrap my head around is that the merciful, long-suffering, loving God is the same God that told the Israelites to commit genocide on all the nations living in the Promise Land. So, honestly, John 3:16 wasn't my only say-what moment in studying who God really is vs. who I'd rather him be.)

And, again, not trying to sell you on Calvinism. I'm asking you how you deal with that verse without ending up going around in circles hitting your head on the wall each time. And, this is fact finding, because I'm no more going to talk you into agreeing with me than you can talk me into agreeing with you. That's why I ask you in particular. You know what you know, and don't feel a need to talk anyone else into believing the same thing.

(Almost everyone else is out for blood. They're putting each other down because they won't agree here.)

 

[Depleted]

You have said it, but you do not believe. Of course it is God's will -- His desire, that all will be saved, but God allows us free will. God answers every prayer; sometimes its yes; sometimes its no; depending on His sovereignty, but in the end, we have free will.

I make decisions for my dogs, and many decisions are based on their wants, but I have to take into account what's best for them. If they could, they'd eat chocolate all day every day, but chocolate is deadly to them so they are not allowed to eat it. That's denying them for their own good.

However, when I leave for work my dogs jump up on the kitchen counter and eat loads of chocolate, they will suffer the consequences via sickness and death. Though I am their master, they have free will.

They don't have free will either. They are as much slaves of their nature as we are. There's a reason a dog has a sheepish look on his face when caught. They acknowledge they did something wrong, and yet they couldn't control the urge. Are they truly guilty? Sure, just like we are truly guilty of our sin nature.