Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

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Dec 28, 2016
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So the gate you came up to said "only the chosen,no others need apply"

Why would it need to say any such thing if the "non chosen" never see such a gate?
Gotta love the snark in that. By the way, what "gate"? Did you enter a literal gate that is so literal it had a sign hanging on the other side? Or, was it a figurative gate with a figurative sign? :D

What I'm saying is Scripture tells us now what the alleged 'other side of the gate' says - 2 Thessalonians 2:13ff. Cute story though, but I'll stick with Scripture.

And, by the way, only the elect will enter it and none other.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Belief and transformation is merit...They earnt there pardon
by repenting and remorse...I am always humble
Belief and transformation is merit? You mean like "merited"? God grants repentance, and pardon is never "earnt". But you have your gospel, then there is the Gospel in Scripture.

And, you're humble, correct? Is it your perpetual humility that always talks down on others, and always exalts yourself? Bro, you're trippin' hard. Real hard.
 

Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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election is like when a man approaches the narrow gate. He sees that 'whosoever will may come'. But when he looks back having entered through it he sees, 'chosen before the foundation of the world'.
You must go to a Calvary Chapel, that was Chuck's favorite line because he didn't think much of election in a Biblical since. He rode along the lines of Barth, the Messiah is the Chosen one and when we come to Christ we are now chosen in Him, before the foundations of the world. But he said lots of things that Shank had in his book "Life in the Son". Either way it's still man centered with Jesus along for the ride.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You must go to a Calvary Chapel, that was Chuck's favorite line because he didn't think much of election in a Biblical since. He rode along the lines of Barth, the Messiah is the Chosen one and when we come to Christ we are now chosen in Him, before the foundations of the world. But he said lots of things that Shank had in his book "Life in the Son". Either way it's still man centered with Jesus along for the ride.
Another weird thing about Chuck was he held some ridicule and disdain for theology/doctrine. But anytime a person talks of Christ or anything biblical, they're telling you their doctrine. I had a guy deliver a piece of furniture to our home and he told me "All we need is Jesus, we don't need theology." LOL!!! I asked him to tell me about Jesus and you can probably guess where I went in the conversation when he did...
 
Apr 15, 2017
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It does appear as if people that believe we cannot abstain from sin,come across to the people that believe we can abstain from sin,and that we have to have works to have faith active,that they are doing something wrong,and in delusion.

For even if works do not have anything to do with salvation,it does not hurt,but helps.

Hey you,stop feeding that poor man over there,don't you know you are deceived,for your works mean nothing.

Hey,where are you going homeboy.Oh,you are going to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction.Stop doing that,don't you know you are in delusion.

Hey,stop preaching to be Christlike,and represent goodness.You are deceived,and do not even know it.

Hey people,do not listen to these people when they preach act like Christ,represent goodness,for they are deceived,and do not heed when they feed the poor and needy,and help out people,for they are in delusion.

Take no heed to what they say,or do,for it is an optical delusion.

That is funny,as if they are doing something wrong,and are deceived,but they act more Christlike than those that believe we cannot abstain from sin,and Jesus said you will know them by their fruits,so the ones that act more Christlike,and stress to act more Christlike,which is basically to represent goodness,I would say have to be more in the truth,for you will know them by their fruits.

The truth is when we live for God we have to do what God wants us to do,plain and simple,and do not grieve the Spirit,and do not quench the Spirit,but do what God wants you to do.

Help the poor and needy,and abstain from fleshy lusts.

And James said a man is justified by works,and not faith alone,which plainly he is saying do what God wants you to do,which we know we have to do that anyway,for if we do not do what the Spirit wants us to do,then we are rebellious,and that is why James points out if you do not help the poor,then you are not doing what God wants you to do,so then faith is not active in your life,for if you belong to the kingdom of God,that is what you are supposed to represent,and behold,the kingdom of God is within you.

Paul,faith alone,not saved by works,confessing Christ.James,a man is justified by works,and not faith alone,after they receive the Spirit,and we know we have to do what God wants us to do,and these works are not of us,and not of the flesh,but doing what God wants us to do,for if we do not we are rebellious,and then how do we have faith.

When we see the list of the operation of the Spirit,there is no fleshy operation in there,so if you are led of the Spirit no fleshy operation will be there,so you can abstain from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,but that is only if a person is sincere,and does not want sin in their life,then it would be possible by the Spirit.

Hey,do not listen to these people when they preach act like Christ,and represent goodness,and abstain from sin,and do not take heed to them when they goest about feeding the poor,and providing them with clothes,and visiting the fatherless and the widows in their affliction,and going about doing good works here and there,to and fro,for they are in delusion,and what you are hearing and viewing is an optical delusion.

That is funny,as if they are doing something wrong.

I would say the people that are more Christlike,and stress to be more Christlike,which is to represent goodness,would be the ones more in the truth,for you will know them by their fruits,and the more they act like Christ,the more truth they would be in.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

We can look at it from the viewpoint of love,and love is the fulfilling of the law,which love does not think an evil thought.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

We can look at it from the viewpoint of confessing Christ,they have to depart from iniquity.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

We can look at it from representing God's goodness,if you do not continue in it,and stray,then you will be cut off of you do not correct yourself.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We can look at it from the viewpoint of allowing the Spirit to lead us,which if we do not help the poor and needy,then faith is not active in our life,which we can help more than by finances,and if we have the means financially,and we do not do it,the love of God does not dwell in us.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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I will see the possibility of predestination having some real force behind it when a professing Christian says that he believes that the chosen were individually picked by God before the foundation of the world and that he was NOT picked. It is funny how the folks who believe that God picks some and not others, always believe that they are the ones picked, not the others not picked. To those who think they are the special folks picked before the world was created, what if you are deceived and you are not really picked, you just think that you are?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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The sentence is saying that 'it is by the undeserved favour of God that we are saved, through the means of faith, and that (salvation) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works. lest any man should boast.
Well, we have established that people view "that" as referring to different parts of the sentence.
There is only one part of the sentence that I personally COULD maybe in any way attribute to myself and it is the faith part. I already know I had nothing to do with Gods' kindness/mercy - and we protestants absolutely know salvation is by faith alone, it's practically our mantra. So the only thing I might possibly be able to think WAS through me is the faith part of the sentence, so I naturally think that the apostle was not seriously thinking it was the grace part that someone might mistakenly think was from themselves. It sounds silly of me to say "God saved me because of His kindness and that kindness was not of myself." Of course Gods' kindness is not of myself.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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God has not given His grace as a gift. Grace is feminine. It refers to the grace of God, His personal attribute, in other words His unmerited favour.. What is later described as the gift of God follows the NEUTER 'that'. It is NOT grace that is the gift, but salvation.

when Paul says, 'the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit' he is referring to their attributes. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is His unmerited favour towards us. It is personal to Him. In the same way the love of God refers to His love towards us. Again it is personal to Him. It is introducing us to their grace and love, not referring to some gift. That is to demean it.
Thank you for that! Interesting. :)
 
Apr 15, 2017
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Many are called but few are chosen,which God does the calling and choosing on earth,and God said He wants all people to repent,and come to the truth,and be saved,and the Spirit,and bride say,Come,and whoever wants that salvation can have it.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,so the saints have salvation from the foundation of the world,although it is a future event to all who choose that salvation,like the Lamb was slain,and the prophets blood shed,from the foundation of the world.

But God gets the glory,for when we are called without God working in our life we would not get to the truth,but we have to make the final step to choose that truth.

No person calls Jesus,Lord,except by the Holy Spirit,so whether a person is OSAS,or not,if they claim Jesus as Lord and Savior,and God manifest in the flesh,they have been called.

But have they been chosen,which Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

God could not choose who will be saved,and not saved,without their input,for then He would be evil for condemning people that did nothing wrong,for they cannot help but be lost with no say so,and why would they be judged when they were not chosen that is out of their control,and His kingdom would not be true love.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I will see the possibility of predestination having some real force behind it when a professing Christian says that he believes that the chosen were individually picked by God before the foundation of the world and that he was NOT picked. It is funny how the folks who believe that God picks some and not others, always believe that they are the ones picked, not the others not picked. To those who think they are the special folks picked before the world was created, what if you are deceived and you are not really picked, you just think that you are?
One doesn't receive the Spirit without being chosen...how would it be that you receive your Baptism and not have assurance? It's the single most astounding thing I have ever experienced. And once again, no one has said they were chosen by God because they are special. You said it. No one else said they were special. If anything, it is perplexing why some who we have always known are just naturally kinder people than ourselves have not been given repentance and faith yet.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I believe the same salvation was given me of god, I did not merit it
Then how is it that another man doesn't merit it? If you can't do anything to get salvation or merit it or earn it, how is it that the other man can do something to not merit it? You are saying you did something to merit it and he did something to not merit it. You did something that brought you that salvation that you say you can do nothing to earn. You say you made a choice and that is how God saved you. You say He saved you by His kindness through your choice.

I went over four decades of my life not believing. I didn't even give it another thought. I would no more have believed in God than I would have believed in fairies. After all, I'd never met either one of them, so how could I have? And then suddenly one day I could see. I didn't choose to see, I just SAW. I didn't choose to believe, I just suddenly did. I knew. I saw. I didn't just wake up one day and say, you know what, I'm going to choose to believe this. That literally was not how it happened with me. I'm actually guessing that wasn't how it happened with you either, but I could be wrong.
 
Dec 2, 2016
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Hi Stun: I recognize how strange and unexplained it is when one person will seek God while another will not. Some very good people(by human standards) never seen to have an interest in God, while other people who were real rascals seek after God. I am certain that God set up a situation where I had a really good opportunity to accept Jesus as Savior, however I am convinced that I could have refused to accept Christ as Savior. God does not force us to accept His Son.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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The sentence is saying that 'it is by the undeserved favour of God that we are saved, through the means of faith, and that (salvation) is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works. lest any man should boast.
Except that this is not how sentence construction works (and especially not written sentence construction.)
If that were the intent, the sentence would read: You have been saved (and that not of yourself) by the kindness of God, through faith. By placing it at the end as he did, he would either be referring back to the last thing said, OR he would be referring to the whole prior sentence. I could understand the argument that he did indeed mean the whole prior sentence, but I can't understand it being JUST the first part of it. No one in all of history has constructed a sentence in that manner and that is because we want someone to understand us, not to confuse them.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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What stuns me is how the same people oppose the very realities I have experienced
at such a fundamental level, when these very realities are the ones written in scripture.

And these very people wish literally to disown faith from those who just testify to what
has happened. It convinces me that some are chosen and some are not. And at every
point there will always be opposition to help us refine and more fully understand the
glory that is our Saviour and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus said in effect false teachers are not just teachers who are slightly confused,
but to their root are different. They can change, but they will always repeat the same
failures time and again and should not be confused with works of the Holy Spirit.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I do not see it this way.. My faith is in God, In his work, In his promise,. It is not that I did anything good to save myself.. In fact it is that I can NOT do anything in myself that I had to trust Jesus..

I deserve the condemnation the unbeliever will recieve, What separates me from them is I have been born again, not that I did anything to save myself.

If faith in God is good and leads to saving, and that faith was from yourself, then you did something good to bring it about.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If faith in God is good and leads to saving, and that faith was from yourself, then you did something good to bring it about.
ok, If that's what you think..

I do not see it this way.. And I think I have shown why by my examples.. but if that is what you want to think. We will have to agree to disagree.

I consider calvanists my brothers and sisters. I do not condemn them, nor would I.. I just think their theology gives God a bad name..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I'm just warming up in the bullpen. Wait till the game actually starts. ;)

Always great to see you, my brother. God bless, always. :cool:

you too bro.. I also meet people where they are.. Sadly it gets throne back at us.. All we can do is look to God.. if we are wrong. pray he leads us.

Although I will confess. sometimes meeting them where they are causes me to sin..
 
Feb 24, 2015
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Believers cannot be

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8

So if someone comes to faith, but behaves like the people in this list, they will
be thrown into the lake of fire.

Funny how anyone could merit such a fate by their behaviour.
Maybe the opposite is true that walking with Christ in righteousness means we
will go to be with Christ and not suffer the second death. Again behaviour and faith
merits reward and fellowship from God.

How can merit and behaviour excluded from the gospel other than be people who
are so scared by legalism they just want to create a wide gate without any
conditions or rewards to any degree.

Praise the Lord He does not agree, Amen
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't see anything about any Ameritech people, where are those Scriptures talking about those people.


who said anything about Ameritech people. I said the amorites. the people of canaan.. WHo God waited 400 years until they reach the point of no return before God chose to send Israel in and said to kill them all.

By what stated about being made alive, means you don't believe these Scripture. Ephesians 2:4-5 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

Brother we are agreeing on believing and faith, where we disagree is to how we are able to believe or
receive or have faith. That's why I said you got two out of three right, because we agree on those.

I got faith because God worked hard in me to cause me to repent.. In fact he spent months trying to convince me.. Where others he may work as hard, yet they never repent, But chose religion instead of the gospel.. and still others. continue in their so called atheism..


Yes, that is the passage, He made us alive, because he took away the penalty of sin.. and restored our relationship. That is called justification.

We are justified (saved) by grace through faith.. and because of all those things, we are made alive or born again. or regenerated..
 
Dec 28, 2016
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If faith in God is good and leads to saving, and that faith was from yourself, then you did something good to bring it about.
In the flawed view of faith (innate ability) it makes salvation a reward not a gift.

So what is faith in this system? They say everyone has it. Scripture however denies this saying "Not all men have faith" 2 Thessalonians 3:2.

That is quite plain.

It doesn't say "Not all men have exercised their faith", or, "Not all men have chosen", nor does it say "Not all men have placed their faith in Christ". Plainly it states; "Not all men have faith". That's the bottom line.

So, where does faith come from? Romans 10:17 shows it to be external, coming from the Word of Christ (same Word that created the worlds) proving it to not be innate. Note also Acts 3:16 as well, it shows as well that faith comes from Christ. And also Ephesians 1:19, faith (believe/believing) comes from God, the same power that raised Christ.

Why people insist it came from them is beyond me. It is absolutely against Scripture to believe this.