Not By Works

[FranC]

Fran that is the unknown delema that is a curse upon the disobedient children, in that deceivers themselves don't know they are deceived...However, Jesus gave the solution to the matter in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:10-15. This is why he spoke to them in parables. He also said in Mark, that if one doesn't know the parable of the sower, how are they to know the other parables...Example they know not the parable of the prodigal son because they never came to grips with the parable of the sower, thus the grounds of the heart were never broken up in repentance in order to receive the engrafted word that is able to save the soul. Therefore the heart remains unplyable and cannot receive anything from the Spirit of truth.. But to those that make ready and brake up the grounds of the heart in repentance, He said; blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. The rebellious flesh cannot hear nor contemplate such spiritual matters, therefore Jesus spoke to them in parables in hopes of stirring up their fogged minds, in that they may earnestly seek with diligence the truth hence forth brake up the fallow grounds of the heart in repentance, and then hunger and thirst for righteousness so that they might be filled...

Very well put.
Good explanation for why Jesus used parables.
He also wanted some effort made to understand Him. Also by speaking in parables people could add their own understanding by experiences had by them instead of being told exactly what they should think.

We follow jesus with our heart, not a bunch of rules, so he wanted people to understand with their heart.

But some had hard hearts. No ears to hear...

When we dont like what is being said...we dont want to hear.

 

[dcontroversal]

Very well put.
Good explanation for why Jesus used parables.
He also wanted some effort made to understand Him. Also by speaking in parables people could add their own understanding by experiences had by them instead of being told exactly what they should think.

We follow jesus with our heart, not a bunch of rules, so he wanted people to understand with their heart.

But some had hard hearts. No ears to hear...

When we dont like what is being said...we dont want to hear.[/QUOTE]

^yep for sure.................Sanctified<==past tense

 

[FranC]

Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

A fine line indeed!
Most of the time its just words.
Great post.

 

[FranC]

I think you worded it wrong.

Jesus did everything BECAUSE WE COULD do nothing.

If we could do anything, Jesus owuld not have to do anything. ie, He died in the cross and suffered the wrath we deserve for nothing.

But BECAUSE Jesus did everything, We can be saved, and do the works God created us to do. (IE, there is no such things as a couch potato christian who never did anything his whole christian life.

Hi EG
Its starting to sound like we want Jesus to do our "works"!

Let's remember that God always expected us to do things for Him...like enter Caanan for instance, and remove the indigenous people. He didnt come down and do this for Joshua.

Lets remember that Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. He came so that we could enter heaven, so that death and the sin nature could be conquered.

Not so He could do our works for us.
When Jesus said It Is Finished...He meant all the prophesies about Him have been fulfilled.

We always have to do our part.

Now, if you're saying we cant do anything to save ourselves...I'd have to ask this...

Were persons in the OT saved?
How?

So then WHY did Jesus have to die?

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi EG
Its starting to sound like we want Jesus to do our "works"!

Let's remember that God always expected us to do things for Him...like enter Caanan for instance, and remove the indigenous people. He didnt come down and do this for Joshua.

Lets remember that Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. He came so that we could enter heaven, so that death and the sin nature could be conquered.

Not so He could do our works for us.
When Jesus said It Is Finished...He meant all the prophesies about Him have been fulfilled.

We always have to do our part.

Now, if you're saying we cant do anything to save ourselves...I'd have to ask this...

Were persons in the OT saved?
How?

So then WHY did Jesus have to die?

Abraham believed God and it was put to his count for righteousness.....MAYBE you have heard of it FRAN....it is CALLED FAITH

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds of the law....

You should try it...John said...IT IS OUR FAITH that overcomes the world.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG
Its starting to sound like we want Jesus to do our "works"!

Let's remember that God always expected us to do things for Him...like enter Caanan for instance, and remove the indigenous people. He didnt come down and do this for Joshua.

Lets remember that Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. He came so that we could enter heaven, so that death and the sin nature could be conquered.

Not so He could do our works for us.
When Jesus said It Is Finished...He meant all the prophesies about Him have been fulfilled.

We always have to do our part.

Now, if you're saying we cant do anything to save ourselves...I'd have to ask this...

Were persons in the OT saved?
How?

So then WHY did Jesus have to die?

Fran, It sounds like you think you can do Gods work for him. As in making payment for your own sin,. Good luck with that.

Remember Abraham believed God and God accounted it to him for righteousness. Abraham was saved,, Because of the cross. Just like you and I are.. (well, if you are saved. ).

 

[FranC]

Fran, It sounds like you think you can do Gods work for him. As in making payment for your own sin,. Good luck with that.

Remember Abraham believed God and God accounted it to him for righteousness. Abraham was saved,, Because of the cross. Just like you and I are.. (well, if you are saved. ).

You and Dcon are very good at a fallacy.
It's called the red herring fallacy.
Look it up on google.

Instead of answering my question, you bring up a totally different topic and then talk about that.
This makes for a very bad convesation.

Also, it's rather very unchristianly of you to wonder if I'm saved or not.
Do I wonder if you are?

I'm off this thread and maybe this forum.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You and Dcon are very good at a fallacy.
It's called the red herring fallacy.
Look it up on google.

Instead of answering my question, you bring up a totally different topic and then talk about that.
This makes for a very bad convesation.

Also, it's rather very unchristianly of you to wonder if I'm saved or not.
Do I wonder if you are?

I'm off this thread and maybe this forum.

The only red herring is your understanding You said you think it sounds like I want Jesus to do our work. I responded by my own thought.

It is called responding in kind.


I also answered your question. By using Abraham as an example. What do you think it meant when God said Abraham was declared righteous? It meant he was saved.
.

 

[preacher4truth]

Were persons in the OT saved?

Of course. Note how Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing this according to John 3:7-10

How?

By Sovereign electing grace, as always.

So then WHY did Jesus have to die?

To pay for the sins of His people; Matthew 1:21; which payment was made before the foundation of the world; Revelation 13:8; but yet happened in time; Luke 23:33.

 

[dcontroversal]

You and Dcon are very good at a fallacy.
It's called the red herring fallacy.
Look it up on google.

Instead of answering my question, you bring up a totally different topic and then talk about that.
This makes for a very bad convesation.

Also, it's rather very unchristianly of you to wonder if I'm saved or not.
Do I wonder if you are?

I'm off this thread and maybe this forum.

You make me think of ANNA a Russian who lives 5 miles from me...her mom is a Russian bride and together with her husband own a little store called Luvbov's on 185 South out of Sullivan Missouri....for one whole summer I witnessed to her, with her asking question after question and I laid out the truth of Jesus, why, how etc. all spring and summer actually....That particular summer we had a few days around 107.....about 5 years ago....so..here I am cruising down 185 coming home one smoking hot summer day and LO and BEHOLD here is ANNA and her boyfriend walking as they had broken down about a mile earlier and had 5 miles to go in 107 degree heat....I sopped and smiled and asked if they needed a ride and she look astonished.....they said yes and got in and I took them to the store and dropped them off. The next day I stopped by the store and ANNA confessed to me she was praying and telling God that if he was real he would send someone to give them a ride....she started crying and I could see the conviction eating her alive.....WHAT ARE THE ODDS.....

You know how she responded...SHE got angry, shut me out and refused to talk about it ever again.........I am sure you get the drift!

MOST respond with anger against the presented truth and take it out on the messenger in anger.....tragic!

 

[preacher4truth]

You make me think of ANNA a Russian who lives 5 miles from me...her mom is a Russian bride and together with her husband own a little store called Luvbov's on 185 South out of Sullivan Missouri....for one whole summer I witnessed to her, with her asking question after question and I laid out the truth of Jesus, why, how etc. all spring and summer actually....That particular summer we had a few days around 107.....about 5 years ago....so..here I am cruising down 185 coming home one smoking hot summer day and LO and BEHOLD here is ANNA and her boyfriend walking as they had broken down about a mile earlier and had 5 miles to go in 107 degree heat....I sopped and smiled and asked if they needed a ride and she look astonished.....they said yes and got in and I took them to the store and dropped them off. The next day I stopped by the store and ANNA confessed to me she was praying and telling God that if he was real he would send someone to give them a ride....she started crying and I could see the conviction eating her alive.....WHAT ARE THE ODDS.....

You know how she responded...SHE got angry, shut me out and refused to talk about it ever again.........I am sure you get the drift!

MOST respond with anger against the presented truth and take it out on the messenger in anger.....tragic!

Fellow Missourian eh?

 

[dcontroversal]

Fellow Missourian eh?

Sure what about you bro...?

About 70 miles SW of St Louis HAHA

 

[preacher4truth]

We're in Springfield but about to float off into Arkansas if this rain doesn't stop.

 

[dcontroversal]

We're in Springfield but about to float off into Arkansas if this rain doesn't stop.

I heard that....we have had about 8 to 10 inches today....I am only connected by SAT Internet and TV....have lost service like 10 times today....and the creek 40 yards off my back deck is roaring.....and my crossing is washed out.....have to get tractor to fix it tomorrow maybe HAH

 

[dcontroversal]

Another day almost over.....have the cake takers and workers for done enough to keep themselves saved today?

DID you have a chance to do a good work and did not do it?
Are you sure you have done enough today?

the answer would be NO, NO and NO

If you believe that he has been raised form the dead thou shalt be saved! <----FAITH

 

[dcontroversal]

Lord, Lord, DID we not do many wonderful works in your name.....The plenteous in number will boast of their works and their claim to know JESUS.....

Just as the "workers for" do on this site.......

a. They claim to know JESUS
b. They push a works based false gospel

Galatians chapters 1 and 3 proves this is a false gospel, double cursed and no power to save....a different door that leads to being cast from the presence of JESUS instead of being allowed to enter....

REST in JESUS and biblical faith....that is what saves....NOT one's works or abilities......

 

[PeterJens]

You and Dcon are very good at a fallacy.
It's called the red herring fallacy.
Look it up on google.

Instead of answering my question, you bring up a totally different topic and then talk about that.
This makes for a very bad convesation.

Also, it's rather very unchristianly of you to wonder if I'm saved or not.
Do I wonder if you are?

I'm off this thread and maybe this forum.

I agree with your sentiments.
dc & EG are wind up merchants. There whole approach is just to get people so
annoyed they either explode or accept their point of view. The fact that there are
two views is an obvious reality. But rather than accepting the different views they
would rather condemn people, and provoke responses.

Their motivation is they believe only evil people oppose their perspectives so will
not accept that it is legitimate to believe if Christ went to the cross He also expects
us to be able to walk in love and do the right things.

 

[PeterJens]

I think you worded it wrong.

Jesus did everything BECAUSE WE COULD do nothing.

If we could do anything, Jesus owuld not have to do anything. ie, He died in the cross and suffered the wrath we deserve for nothing.

But BECAUSE Jesus did everything, We can be saved, and do the works God created us to do. (IE, there is no such things as a couch potato christian who never did anything his whole christian life.

This is not a logical statement of equals.
A child can do things, but not everything, it does not mean there are no roles
for parents or others. Even as adults we work in teams each doing a small
part of the team roles and work.

What is obvious is to avoid answering a simple question an extreme jump is
needed rather than admiting what would be a reasonable position.
Christ came to give us a role, the whole point was that we all do something
to be His friends, to choose and be part of the Kingdom. The Lord serves He
does not dictate. When you come to realise this, you begin to understand He
delights is us serving Him and having real responsibility because this is what
love means.

 

[mailmandan]

Lord, Lord, DID we not do many wonderful works in your name.....The plenteous in number will boast of their works and their claim to know JESUS.....

Just as the "workers for" do on this site.......

a. They claim to know JESUS
b. They push a works based false gospel

Galatians chapters 1 and 3 proves this is a false gospel, double cursed and no power to save....a different door that leads to being cast from the presence of JESUS instead of being allowed to enter....

REST in JESUS and biblical faith....that is what saves....NOT one's works or abilities......

Amen! Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous.

 

[preacher4truth]

The death knell of those damned in Matthew 7:21-23 is in the ending, that is, that they lived in iniquity, they were lawless, and they are rightly and justly named "workers of lawlessness". We see this warned against in 1 John 3:4ff. We see this same practice today in Antinomianism. A person may claim faith all they want, belief all they want, Sola Fide if you will, but true belief is witnessed in the life, not in the words.