are there any universalists here?????

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,766
26,635
113
I have covered Sheol and Hades as words improperly
translated to hell in the NT. Now for Gehenna
:)

GEHENNA

Gehenna appears 12 times, and is always rendered "hell." It has nothing to do with Sheol or Hades and to translate it by the same word as is done in the Common Version is unfaithful and inexcusable.

Gehenna is a proper name, and should be so used. There is no warrant for translating it "hell," just theological bias. It is the name of a place. It appears 13 times in the Old Testament and is always there treated as a proper name of an actual site -- the Valley of Hinnom.

And in the New Testament, although truly it is used with a symbolic as well as a literal meaning, still it is on the literal meaning that the symbolic is based, and this cannot be understood if it is falsely translated.

For Jesus’ allusions to it to be understood, the facts of the name and place must be known. And one fact we shall find throughout -- it was a place of destruction and corruption, and not of preservation in torment.

Utter consuming destruction is always
the fundamental idea behind this word.


The Greek Gehenna is a transliteration of the Hebrew Gai Hinnom, meaning "Valley of Hinnom." This valley of Hinnom was the refuse dump of the city of Jerusalem. It can be seen on any map of Jerusalem, curving around the southwestern corner of the city. The Septuagint translators of the Old Testament into Greek use the word Gehenna where "Valley of Hinnom" appears in our version.

Originally, in this valley, there was a place called Topheth, and the history of the valley, as we are interested in it, begins with this place. The word Topheth is generally understood to mean "place of burning," and that is what it was. It was a place where, in the Canaanitish worship, human victims were burnt on an altar or sacrificed on the altar and the bodies then burned. Of King Ahaz it is recorded (2 Chron. 28:3) --

  • "Moreover he burnt incense in the Valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel."
The same is recorded of King Manasseh (2 Chron. 33:6).

As a result of these practices by the apostate kings of Judah, we find in 2 Kings 23:10 that Josiah, the reformer --


  • "Defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the children of Hinnom (Gai Hinnom -- Gehenna), that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.
This defilement by Josiah was the beginning of its use as the repository of the filth of Jerusalem. Here, right up to New Testament times, fires were kept perpetually burning for the consumption of the refuse of the city. The bodies of criminals were often cast into this place, as a final indignity and degradation.

Topheth is mentioned many times in Jeremiah 19. The prophet is sent there to prophesy against Jerusalem, and Topheth, the place of refuse and burning, is used as a symbol of destruction and defilement and consuming judgment.

Isaiah uses the same symbol in foretelling the destruction of Assyria. He says (Isa. 30:33):


  • "Tophet is ordained of old; for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
The use here is both literal and figurative, for while it was actually in this valley that the host of Sennacherib was destroyed, the prophecy obviously refers to the greater complete destruction of the later day Assyrian power -- the combined forces of Russia and Papal Europe.

In the New Testament the same is true. The literal Gehenna, just outside of Jerusalem, will figure largely as a site of the destructive fiery judgments to which the term is figuratively applied.

Thus the terms Tophet, Hinnom, or Gehenna were used to indicate devouring judgments and the destruction of anything that was cast out as useless and offensive and utterly consumed by corruption and fire.

Christ accordingly used the term of the destiny of the wicked, whom we have seen will be consumed to smoke and ashes by God’s fierce anger.

As in the literal all which was rejected, undesirable, and unclean was cast into Gehenna outside the city, so into the consuming lake of fire outside the spiritual new Jerusalem will be cast all who are found unfit for access into the city.

Not one of the 12 references to Gehenna give any hint of sustained torment, but always, in keeping with other references to Tophet and Hinnom, to burning consumption and destruction. There is not the slightest support for the popular doctrine of hell in any of the uses of Gehenna.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Like I pointed out earlier...

Psalm 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"


It's how you got here to begin with.

Be thankful and appreciative that this 'loophole' exists.

I sure am.
You have yet to explain how that says what you want it to say?

God is Love. God is Mercy. God is Just. It's more than any of us are able to do with our "send em to Hell" attitudes. It's obvious to me that Christians don't like the idea of Reincarnation, NOT because they think it's unbibilical, but because their hatred for Humanity refuses to allow them to see it any other way.
I dislike it because there is not a word about it in Scripture, it IS UNBIBLICAL

God has more Love than all of us combined.

That is why he gives us another chance.
where does scripture teach this?

But... One must never think that One will come back with a wonderful life. I'm living proof of that, and yet others have it worse than me.
I don't think anyone comes back at all. Funny how there are so many more people now than there were 1000 years ago, Does God reincarnate me in five different bodies at the same time?,
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
Man is mortal in the flesh, I am sure Scripture is clear on that. God will provide an immortal body for the Christian at the resurrection from the dead, but the reprobate will be raised with their same bodies to be thrown alive eternally into hellfire.

Think about it like this. How can someone propitiate for our sins? Well, first, they have to have a mortal body and a rational human soul, because angels cannot substitute for humans. They have to suffer the same kind of consequences as the substitute. Was Jesus suffering in body and soul? Yes, because that is our just end. Did his divinity suffer? No, it cannot suffer, nor could it substitute for men being of another nature. So his flesh (body and soul) was punished on that cross to satisfy the wrath of God toward sin and his divinity helped him endure it, which if it were us, it would have taken an eternity to suffer. But his divinity upheld him to drink the dregs of that cup.

Now, was Jesus annihilated on the cross? Nope. Did his soul get destroyed from existence? Nope. That wasn't the punishment. His punishment was a complete and utter forsaken from his Father, which is what will experience if we die in our sin.
sorry I was still editing, the first usage of the word flesh I meant by body.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
When I create my Reincarnation thread, maybe you can contribute some cool ideas.

I don't know if I'll get banned for my beliefs, so if that happens I just want to say I had fun here.

:p
You've escaped Thor's Hammer so far...you probably fit under the category of:




:cool:
 
Nov 1, 2016
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where does scripture teach this?
Job 1:21
"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD"

Ecclesiastes 5:15
"As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand"

I gave you Two Witnesses.
 
Nov 1, 2016
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And playing the part of Elisha, we have this 'B Rated' ex-Hollywood deadbeat actor named John the Baptist.

He's not really the reincarnation of Elisha... he's simply "role playing" because God doesn't really mean what he says when he says...

Matthew 17:12
"But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them"


It's all just an act folks.

Maybe Jesus was merely role playing too?

:rolleyes:
 
Nov 1, 2016
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Luke 7:28
"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"


Do you know why John was the greatest?

Because he volunteered to come back at least twice. Maybe even three times if you count him as one of the Two Witnesses in Revelation.

Born of Women?

Isn't that plural?

How can a man be born of more than one Woman?

 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Remember to do what God tells us.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God within.

Human Anatomy.

Hell is a parable for the Womb.

It's God's version of the Easter Bunny or Santa I suppose because Christians are too squeamish to be told the hard core Truth.

Bunch of snowflakes in here I swear.

Because of this, many turn away from Christianity and go into Esoterism and Gnosticism because the Occultists aren't afraid to talk about these things.

Unfortunately, the Occultists spin the Truth of Hell into Alchemy and Phoenix symbolism...



Do any of you understand what is being shown in that image?

It's literally Old Testament verses put into art.

See the sides of the Pit?

See Lucifer being thrust through with a Sword?

See the Lake of Fire?

It's a picture of the Womb... and it's Biblical.

Look you guys...

People are in need of serious Truth right now. If you can't provide that, then at least don't mock the ones attempting to bring it.

I back up everything I say with verses.

I want to make a thread on this but the snowflakes around here can't seem to handle deep intelligent discussions based on Science and Fact.

But whatever... maybe I will and get banned.

I honestly don't care at this point.
Is this showing that mankind is the "beast"?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
That all sounds great if you are endeavoring to devise a doctrine.

But, if you read only what we are told in the Bible, he is simply told he will surely die. Beyond that, everything we have added to those four words spoken by God, is pure speculation. Ideas and concepts drawn from something other than what was said to Adam.

We are not even told what "die" meant to Adam. He had never seen a human "die". If he ever did see any animals "die", I seriously doubt he saw any non-stop suffering after they stopped breathing.

I know it is tough and frustrating to keep what we want to claim as "facts" limited to only what is written there for us to read. But, that is what we are required to do.
Which works well, as long as you ignore what Jesus taught about hell.
Matt. 5:22 (although read in context, since much of the Sermon on the Mound was about hell), Matt. 10:28, Matt. 18:9, Matt 23:23, Mark 9:42-50, Luke 12:5.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
i believe God loves His children and is our father so all will be reconciled finally and saved so i dont believe in annihilationism, but atleast its better than the eternal conciscous torment theory.
God bless you and keep you sister!!
Who are his children? (Not to be confused with his creation.)

And since when do we get a say in what God could do "better?" Do you even want to be telling God what he could do better?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Job 1:21
"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD"

Ecclesiastes 5:15
"As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand"

I gave you Two Witnesses.
Of what? LOL
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Luke 7:28
"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"


Do you know why John was the greatest?
Because he was the greatest pre Christian prophet,

Because he volunteered to come back at least twice. Maybe even three times if you count him as one of the Two Witnesses in Revelation
.

RUBBISH

Born of Women? Isn't that plural?

How can a man be born of more than one Woman?
It says 'those who are born of women.'
 
D

Depleted

Guest
That fact was even shown in the Garden of Eden. Before sin, life seems to keep on going. After sin, there comes an appointed time for every man to physically die, but it is not an immediate occurrence. After sin entered the world, man undergoes physical death. But in one case, there is no reversal of the condition, and in the other case, resurrection has been offered.

None of that indicates exactly what continuing without resurrection really means.
(Trying to pick a story everyone knows here)
So, with your way of thinking Star Wars was all about a fight between the Empire and Rebel Forces, but nothing whatsoever about the Skywalker family or the Jedis? The reason I ask, is you seem stuck at the beginning of the book, as if nothing happens after the beginning. It really does!
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Originally Posted by Base12
Remember to do what God tells us.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God within.

Human Anatomy.

Hell is a parable for the Womb.

It's God's version of the Easter Bunny or Santa I suppose because Christians are too squeamish to be told the hard core Truth.

Bunch of snowflakes in here I swear.

Because of this, many turn away from Christianity and go into Esoterism and Gnosticism because the Occultists aren't afraid to talk about these things.

Unfortunately, the Occultists spin the Truth of Hell into Alchemy and Phoenix symbolism...



Do any of you understand what is being shown in that image?

It's literally Old Testament verses put into art.

See the sides of the Pit?

See Lucifer being thrust through with a Sword?

See the Lake of Fire?

It's a picture of the Womb... and it's Biblical.

Look you guys...

People are in need of serious Truth right now. If you can't provide that, then at least don't mock the ones attempting to bring it.

I back up everything I say with verses.

I want to make a thread on this but the snowflakes around here can't seem to handle deep intelligent discussions based on Science and Fact.

But whatever... maybe I will and get banned.

I honestly don't care at this point.
with your occult images and pseudo science we don't mind either Goodbye
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
And playing the part of Elisha, we have this 'B Rated' ex-Hollywood deadbeat actor named John the Baptist.

He's not really the reincarnation of Elisha... he's simply "role playing" because God doesn't really mean what he says when he says...

Matthew 17:12
"But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them"


It's all just an act folks.

Maybe Jesus was merely role playing too?

:rolleyes:
He was the one LIKE Elijah (as prophesied in Malachi 3). No one but you thought any different.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
It is God's goodness that leads men to repentance. That is your starting premise. Not Hell, but God's grace. You reveal that while Hell is a reality, it is not an ultimatum of choice/demand but rather of circumstance. You explain historically what happened with Adam and Eve, its consequences on man, and what God the Father decided to do (send Jesus). God isn't out to get them for their sins or punish them, but Jesus, Himself, took the penalty of their wrongs. You inform them that God doesn't hold their sins against them, that Christ is the propitiation, and that He wants to be reconciled to them.

He doesn't condemn them, His desire is that they be saved. You don't need to threaten a person and use Hell, condemn them for their sin or anything of that sort. The Holy Spirit will convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Your job is to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ, and minister to them love. Operate in the gifts the Lord has given you, and operate in authority (the name of Jesus), to bring healing (sometimes physical, sometimes emotional). You, working with God, reveal to them His goodness that leads them to repentance.
What I'm hearing from you:

Judge: Jury, what say you?
Jury: GUILTY on all charge.
Judge to mass murderer: Don't worry about that. It's okay. God has grace. Just don't do it again. 'kay?

Dismissed!
 
Nov 1, 2016
489
6
0
Remember to do what God tells us.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God within.

Human Anatomy.

Hell is a parable for the Womb.

It's God's version of the Easter Bunny or Santa I suppose because Christians are too squeamish to be told the hard core Truth.

Bunch of snowflakes in here I swear.

Because of this, many turn away from Christianity and go into Esoterism and Gnosticism because the Occultists aren't afraid to talk about these things.

Unfortunately, the Occultists spin the Truth of Hell into Alchemy and Phoenix symbolism...



Do any of you understand what is being shown in that image?

It's literally Old Testament verses put into art.

See the sides of the Pit?

See Lucifer being thrust through with a Sword?

See the Lake of Fire?

It's a picture of the Womb... and it's Biblical.

Look you guys...

People are in need of serious Truth right now. If you can't provide that, then at least don't mock the ones attempting to bring it.

I back up everything I say with verses.

I want to make a thread on this but the snowflakes around here can't seem to handle deep intelligent discussions based on Science and Fact.

But whatever... maybe I will and get banned.

I honestly don't care at this point.
Is this showing that mankind is the "beast"?
Something like that, yes.

666 is the Carbon Atom. We are Carbon Based Life Forms.

So the word 'Beast' may simply mean we are 'trapped' in Carbon form.

The Mark of the Beast is a covenant with the flesh rather than Spirit.

Ultimately there is a Beast out of the Sea and Beast out of the Earth etc.

So there is a hierarchy of Beasts I suppose.

Note that in the image above, this particular being is being conceived in the month of Taurus, the Bull.

It also represents Moloch...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"


...and the Golden Calf of Hathor or ISIS.

See that?

When God tosses Children into the Lake of Fire, it is similar to Children being tossed into Moloch...

 
D

Depleted

Guest
i proclaim Christus Victor, the VICTORIOUS GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. the really good news, not bad news saying u will burn forever unless you do this and that and understand correctly everything......
many people are put off from Christ altogether because of bad experiences in the church or wicked christian parents who beat them or something, these people are victims too so lets show grace and love and proclaim victory over sin and death amen????!

Christ reconciled the world to God all that is in heaven and earth! there is no greater salvation than that, if you want to know details go to tentmaker.org for example they got nice material on universalism. God bless you and keep you brother!! 1 timothy 4:10 and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.
First, kudos on the effort to restrain multiple punctuation marks. Honest. I just found out I slouch, and I keep forgetting not to. So undoing a bad habit is hard, and I'm truly impressed how well you're fighting it.

Second, you're teaching a false gospel, which really doesn't do anything for anyone. If everyone is saved, who cares about this Jesus dude? Live and let live.