Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[mailmandan]

Sanctified by the blood of Jesus....seems a highly unlikely stretch of the imagination to ever come to the conclusion that this was an unbeliever. Be honest with yourself.

Then this same person insulting the Spirit of Grace? An Unbeliever? An unregenerated person insulting the Spirit of Grace? Be honest with yourself.

Guys, its time to move on from milk to solid food. That starts with being honest with yourselves on this.

Hold onto dogma's created by man? Or look at the plain word of scripture.

We are all here not playing games. We want to get to the truth. Its in the interests of all in this community that we grow up into Christ. If your dogma needs a rethink - then do so. Pride holds a person back.

SO WHAT if you have defended these points your whole life? If you are presented with evidence that something was incorrect in your thinking, then humble yourselves. Pray to God. He will tell you whether you are right, or I am right on this.

Do so tonight.

P.S. not trying to be arrogant here. Let's just get real with one another.

Again, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer. *Be sure to thoroughly read post #875 again and don't forget about verse 39.

 

[Grace777x70]

Let's look at Jude's first verse. He talks about "believers" before he goes on to talk about "unbelievers" that are hidden reefs in our love feasts - devoid of the Spirit.
'

Jude 1:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jude says that believers that have Christ in them are preserved in Jesus Christ.


Here is the fun part - preserved is in the perfect tense and passive voice in the Greek text.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

And example of this is when Jesus said "It is finished". It's a done deal and fully completed and remains that way for eternity.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that those who have received Christ are preserved by Him from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that is put on them continuously in the present tense....not something they did for themselves.

Jesus Christ our Lord is the only Savior. We do not save ourselves. We have a great salvation in Him. Repent and believe the gospel just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

 

[fredoheaven]

And even believers can fall away. As can be seen below:

The Just Live by Faith

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29[/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


T-H-E-S-E W-E-R-E B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S

The Lord will judge His people. No doubt about that, there is a Judgment Seat of Christ (JSOC) for believers works. However, what you miss is the point that this judgment are for the ADVERSARIES (v. 27) definitely this judgment is for “vengeance” (v.30) to enemies of the cross.

And then again, Paul is dealing with the “if” taking for another shot of impossibility, for a real believers cannot sin willfully.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No. The OP is about whether a believer, after he/she is saved, can be "unsaved": It's the same thing. Falling away is to lose your salvation. Its a rejection of Christ.

What happens to the person who is born again and (according to you) loses his/her salvation, then decides he/she wants to come back to Christ? Does that person get born again a second time?

bump for Chris1975 ...

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Let's look at Jude's first verse. He talks about "believers" before he goes on to talk about "unbelievers" that are hidden reefs in our love feasts - devoid of the Spirit.
'

Jude 1:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Jude says that believers that have Christ in them are preserved in Jesus Christ.


Here is the fun part - preserved is in the perfect tense and passive voice in the Greek text.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

And example of this is when Jesus said "It is finished". It's a done deal and fully completed and remains that way for eternity.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that those who have received Christ are preserved by Him from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that is put on them continuously in the present tense....not something they did for themselves.

Jesus Christ our Lord is the only Savior. We do not save ourselves. We have a great salvation in Him. Repent and believe the gospel just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

Why does the Gospel warn believers then of these unbelievers? If believers are secured from the start.

Dont you understand of course what Christ did has open the way to salvation past tense and always working. Its there, the gift is always there. All scripture goes right along with all the scriptures that basically say remain in the vine and God will perserve us to the end.

Its all just have a true faith and God will work in you.

John 15New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches
15*“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2*He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3*You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4*Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Any branch that remains he prunes, that is definitely being preserved. Branches are believers that must remain in Christ.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The point is free will exists from beginning to end.

If you deal with temptations and sin then thats proof of free will in the life of a believer.

 

[Katy-follower]

Apostates Depraved and Doomed

Jude
[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Twice Dead - means dead in sin (once dead); born again (alive); apostate/falling away (twice dead).
For them is reserves the blackness of darkness forever.

Chris - you cannot just cut and paste random bits and not acknowledge the rest of the chapter. This is how you get the wrong context. The warnings are to contend for the faith and be aware of those who have crept in, people who are said to not have the Spirit (v19) - these people are not saved...


Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you (this is addressing believers)

Beloved (believers), while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith (warning) which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ
(these are non believers/tares. Distinction is made between believers and non believers here)


But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (an example given of those in Sodom and Gomorrah who also did not believe - vengeance was on those people, not on believers)

Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit (sounds like prosperity gospel), and perished in the rebellion of Korah
(remember Cain was called a child of satan, he was not a believer either - 1 John 3:12, John 8:44)


These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
(the tares will sit with the wheat, as described in the earlier part of the chapter - they deny the Lord - they have crept in unnoticed) (they are trees without fruit - a dead tree even that is pulled up by the roots so it is twice dead - wow to these descriptions of them!)

These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved (believers), remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

But you, beloved (believers), building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.


Now to Him (Jesus) who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

 

[Katy-follower]

How can an unbeliever be twice dead?

Context.

These men are so evil that saying they are dead trees is not enough.... pulled up at the roots also. That's a pretty extreme description of them.

Dead trees with no fruit. Dead trees and roots also pulled up.

Believers bear fruit.

Matthew 7:15-20: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them"

 

[Chris1975]

The Lord will judge His people. No doubt about that, there is a Judgment Seat of Christ (JSOC) for believers works. However, what you miss is the point that this judgment are for the ADVERSARIES (v. 27) definitely this judgment is for “vengeance” (v.30) to enemies of the cross.

And then again, Paul is dealing with the “if” taking for another shot of impossibility, for a real believers cannot sin willfully.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

verse 26 and 27 are connected. They are not talking about two sets of people. Those who sin willfully (non repentant, ongoing, their consciences being seared ---- are the adversaries). Then we can see in vesre 29, its still the same people. Then we can see in Verse 30 the Lord exacting vengeance on His people. As he did to Israel in the desert, so too in the new covenant to those who have the mindset we see in verse 26.

Nice try, but you can't simply substitute out at will.

 

[Katy-follower]

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

1 John 2:19-20: "(Children)...They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us (the non believers are revealed)

But you (believers) have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth



Don't confuse the wheat with the tares. Wheat cannot become tares. BUT a tare can pretend to be wheat when really it's a weed all along. As the scripture above says, the weeds will be revealed when they come out from among us, because they were not of us. They will be known by their fruits. As in my post #887 - there are those who do not have the Spirit.

 

[Chris1975]

What happens to the person who is born again and (according to you) loses his/her salvation, then decides he/she wants to come back to Christ? Does that person get born again a second time?

Sorry Reneweddaybyday...I missed this earlier comment of yours.

It works as follows:

1) Unregenerated (Body/Soul) - being only led by the Flesh. Soul tends to only follow the lusts of the flesh, lusts of the eyes and pride of life. Spirit is dead. The state of Adam post the fall. The state of all persons who are born into sin.
2) A work of Grace happens. This person hears the Gospel and believes (this initial gift of faith is from God), A gift that is free, unearned. No amount of works can earn it. The Spirit within a person comes to life. This person is 'born again'. They are now flesh, soul and Spirit.

Flesh (Body) remains corrupted. It was the old master. It is to be crucifed with Christ. Romans 6 v3-6
Soul - This is where the decisions are made. The "Mind". Do you live to gratify the desires of the Flesh? Or do you live by The Spirit. See Romans 8 v1-14.
Spirit - this is the incorruptible Seed of God (1 Peter 1v23). The Spirit leads and guides the new believer into truth.

The believer is left with a choice.

Romans 8v12-14

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

And the believers choice is the same as the choice that Adam had. Free will. Will you heed the leading of the Spirit? Or will you like Adam gratify the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life.

James 1 v21-25
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; [SUP]24 [/SUP]for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.


>> The problem comes here:

James 1 v12-15
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.


This is applicable to the CHURCH. These are not words for those on the outside, but those on the inside.

Yet a believer (yes a true believer), should they continue in willful sin, refusing to repent, ignoring the prompting and leading of the Spirit (see above) to turn back to God......then these believers love for God turns cold (Matthew 24v12). Those who love me obey me (John 14v23). So its possible for love to grow cold through disobedience. And we know that sin, when its fully grown brings forth death (James 1v15). This is because the believer turns away (falls away). This is confirmed by Hebrew 10v26 (willful unrepentance) and then Hebrews 6 v4-6 (leading to unbelief).

Thats why Paul warns the Thessalonian Church - "Do not quench the Spirit" 1 Thess 5v19. That very NEW BIRTH that was experienced....that birth of the Spirit within a believer.....can be quenched. How? Though Sin leading to Unbelief.

So to answer your question fully: Sin can be repented of. And SHOULD BE. However if one who has been born again FALLS AWAY into unbelief ----- then Hebrews 6 v4-6 (God's Word) is true. It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

 

[Chris1975]

Why does the Gospel warn believers then of these unbelievers? If believers are secured from the start.

Dont you understand of course what Christ did has open the way to salvation past tense and always working. Its there, the gift is always there. All scripture goes right along with all the scriptures that basically say remain in the vine and God will perserve us to the end.

Its all just have a true faith and God will work in you.

John 15New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches
15*“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2*He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3*You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4*Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Any branch that remains he prunes, that is definitely being preserved. Branches are believers that must remain in Christ.

2*He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit
The parable is true. That branch WAS connected to the vine.

 

[fredoheaven]

verse 26 and 27 are connected. They are not talking about two sets of people. Those who sin willfully (non repentant, ongoing, their consciences being seared ---- are the adversaries). Then we can see in vesre 29, its still the same people. Then we can see in Verse 30 the Lord exacting vengeance on His people. As he did to Israel in the desert, so too in the new covenant to those who have the mindset we see in verse 26.

Nice try, but you can't simply substitute out at will.

Point 1. “If” The writer is taking us to some point whether there is possibility of ‘sinning willfully’ which literally it is impossible for a real saved to do that. Supposing, the bible is clear, there remained no more sacrifice for sin since Christ did all that ONCE. Insisting that kind of belief you will have to go through animal sacrifice but verse 4 says sorry, this is not possible.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Point 2. “But” (conjuction) My google dictionariy says:
“used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.”
So, the writer is simply contrasting.

Point 3. “Adversaries” are the enemies just like the devil and his co-hosts. You said they are those who are“…ongoing”, are you not then contradicting the entirety of the Bible saying real/ saved believers have an ongoing sin/s? In contrary, saved believers do not continue or have an on-going sin/s.

 

[Chris1975]

1 John 2:19-20: "(Children)...They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us (the non believers are revealed)

But you (believers) have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth



Don't confuse the wheat with the tares. Wheat cannot become tares. BUT a tare can pretend to be wheat when really it's a weed all along. As the scripture above says, the weeds will be revealed when they come out from among us, because they were not of us. They will be known by their fruits. As in my post #887 - there are those who do not have the Spirit.

The ones who were "Not with us" are defined by the scripture in the preceding verse (verse 18 - antichrist).
These are not the same ones referred to as having departed from the faith.

Unless you are somehow implying that the antichrists were previously in the faith? No.

So the ones who have departed from the faith, were ones who were previously in the faith. A Believer who falls away. The scripture is clear.

 

[Chris1975]

[video=youtube;4igbsiwgP3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4igbsiwgP3o[/video]

 

[Johnny_B]

This OP reflects the belief that righteousness is an eternal possession, rather than GOD's imputation and righteous behavior. In other words, the belief that a person can be righteous yet do unrighteous things. But John is clear:

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are evident: everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10​

Are you saying that believing that the Father sent His Son into the world so that the world might be saved through Him, is not practicing righteousness, with the proof being loving the saints?

 

[Katy-follower]

One little nugget to share....

Scripture says there is only ONE unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. We all know that dying without Jesus (as a non believer) is unforgivable. So this must be the ONE unforgivable sin mentioned as there can't be more than one.

Based on this alone.... there is no other sin that is unforgivable. So those claiming a true believer can lose their salvation and end up in hell - this is a complete contradiction. Can you see this?!

 

[Chris1975]

One little nugget to share....

Scripture says there is only ONE unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. We all know that dying without Jesus (as a non believer) is unforgivable. So this must be the ONE unforgivable sin mentioned as there can't be more than one.

Based on this alone.... there is no other sin that is unforgivable. So those claiming a true believer can lose their salvation and end up in hell - this is a complete contradiction. Can you see this?!

Please re-read what I have posted to reneweddaybyday above. I am showing, through scripture, how a believer can fall into unbelief. Then you will see that there is no contradiction to the point you just made. Willfuly living in sin (after having believed) Heb 10v26 - leads to Unbelief (after having believed) Hebrews 6v4-6 leads to the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit Mark 3v29.

The evidence for "after having believed" is contained within the scripture above. And is totally harmonious with your assertion in Mark 3v29 (which is linked to Hebrews 6v4 - have become partakers of the Holy Spirit).

 

[Katy-follower]

My Mac is dragging, so probably a sign I need to sleep, lol.

Will go through the other replies later.

I will say though that scripture does not contradict itself. Eternal is eternal. You can't change the meaning of eternal, no matter how hard you try. When I read scriptures such as "sealed unto the day of redemption" this is enough for me, and should be for other believers also. The Holy Spirit is our deposit, our guarantee. The scriptures do not say "sealed until your next sin" or "sealed temporarily/partially" so all this should be clear. And one cannot be physically unborn, climbing back into their mother's womb... so too they cannot be spiritually unborn.

The truth shall set you free!! No longer condemned!!! Free from bondage!!!

The enemy is trying to drag believers back to bondage...

 

[mailmandan]

Why does the Gospel warn believers then of these unbelievers? If believers are secured from the start.

The Gospel is not a warning to believers about unbelievers. The Gospel is the "good news" about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Jude is not warning believers that these unbelievers will cause them to lose their salvation. Instead, Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed.

Don't you understand of course what Christ did has open the way to salvation past tense and always working. Its there, the gift is always there. All scripture goes right along with all the scriptures that basically say remain in the vine and God will perserve us to the end.

What is demonstrated by remaining and what is demonstrated by not remaining? See John 6:60-70; 8:31-37; 10:27-29; 1 John 2:19. God does not merely preserve those who preserve themselves. He preserves His saints/believers (Psalm 37:28) and not make believers. 1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Its all just have a true faith and God will work in you.

There are true believers and there are make believers.

John 15New International Version (NIV)

The Vine and the Branches
15*“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2*He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3*You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4*Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Any branch that remains he prunes, that is definitely being preserved. Branches are believers that must remain in Christ.

Must remain in Christ or will? In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit, but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

*When Jesus spoke these words, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. *You need to rightly divide the word of truth here. In Ephesians 1:13, we read, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *Was this a present reality for those prior to Christ being glorified when Jesus spoke these words?

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, (like Judas Iscariot) He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches (make believers) are identified as not belonging to the vine, wither and are cast into the fire, unlike the remaining 11 disciples who had a spiritual and vital connection with the vine.