Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[PeterJens]

You don't really know what you are talking about and this is why I don't pay much attention to your ramblings. I also don't appreciate your childish insults.

Matthew 10:43 - Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Matthew 25:37 - Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

*Believers are accounted as righteous.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Dan - you are right, God blesses the righteous. And the righteous are sinners saved by
grace who walk in the way, the commands of Jesus, flowing with love from their hearts.

It is hard for you to say "you righteous are evil" and quote God blessing the righteous.

The hypocrites appear good but commit sin. It is the sin that makes them hypocrites.
Sin matters, sin defines who is saved and who is not. The cross came to remove sin
from peoples lives, to make them clean, pure and holy.

Let me take Peter. False teachers are shown by their teaching and behaviour.

"With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!"
2 Peter 2:14

There are two spiritual realities. Walking in the Spirit leads to a righteous life.
Walking in apostacy leads to sins of the flesh. If you find yourself bound by sins
of the flesh you are walking in some form of unbelief and dishonour to the Lord.

So if you want to criticise a theological stand, find out the scripture that supports
them and show its failure and look at the moral basis of their teaching.

If love and righteousness do not register you know it is not of the Holy Spirit.

And if they are bringing glory to Christ and His resurrection, bringing love and
righteousness into peoples lives they are my brothers and sisters.

It is why I find it odd to be told how wrong I am, by people who on the face of
it should be ok. As long as you do not go into calling me satan or demon possessed
there is always a level we can grow in understanding.

And by the way, I know how easy it is to go down this road, but it is the way of
the flesh and human understanding, us and them. And you can end denying God,
so I wish you well, and hope you can here a sincere man who just wonders why so
much antagonism about how to follow Christ, when this should echo in your heart.

And Dan, I know you have a good heart, and desire blessing of others.
Why not believe died to make you clean, not just a covering, but the real thing?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God created in everyone a soul and a brain. In between the soul and the brain something happens when we hear the word for the first time. Faith is only given a name once we hear of the word. Then we have a choice to believe or not.

Once we believe we can grow in faith as God helps us growing in measurements of faith. And we grow in these measurements we use our level of faith to serve within Gods kingdom as a greeter at church all the way up to teaching. What ever level we currently are in faith.

 

[PeterJens]

You said I made a mistake by characterizing believers as righteous. I showed you from scripture that believers are called righteous, so I engaged with you, yet you accused me of not engaging with you. You also said my method of talking to people is plain stupid and you also accused me of lacking in sense. Why should I even bother to take you seriously?

Sorry. I did not say you had made a mistake characterising believers as righteous.
Believers who are washed clean by the cross and the blood are righteous and can walk righteously.
Their faith or relationship with God is reconned as righteousness which covers their failures and learning
to walk. It resolves the concept of gaining salvation and loosing it constantly which used to be the
retort of people talking about a righteous walk.

I had a thought. Isaiah said this

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
Isaiah 6:6-7

Isaiah was made holy. His guilt was gone and sin atoned for.
This is Gods gospel, once cleaned and purified what will you do?

Defilement is what comes out of our hearts because of emotional
conflict, hurt, hidden issues and complexities. These take time to
walk through and heal, to straighten and make whole.

It is this reality and this walk we proclaim and defend. It is why we are
saved, to be one with Christ, in heart, soul and mind.

 

[garee]

I only wanted truth, and what spoke to me in my heart.

According to the grace of God? It seems you put the cart before the horse and reduce sin to a temporal wage.

If any man has not the “eternal” Spirit of Christ than neither do they know Christ as belonging to Him.

Remember no man can come to God save by His grace in His work of drawing, and not that of ones own self. Those he is drawing in no way shape or form will he cast them out. It would be impossible seeing he does all the work of salvation and nothing is accreted to the clay He forms Christ in. If he has begun the good work He will finish it .We can take that to the soul redemption bank.

If Christ spoke to your heart it must in respect to His grace teaching a person to say no to those who do despite to His grace. Without that grace coming entirely from His work of faith, as a labor of His love doing the first work no man could please Him.

It is not something we are born with or work for to gain But rather something we can work out because it is Christ working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Accrediting His grace to oneself simply blasphemes the Holy name by which we are called heavenward.

So I started to follow Christ, and discover spiritual realities for myself, holding to truth being the greatest ethic, testing and working things through.

Those in Hebrews 6 also believed they of their own self discovered the spiritual realties .and decided that Christ must be re crucified every time they sin. The idea that Christ paid the full “eternal” wage of sin past, present, and future called daily redemption would not allow them to have some false pride in that they call grace . Better things than doing despite to the Spirit of grace accompanies salvation.

No man of his own volition can seek after Christ and therefore understand. Grace is the cause and effect of Christ’s faith that works in our heart. It does not come from our heart but is that which purifying our heart as he daily cleanses us from

sin..

So today I stand, with a clean heart and a purified soul through the blood of Christ
and the work of the Holy Spirit. It changes things, in ways you experience rather than understand.

We walk by the same spirit of faith according as it is written not by our experiences. The Jews walking after their own experience as a sign stumbled over the grace of Christ.(the cross) we are not to sek after signs according to what we do experience.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:22

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yall ask is God a lier. Why does Jesus's say remain in him if we had not the choice? Now it would be yall making him a lier.

Or would yall believe God to be unwise for warning believers of something that yall say God doesn't allow. That would be calling God illogical which God does not do anything in less its logical.

In my thread study on apostasy i have brought many biblical scripture speaking to believers about apostasy or warnings that could end up in apostasy. And proven thats what they speak on to believers.

So it just comes to a point when you see both scripture then we must see how they work together as one. Not make one work with the other, but both work in unity.

This is what you get when you mix justification (salvation) with sanctification (Christian Growth)

You get slanderous comments (you guys who teach grace alone through faith alone ignore this, and call Jesus a liar)

When in actuality, This passage is speaking of sanctification of a child of God.

If they abide in christ, they will do mighty works, and be rewarded (gold silver precious stone) And live a life blessed and joyous.

If they turn to the flesh. they will not do mighty works, And receive reward, (wood hey and straw) which will be burned. and their life will not be blessed, and they will not have any joy, but most likely sorrow.

You can have three people. all doing the same work (say like feed the poor)

1. Relys on the power of God, Bears fruit and recieves reward
2. Relys on self power (flesh) and does not bear fruit, and recieves a reward they would rather not recieve
3. Relys on self, and doing it for self benefit. Because he is not a child of God, even if he thinks he is. Will stand on this work on the day of judgment (great white throne) and it will all be for nothing, because he still was dead in his sin (depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Corinthians 8v3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

John14v15
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, keep[SUP][d][/SUP] My commandments.

Matthew 7
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Having some fun with colours. See if you can figure it out

It is easy, I can only wonder why you have not figured it out.

We love because God first loved us (he saved us, so salvation HAS TO COME FIRST)

and because of that.

1. We love God, because he first loved us, Thus we keep his commands,
2. We are known by him, because we are born of him (adopted as his child)
3. Those who were never born of him, He never knew, They will not love him , and will not keep his commands. (they may act like it, it is these works they did in acting like a christian that they will claim they did in Jesus name)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

For Jesus to say I never knew you could of very well been Jesus saying what he will tell all people who claim to know Jesus. Even the ones who apostatized being faced with the God they had once doubted and walked away from. Jesus will probably say the same thing. It was as if Jesus never knew them.

We either follow God or dont. Jesus either knows you or dont. No lukewarm with God. So even the ones who apostasy will be as if God never knew them.

I doubt God will say well i knew you in your 20s but then in your 30s on Saturday may 6th 2015 you walked away from me forever. So i knew you then but now i dont know you.

He will probably be very direct and say i never knew you be gone.

If those who "fall away" were at one time born again (I believe that is what some on this thread are claiming), then Jesus knew them at one time.

The reason Jesus knows the born again one is because the riches of the glory of the mystery is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col 1:27).


So for Jesus to claim He never knew them, He would be lying. And Jesus does not/will not/cannot lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One must wonder how shaul would respond to your lack of ability to understand.

Shaul? Who is that? If you can not speak english how do you expect anyone to respond to you?

Don't fool yourself with saying good things you want to be. Be what you want I'm not gonna judge you. In fact I don't want to. By the way it's the only way to know how to be sanctified. If it wasn't for the law we would not know of sin and on that subject we wouldn't know rightousness either because it also revealed this. Unless you have had the great pleasure to walk with Messiah and learn directly from him I would say the law is also meant for sinner's like us to know how to better serve in Elohims Kingdom.

Thats your problem, The law can not show you ever sin, THAT IS WHY IT CAN NOT MAKE YOU RIGHTEOUS.

The law gives you a baseline, These things are sin, But it does not tell you every single sin you could commit, That is why the pharisee went around thinking they were righteous, Because they THOUGHT they obeyed the law.

Jesus tried to tell them they did not, But they could not get their mind of the law to focus on their messiah.

You want to be hebrew roots (thats what you sound like). Thats on you.. Me I want to find out what God wants me to do. And live that life, and he told me, By THE LAW OF LOVE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For Jesus to say I never knew you could of very well been Jesus saying what he will tell all people who claim to know Jesus. Even the ones who apostatized being faced with the God they had once doubted and walked away from. Jesus will probably say the same thing. It was as if Jesus never knew them.

We either follow God or dont. Jesus either knows you or dont. No lukewarm with God. So even the ones who apostasy will be as if God never knew them.

I doubt God will say well i knew you in your 20s but then in your 30s on Saturday may 6th 2015 you walked away from me forever. So i knew you then but now i dont know you.

He will probably be very direct and say i never knew you be gone.

Yeah this works.

Lets see, You said this earlier.

Yall ask is God a lier.

And now, You want to make God a liar. By telling someone he knew intimately at one time when they were his children, That he never knew them.

This is called twisting the word of God so it fits your belief system. as well as contradicting yourself.. (saying we call Jesus a liar, when we do not. Yet you do)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

^^ correct.

Ezekiel 18
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

This does not say God never knew them.

Nice try though.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

noun 1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.

So a believer who no longer believes.

So God saves a person he KNOWS will walk away?

Oh thats right, I already asked this question, You refuse to answer, Of course we all know why. You do not understand the omniscience of God. or the character of God, So God can make mistakes and save someone and give them eternal life. because he is fooled by their so called faith (which was no faith at all)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does God say? As is evidenced by this scripture I shared.... The apostates do not have the Spirit. This is from the bible, not me. Those who do not have the Spirit are not saved. Do you reject the scriptures to keep your personal view? Read through the entire chapter and see for yourself.

Just think about how heaven would respond if this were true, God saved an apostate, and had to take back his salvation.

There would be another rebellion in heaven. God is not as perfect as he claims.. Shoot, Satan might even have means for an aquital.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah - they are twice dead.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

You need to go back further

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


These are the people who are "twice dead"
A study of the character and essence of God would do you some good.

 

[Chris1975]

This does not say God never knew them.

Nice try though.

How could they be righteous without God having made them righteous in the first place? You step into your own ditch.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very true! Amen! I take also noticed of verse 4a

"For there are certain men crept in unawares,"

so true that before falling away, they have first crept in unawares. Such presence of apostates-pretenders within is a creepy thing.

God bless

Ya beat me to it Bro. Amen. These are outsiders who snuck in.. Not children of God..

 

[Chris1975]

You need to go back further

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.




These are the people who are "twice dead"
A study of the character and essence of God would do you some good.

Go read up on the topic of Election. Then we can discuss.

 

[garee]

Dan - you are right, God blesses the righteous. And the righteous are sinners saved by
grace who walk in the way, the commands of Jesus, flowing with love from their hearts

Yes he blesses us by giving us a new spirit that will never die making of righteous by that product of His grace coming from His work of faith.

What were the righteous that God blessing by a work in respect to His grace before they were righteous? No man will(impossible) be found with one of thier own self.

Who is it that will pay the eternal debt of your sin next time you fall from his grace if it is His grace that keeps you alive. Will you have to recrucify Chrst seeing you teach future sins we will comit are not attoned for?

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their "own righteousness", have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness "of God".

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Which master will you follow after seing no man can serve two?

In respect to the work of Christ's faith as a labor of His love or that work required to pay for every sin of your own self?


Rather than walking by faith it seems you turn things upside down, something the apostate Jews performed.

 

[Chris1975]

So God saves a person he KNOWS will walk away?

Oh thats right, I already asked this question, You refuse to answer, Of course we all know why. You do not understand the omniscience of God. or the character of God, So God can make mistakes and save someone and give them eternal life. because he is fooled by their so called faith (which was no faith at all)

Salvation is an "overcoming". We are saved - point in time. Then we work out our salvation (with fear and trembling). Then to those who "overcome" he will grant everlasting life.

At any point during the process, if the believer turns his back on God, then he is an apostate.

Plenty scriptures for the above. Go look them up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]1 Timothy 1 NLT

19 [/SUP]Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

1 Timothy 1 AMP

[SUP]19 [/SUP]keeping your faith [leaning completely on God with absolute trust and confidence in His guidance] and having a good conscience; for some [people] have rejected [their moral compass] and have made a shipwreck of their faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have [SUP][d][/SUP]handed over to Satan, so that they will be disciplined and taught not to blaspheme.

Yep. they sure lost their salvation, Thats why Paul chastened them, So they would learn from their mistakes.

Oh wait,, Chastening only happens to children of God. not people who are not saved (or lost salvation)

oops..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I truly believe satin wants believers to believe in OSAS just so that they can become falsely aware of true faith.

OSAS lie is a great way to defeat someone who thinks they are saved from just uttering a few words.

After all what was the first lie?
Genesis 3
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.

Satin has been using that old lie for a long time.

Nah, He wants people to believe like you, SO they THINK they understand true faith, and that this faith is in God.

People who believe in eternal security have a faith that can not be broken, Because it is faith in God, Not how well they perform. It is faith that God will be with then through thick and thin, Through the good times and bad, That like the "footprints in the sand" picture i have on my wall, The times we think God left us are the times God carry us. They he will perfect what he started. That he will keep his word.

We have no reason to lose faith. Because our faith is in the perfect God.. WHo will never let us down.

I like how you tried to compair Eve (perfect) to us (needing to be saved because we are not perfect) to prove we can lose salvation. This just shows what part of your problem is.

Eve had no salvation to lose, She stood before god on her own merit, and could walk freely with God.

You and I can not do this, no matter how long we have been saved, and how spiritually mature we are. We still woudl not be able to walk with God based on our own merit.

When you realise this, that lighbulb will go on. (like it did for Saul) . I pray you do.. I really do.