Female pastors, ok or not?

[Angela53510]

I don't recall anyone saying anything about women staying home and just having babies. This is coming from only you. Please provide any post on this thread that has said that. My wife is a full time mom and works full time. I'm a full time dad and work full time.

It wasn't a man that said it! It was a woman! I forget the name - pages 7-10 somewhere? Not going to look, either.
And I did NOT say women should not be a full time wife and mother! That is a good thing! But not a "role" that women are required to do. It is the "normal" mode for most women. But not the only.

I do find it funny though, that men can be good fathers and husbands, but also have a job, be a pastor, etc. But if a women does that, some think that is wrong. (I'm speaking of a woman, not you!) Someone said that on this thread. "A woman can not be a pastor, because it takes away from her being a good wife and mother."

Tell that to my daughter-in-law who is a doctor, and her kids have been raised so much better than the DIL who is a full time mom, never gets it together to make supper, the kids are never dressed, they are spoiled, to say nothing of her denial about the one with autism who is not getting proper treatment, because she won't allow them to help because he is not autistic?

Not saying that is all women, but my one DIL is a super-woman, decorating cakes with the kids, playing colouring, playing outside with them, etc. But my son does help a lot, because he was raised to believe men and women are equal partners in a marriage, and that includes making supper, clearing up, reading and bathing the kids, and generally playing with them a lot.

So yes, women are allowed to be mothers and wives. Most men don't want to do that. But, again, it is not the only thing God calls women to do!

 

[Angela53510]

I believe that God designed men to lead, which is why He appointed them as head of the household, and women are to submit to their husbands. Adam was created first, then Eve was created as a helper for Adam, though the scriptures indicate they were made equally in God's eyes.

I think we can see how God views our roles by looking at how He designed marriage. He created us differently for a reason, and gives us roles to compliment each other. Women are the nurturers, taking care of the children and tending to the house. This is why gay families don't work. Not only are they sinful, but children need that balance from both a mum and a dad.

If women take on roles of leadership/pastor then will they be neglecting their role of mother and wife? Maybe this was God's concern, because the leadership would be a focus in their life. They would also be taking away the role of a man, who is the one called to lead. Christ is the head of the church, and a man is head of the household. Women can still evangelize and share with others, just that I don't think they are to take a position of authority/leadership within the church. I would think that a women's bible group or similar would be different though.

I'm feminine anyway, so I like to let men be men. We were created different for a reason

I wonder too if this is mostly an American thing? I'm from England and I noticed when I moved here to the US that women here are stronger, more outspoken and there is a loss of femininity here, not like in Europe, and in some cases American women emasculate their men. Not saying all, but just an observation of some. I wonder if feminism has led to women taking more leadership roles within their homes even. I've also noticed that it seems common for black women to take charge of their men. I wonder if it has something to do with when the men were taken as slaves that the women were forced to take on that leadership role in their households, and then raise their children to do the same, as it seems that tradition continues. The only exception seems to be in christian households where it's clear to see the man leading. On the other extreme I've noticed in some latino families that the older men especially (old school) will just sit there and not lift a finger, expecting to be waited on by the woman (hand and foot). Not even help with the dishes?

Not criticizing anyone, just that I find it interesting. Even religion itself mingles in as part of a country's identity. For example, if you were born somewhere in South America, the majority are Roman Catholic there and raise their children that way.

I think ultimately if a woman feels she is being called by God then she needs to pray on it, and whether it will affect her role of mother and wife if she took on a leadership role. And women that are currently pastors, I believe God still uses them. Just giving my thoughts. Sorry, went a bit off topic

I don't recall anyone saying anything about women staying home and just having babies. This is coming from only you. Please provide any post on this thread that has said that. My wife is a full time mom and works full time. I'm a full time dad and work full time.

The above quote is on page 5.

Quite clear that being in leadership means that women will neglect their "role of mother and wife." And this, is why, in fact, that God said that women should not be in leadership. I would have loved some Bible quotes to back this up, but I am not holding my breath. Even if you want to discuss women as pastors, the Bible never says women should be stay at home moms and wives, although that was a cultural norm in the 1950's and 1960's.

Again, the collorary of this is that men in leadership will neglect their roles as "husband and father." But no one says this, do they? Because it is absurd. My mom was a stay at home mom. She was a brilliant woman, who put my father through university. And I am not just talking about a Bachelor's but a Master's and a Ph.D. By the time my sister left home, she was a depressed and lonely person. She would have had so much of a better life, if she had just gone to school, taken math and science, and had a good career. Instead, she is a neurotic mess. She was not a Christian in those days, but she sure should have done something besides be a wife and mom! Because when the children leave home, and often the man dies before the woman, that can leave a woman who has nothing, if being a wife and mother is the only thing in her life.

Sorry, this post does allow for God using women at the end. Which doesn't sync with what is above, but that is her opinion, I guess.

 

[oldethennew]

Angela,

dear, sweet, Sister, you know that this is a 'subject' that the wicked-one loves to use,
over and over and over and, always trying to entangle whom-ever he can...

TY so much for sharing the Truth...

 

[CeileDe]

It wasn't a man that said it! It was a woman! I forget the name - pages 7-10 somewhere? Not going to look, either.
And I did NOT say women should not be a full time wife and mother! That is a good thing! But not a "role" that women are required to do. It is the "normal" mode for most women. But not the only.

I do find it funny though, that men can be good fathers and husbands, but also have a job, be a pastor, etc. But if a women does that, some think that is wrong. (I'm speaking of a woman, not you!) Someone said that on this thread. "A woman can not be a pastor, because it takes away from her being a good wife and mother."

Tell that to my daughter-in-law who is a doctor, and her kids have been raised so much better than the DIL who is a full time mom, never gets it together to make supper, the kids are never dressed, they are spoiled, to say nothing of her denial about the one with autism who is not getting proper treatment, because she won't allow them to help because he is not autistic?

Not saying that is all women, but my one DIL is a super-woman, decorating cakes with the kids, playing colouring, playing outside with them, etc. But my son does help a lot, because he was raised to believe men and women are equal partners in a marriage, and that includes making supper, clearing up, reading and bathing the kids, and generally playing with them a lot.

So yes, women are allowed to be mothers and wives. Most men don't want to do that. But, again, it is not the only thing God calls women to do!

Sorry, I guess I missed that one

 

[Johnny_B]

Sorry, I guess I missed that one

The mark of a believer.

 

[Rockrz]

you know that this is a 'subject' that the wicked-one loves to use

Yeah, that's cause the wicked one knows God said women cannot be overseers (pastors) in His Word, and that God said woman cannot usurp authority over men in His Word and he is hell bent on trying to get people to oppose God's Word like he does so he can lead them in to error.

this post does allow for God using women

Yes, the Lord uses women in help ministry but not to be pastors and to be in authority over men.

God does NOT say one thing in His Word and then do the opposite... that's how we know it's a different jesus (angel of light, devils) that attempt to get women to be in authority in the church because it is in error... and error begats more error... and satan smiles.

 

[willybob]

"pastors" is generic in the plural. Not a proper noun, and especially not singular..Paul never addressed anyone as Pastor..In fact the word is only one time in the NT...it means one who sheperds, and not a title of recognition..They are lowly servants and recognized without announcement. The one man Pastor idea is the same as the Catholic Father concept, both are illegitimate in nature and are of men of renown..

 

[Rockrz]

...it means one who sheperds

A sheperd is an overseer, a leader which woment cannot be scripturally over men because that's not God's order as in He never intended for women to lead men.

Women leading men was a satanic idea as we see in the Garden of Eden when Eve led Adam into sin... and like a dummy Adam followed right along.

You'd think people would see this and get a clue... but apparently not since the appetite for deception in the last days continues to grow.

 

[Katy-follower]

The above quote is on page 5.

Quite clear that being in leadership means that women will neglect their "role of mother and wife." And this, is why, in fact, that God said that women should not be in leadership. I would have loved some Bible quotes to back this up, but I am not holding my breath. Even if you want to discuss women as pastors, the Bible never says women should be stay at home moms and wives, although that was a cultural norm in the 1950's and 1960's.

Again, the collorary of this is that men in leadership will neglect their roles as "husband and father." But no one says this, do they? Because it is absurd. My mom was a stay at home mom. She was a brilliant woman, who put my father through university. And I am not just talking about a Bachelor's but a Master's and a Ph.D. By the time my sister left home, she was a depressed and lonely person. She would have had so much of a better life, if she had just gone to school, taken math and science, and had a good career. Instead, she is a neurotic mess. She was not a Christian in those days, but she sure should have done something besides be a wife and mom! Because when the children leave home, and often the man dies before the woman, that can leave a woman who has nothing, if being a wife and mother is the only thing in her life.

Sorry, this post does allow for God using women at the end. Which doesn't sync with what is above, but that is her opinion, I guess.

Gosh Angela, maybe you misunderstood my post. I didn't claim that was a reason God does not want women as leaders. I simply brought it up as a question, as food for thought, basing it only on how He views our roles in a marriage, and possibly this being a clue?... really just to add to the discussion. That is all.

God uses all of us. And I can see how He is using you, I often look through your posts and find what you share to be edifying

In my post I was referring to leadership/pastorship of a church. But as I said, God uses all of us and does use women who are pastors today (Did someone say you're a pastor?)

My mother was (is) an evangelist and has done so much for the Lord. As I was growing up she was very active in helping the homeless, those suffering from addictions, broken families, and I remember we even had children staying with us for about a week at one point while she was helping a family. I remember also that there was someone about to commit suicide and he said one final prayer asking God to prove He is real by sending someone to his aid. Then my mother showed up as an answer to that prayer, and she witnessed to him, leading to him getting saved. Amazing

 

[trofimus]

First, be aware that this instruction is to A WOMAN! Not to "all women" or even "some women." Both the Greek and English are clear - Paul is writing about one woman, and not talking about a universal principle. PLUS - verse 11 is also about one woman.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness" 1 Tim. 2:11

So a woman - singular, is to learn quietly. Why was Paul talking in the singular? Because, he was obviously talking about ONE woman who was teaching heresy, or causing problems or both! One woman can do a lot of damage. But Paul felt she could be restored, because the instructions tell her to "learn quietly."

I am afraid it does not fit into the context.

1. If Paul was talking about one specific woman, he would use the definite article ("the"), in Greek "hé gyné".

2. If Paul was talking about one specific woman, he would not argue so generally - by Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve events apply to any woman and any man.

 

[Ariel82]

I am afraid it does not fit into the context.

1. If Paul was talking about one specific woman, he would use the definite article ("the"), in Greek "hé gyné".

2. If Paul was talking about one specific woman, he would not argue so generally - by Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve events apply to any woman and any man.

Still doesn't refute that Paul could be talking to husbands and wives and how the wife should submit to the husband and not yell at him during church services.

 

[Johnny_B]

"pastors" is generic in the plural. Not a proper noun, and especially not singular..Paul never addressed anyone as Pastor..In fact the word is only one time in the NT...it means one who sheperds, and not a title of recognition..They are lowly servants and recognized without announcement. The one man Pastor idea is the same as the Catholic Father concept, both are illegitimate in nature and are of men of renown..

Amen!!! It is the lording over that Jesus talks about in Matthew 20:25-27 “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave” And in 23:6-12 “They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It's always the other way around, the elders, deacons, prophets, evangelists and teachers serve or are under the pastor, when he is only one of the gifts given to the Church for editing and equipping the saints.

 

[trofimus]

Still doesn't refute that Paul could be talking to husbands and wives and how the wife should submit to the husband and not yell at him during church services.

I agree. This place in Timothy can be about wives & husbands. And probably is. However, I am not sure what you mean by yelling at him in the church' service. If it is about wife & husband, it can by applied everywhere...

There are other places that are about women in church, though.

 

[narrowispath]

Bible does not say woman cannot be a preacher. Regardless whether it is a woman or
a man, this person must accurately deliver the word of GOD. This is most important factor.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree. This place in Timothy can be about wives & husbands. And probably is. However, I am not sure what you mean by yelling at him in the church' service. If it is about wife & husband, it can by applied everywhere...

There are other places that are about women in church, though.

The other place folks like to quote is about women keeping silent in church and refers to Wives yelling questions at their husbands...Paul says ask them questions at home instead of disrupt the meetings.

Women spoke in church assemblies when they prophecies, but folks would deny that because it doesn't fit their doctrine.

 

[trofimus]

The other place folks like to quote is about women keeping silent in church and refers to Wives yelling questions at their husbands...Paul says ask them questions at home instead of disrupt the meetings.

Women spoke in church assemblies when they prophecies, but folks would deny that because it doesn't fit their doctrine.

Yes, but this is a different place in Scripture. And I think that this one is making a better case for the problem with the women's leadership of the church...

But if we say that the 1Tm 2:15 is about husband and wife, it has nothing to do with the church then and we must also say "B", i.e. that woman has to be quite at home, in such case.

 

[Ariel82]

Yes, but this is a different place in Scripture. And I think that this one is making a better case for the problem with the women's leadership of the church...

But if we say that the 1Tm 2:15 is about husband and wife, it has nothing to do with the church then and we must also say "B", i.e. that woman has to be quite at home, in such case.

Quiet and meek spirit is a good thing...but some people mistaken quiet as silent and meek as afraid.

I see them as qualities we should all strive for: to be still, pray and listen more than speak.

****
1 Peter 3:4 ►
New International Version
Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

New Living Translation
You should clothe yourselves instead with the beauty that comes from within, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is so precious to God.

English Standard Version
but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.

Berean Study Bible
but from the inner disposition of your heart, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in God's sight.

Berean Literal Bible
but the hidden man of the heart, in the imperishable of the gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth before God.

New American Standard Bible
but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

King James Bible
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

 

[Rockrz]

Bible does not say woman cannot be a preacher.

It's no problem for them to preach to other women and to kids...

 

[Angela53510]

Gosh Angela, maybe you misunderstood my post. I didn't claim that was a reason God does not want women as leaders. I simply brought it up as a question, as food for thought, basing it only on how He views our roles in a marriage, and possibly this being a clue?... really just to add to the discussion. That is all.

God uses all of us. And I can see how He is using you, I often look through your posts and find what you share to be edifying

In my post I was referring to leadership/pastorship of a church. But as I said, God uses all of us and does use women who are pastors today (Did someone say you're a pastor?)

My mother was (is) an evangelist and has done so much for the Lord. As I was growing up she was very active in helping the homeless, those suffering from addictions, broken families, and I remember we even had children staying with us for about a week at one point while she was helping a family. I remember also that there was someone about to commit suicide and he said one final prayer asking God to prove He is real by sending someone to his aid. Then my mother showed up as an answer to that prayer, and she witnessed to him, leading to him getting saved. Amazing

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. But I re-read the passage, and you were really putting forward a complimentarian viewpoint, in every line. I thought it was downright offensive to women today, most of whom MUST work, like I had to, to say they are neglecting being a good mother and wife. That is simply not what happens! I worked part time till my children were in school, and then full time. The result was that we never had to go into debt, because I had a good career and brought home enough money to make up the difference in what my husband made. My one DIL refuses to work, because she wants to be a full time mommy. But she is an lazy, spoiled brat! I kept the house, made the meals, did the shopping, did laundry and took the kids to all their activities, while I worked. My DIL just sits around on FB all day, orders in supper, and my son ends up doing the housework. He is often working 2 jobs, because she refuses to even take in a child to babysit. They have 2 empty rooms in their house they are renting out, and she has not found new renters. She is really taking advantage of this whole "role" nonsense. So, sometimes, the women that are out working are actually better wives and mothers, than the ones who are staying home. (Of course, some stay at home moms are incredible! Just to point out that there are many exceptions to the rule.)

And yes, I am a pastor, but I do not lead a church, because of my health issues. I do preach and teach in my church, and I am in a worship team where I play flute and sing. I was working as a chaplain, till my meds failed, and I had to stop. I'm looking and praying to see what God wants me to do to serve him. It seems like there are some conservative churches that obey the wrong KJV translation, and therefore are obsessed with the idea of "authority," based on one Scripture. And "roles" which doesn't appear in the Old or New Testaments. But, I am seeing a move towards using women for something besides setting up the potluck and taking care of the nursery and small children. But, we have a long way to go in the church.

Even when I was in seminary, the women always got the top marks in every subject, and all the awards. I think the reason is because when God calls you, you have to be very strong in yourself, but you also have to prove you belong there. The men don't need to prove themselves. I always find it funny that the Greek award has a woman's name under it every year! I also got that award. This is not to say I was smarter than any man there. Just that I probaby put in 10 times the effort studying! One day I hope it will be accepted to have women in seminary, and they can be serving God instead of working 10 times harder to prove God really did call them.

I know that God, at this point in time, probably doesn't call many women. But, perhaps I am wrong, and God calls many women, but they don't obey the call, because they are so convinced that only men can be pastors. I certainly did that the first time God called me. I hope that the church, instead of being a closed, old boys party, will start to recognize the gifts and callings of women. And that husbands will also recognize that call, and support their wives, and not feel that their manhood is threatened by a woman. My husband was on the fence, until I started doing chaplaincy. Then, he understood why I had to obey God, and that it really was a calling to help people, which I don't think I could have done without the training I got in Seminary, along with the models of godly men and women, who the light of Christ always shone through!

Women are certainly called and capable of being a pastor. There is no such Scripture that forbids them from being so. What a wonderful home you must have grown up that your mother was so involved in both evangelism and helping counsel the hurting and broken! You are very blessed!

 

[oldethennew]

PS. 19:14.
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in Thy sight,
O LORD, my Strength, and my Redeemer'.

WOW, where's the gender separation going-on here???