Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Well when I have a fight growing up with my brothers I would say "I love you but I don't like you very much right now.

Love is more than a feeling, it's an action.

Love requires that you want the best for another person, and hope that they find joy and happiness. When you like them also,you help them find that joy and happiness.

So I can love someone but I may not be ready to like them or be able to converse with them.especially if they are still hurting me with their words or actions.

Anyway it makes sense to me.

Also Jesus didn't answer everyone, but he still loves them.

 

[BillG]

Well when I have a fight growing up with my brothers I would say "I love you but I don't like you very much right now.

Love is more than a feeling, it's an action.

Love requires that you want the best for another person, and hope that they find joy and happiness. When you like them also,you help them find that joy and happiness.

So I can love someone but I may not be ready to like them or be able to converse with them.especially if they are still hurting me with their words or actions.

Anyway it makes sense to me.

Also Jesus didn't answer everyone, but he still loves them.

Love is not a feeling it's an act of your will.

God taught me that big time. When I got it wow what a release. The release was for me.

I then actually came to like and converse.

 

[BillG]

THOSE WHO GET JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW........WILL BE SEVERED FROM CHRIST.............................

i do not want this for anyone... atlas no i want to carry on playing good soccer with the lads in heaven....

You do realise that the pitch will be Hampden Park don't you?

 

[FranC]

Hey Fran.

I believe that none of us knows all things as ought to know it and your story about the priest saying Jesus is the door is a great example. Others that see the "other" aspects of the catholic belief system will reject everything and thus miss the fact that the priest said "Jesus is the gate".

Sometimes we Christians take what are descriptions of the life of Christ manifesting in and through us and then we can try to "dictate' His fruit and make it a requirement for on-going salvation in reference to living with Him for all eternity because we are joined as one spirit with Him in our inner man of the heart - the new creation in Christ.

Well, Jesus is the Savior - not ourselves. He supplies all the nutrients needed. In His grace faith is supplied.

To answer your question in brown above.

Obedience to the faith is what saves us for eternal life being brought to us - all because of Christ Himself. We can walk in the things of the life of Christ that is in us now by walking by the spirit and thus experience His life in us in this earth or walk by the flesh which brings destruction of some sort in this life.


The process for salvation as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord remains intact - no matter how much our stinking thinking gets screwed up because of the experiences we encounter in this life after we receive Christ.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

You use the terms:
Walking in the spirit .... I say, following God.
Walking in the flesh .... I say following satan.

Why?

Because in a way we ALL walk in the flesh. Every time we sin, we are"walking in the flesh".
Now Walking is an ongoing action, so by it I understand that what you mean is that we walk toward satan and serve him.

Our flesh will Always be present. We will never get rid of it until we have our glorified body. (which, of course, is after the resurrection). However, he "flesh" will disappear as soon as we die and we live in the spirit with God. Literally.

John 14:16
Yes. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would Always be with us. As long as we are in Christ and believe in Him. The Holy Spirit will not stay with a person that does not want Him. God will never force Himself on us I guess we'd get into eternal salvation here and this is off topic.

However, if you read just above John 14:16 it says
"If you love ME, you will obey what I command." This is Jesus speaking.

So what happens if we stop obeying???
If faith saves us and we stop having faith, are we still saved?

As far as the sealing... I've gone through this and am not going to again.
The sealing is by the Holy Spirit. If we have the Holy Spirit, we are sealed,
If we don't have the Holy Spirit, we are not sealed --- or we could become unsealed.

Sealing is in refeence to what Kings did back then. They sealed a notice. The contents became law.
THE LAW COULD BE CHANGED upon the desire of the King, even though it had previously been sealed.

We do have to understand the bible as it was written over 2,000 years ago. Not by how we want to understand it today.

As far as the heart... Yes. To the pure, everything is pure.

Ariel also said something I agree with... Think more about what God would want from you, not about flesh and sinning.

We are a new creation in Chris for as long as we WANT to be.

 

[JIMBO43]

It's never a waste of time to show love. But yeah i have to ignore some folks too because they make me mad and I don't want to speak out of anger.

I never said it was..... to ignor some one in love is also an act of love not unforgivness... but yeah nice try sister but no cigar....

 

[FranC]

He saved the people in Egypt.. Unconditionally.

He promised Abraham an inheritance (and his children) Unconditionally

He promised David a house (family) which would endure forever (through Christ) Unconditionally.

The only conditional promise God made was mosaic law. And we could not keep out part of the agreement, So God could not keep his (it was conditional) thats why the unconditional agreement of Grace is our only hope.

People want to go back to law (works) and reject grace, And yet proclaim how holy they are. when they do not realise how unrighteous they really are.. This is the issue and the danger of works theology.

Hi EG

The Mosaic Covenant was conditional.
Also the Edenic Covenant was conditional.

This is interesting, I've Always thought.

Both times, we failed.

The Edenic was the Agreement between God and Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit.
Adam was the lord of the land God had given him. Everything was his, he had dominion.

All he had to do was obey God and not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The blessing...... eternal life.
The curse ......... separation from God (Death)

He failed. As the Israelites failed at keeping the commandments even though they were sure they could.

 

[Ariel82]

I never said it was..... to ignor some one in love is also an act of love not unforgivness... but yeah nice try sister but no cigar....

Never said ignoring someone couldn't be an act of love. You might want to re-read my post if you got that impression.

 

[Ariel82]

I don't like this wording of "following Satan" because it may give the false impression that Satan equal to God. People don't have to follow Satan to disobey God.,they can make their own kingdoms and many other sins.

Following flesh is not the same, because Satan isn't as powerful as God and demonic influence is different from fleshly influence.

However that could be a totally different conversation.

 

[FranC]

Thanks for the agreement.

"Not by works what? That's all Jesus spoke about."

I agree works are part of Christs message. It is like saying love is just a nice emotion
you feel but changes nothing. Or as one pop song said

"What has love got to do with it, It is just a second hand emotion"

Quality of life matter, and how we communicate. I met many believers who like the idea
of people helping themselves but social action was only for those so inspired, you got what
you deserved. Some said that being like the world and believing in Christ was the way to
show it is not a religion but a relationship. In a cultural sense this made sense, but not in
a moral and loving perspective sense.

Some here manage to confuse the two, and end up polarising around a group who agree and
the others. They often miss the fact they disagree with each other on quite a few fundamental
positions, but this is often secondary to the primary objective, of de-legalising the church. lol

Now if this was identification of sin in the heart, followed by repentance of ones sins and faith
in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, but often it is something different.

Some pretty ugly stuff in your paragraph no. 5.
God is love. We have to spread that love around.
What is the Kingdom about anyway???
Jesus said the Kingdom is here but you have to be born from above to see it.

You have to see to believe...

In Christianity,

You have to believe to see...

So if we want to be a member of the Kingdom then we have to follow Jesus' lead.
Jesus told us exactly what we had TO BE and TO DO.

WE are the way God works here on this earth.
It's an easy concept, but "works" has gotten a bad rap.
The early Christians right after Jesus died believed ONLY in works!
Today, we have trouble undersanding each other because the thought annoys some so much.
I don't really understand why...

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't like this wording of "following Satan" because it may give the false impression that Satan equal to God. People don't have to follow Satan to disobey God.,they can make their own kingdoms and many other sins.

Following flesh is not the same, because Satan isn't as powerful as God and demonic influence is different from fleshly influence.

However that could be a totally different conversation.

Personally I like to use terms that the scriptures use but sometimes the meaning of them can be different depending on our church upbringing and depending on the traditions we were taught. Religious teachings can be the toughest stronghold of the mind.

The flesh is a Greek word - sarx. This is the term used by Paul in his writings.

 

[JIMBO43]

Alright bro, let's see if I can make any sense with my response...lol, to start with, I know I don't have all the answers and I have more questions that I just wait for God to answer, but I will share with you what God has taught me so far.

thats funny coz you seem to have a lot of answers for me..

we can look at the scriptures but I believe it will be different because the Bible says it will be and what Revelation 21 says about the New Heaven and New Earth. That God will wipe away our years.

What you believe is what you believe its that simple...

soul and spirit are different. We have the same spirit but not the same soul...it's confusing because in Hebrew the word for the "inner most being" is translated "breath of life or soul" but in Greek the "inner most being or breath of life is translated "spirit" and the mind or the flesh is translated "soul or mind".

i cant se sould being flesh can you.. ?.

So when we look at the Bible verses we have to figure out what is really meant.

.we dont have to we can give it God..

I can get the Greek and Hebrew words and Bible verses if you like. I am still trying to figure out how to explain it all coherently.

theres no need my mind is set we cieve salvation of our souls continuosly...

I wish it were like that, but what good is a castle of you leave the drawbridge down?.

verry good it means you are brave ,,,,,my door is always open .

Or how do you keep robbers out if you kids leave the window open with a rope ladder to allow them to sneak off at night?.

.buy an cctv face reconission system and a german sheperd..lol

When we sin we let down the drawbridge and leave a rope ladder to our minds that allows the enemy to torment us,until we turn back to God and repent of our sins and ask for his mercy and grace to rescue us again.

I know what you mean because we leave down doesnt mean we should pull it back up for everyon we meeet on the net...You cant get physically attacked here can you..?

Some people think God HAS to HELP them,but he doesn't. He does because of love, not duty or cuz he "owes" us anything.

you could argue that sometimes God is forced to intervene tho..

I believe the Holy Spirit is there but when we tell and curse, we can't hear Him speak.

Maybe which is why we need daily salvation...

very true. We need to get to know others and have them know we love them or its just clanging cymbals. Just like we allow others to know us and love us too. Personally I listen to a rebuke from someone I know respects and loves me more than from a stranger.

would you still want to know me if dont believe in your doctrins.. ? like some here have said i am not a brother if im not believing grace alone saves you...

because it bothers God to see people lost and enslaved. Jesus came to set the captives free.

He most certainly did but he does worn that the pigs could come back..

Satan loves lies and has deceived many.

yup hes a stinking low life..

well I don't believe I have it all worked out. I know just enough to live my life for God's glory, but there is much I know that I don't know the answers to,

Your answers tho are only what you have learned meaning many more have learned diffrently than you..

amen, I pray that we all come to this place of wisdom.

me to sis..

sounds like God's love working through you to me. Eventually she will see that you don't just preach your faith, you live it. That's how hearts and minds are changed, when we follow Jesus in not just words but heart and seed. Maybe she will ask for your testimony one day and you can tell her more about who Jesus really is and how He can save HER too. However it's in God's timing, not ours.

maybe lol who know

yeah but even then God still loves them,even when they rebel and He draws them towards himself even when we grieve.

yup he does as he must do to resue sinners...

I always thought that verse was about judgement and forgiveness. God forgive you and you should forgive others. If instead you insist on"judging" or condemning them,they God will "give the same measure" to you.

you have your interpratation i have mine sis... they could be both right ...

Like you say "he should be cursed and his kids die because of the harm he did me" then God may decide to let that curse happen to YOU instead because it is easy to find sins folks are guilty of.

i dont see it being punished for bad sin absolutely nowy would scripture be so sneaky that way...

I hate sin, deception and lies. I don't hate people. Only way I have found for taking the tongue is praying. Sometimes we all need reminders and that is what my brothers and sisters do.

Yeah but i tell you there is also a time for peace and war..

If I cross the line or if someone gets under my skin, one of them gently rebukes me and reminds me that I am God's ambassador and need to represent HIM and not myself or my hurt pride.

well yeah i suppose if its not said in a belittleing way..

sounds like fun. A CC world gathering day? Where and when?

God already knows we are His. We do good works to show the world that God loves them still.

dunno yet...

Honor and obey aren't what I consider good works. They are just a part of who i am as a new creation, born again child of God.

Good works to me means acts of love.

They can be acts of love.. but to obey is your own will...has to be or obey should be typed control..

For example, you listening to the lady, hugging a crying child, giving clothes to flood victims, taking in orphans,feeding the homeless, fellowshiping and worshipping with fellow believers, etc.

thats no diffrent to times of the old t... mothers where still mothers and fathers fathers....

Actions that reveal God's love to the world, that is my definition of a good work.

THAT is still a definitions of Good works.. and no diffrent to a definition of revealing that God gives back what you give.. and gives to you anyway too..

Dont mistake me as a works salvationist.. god bless

 

[PeterJens]

Lol another greatly inspired moment haha.... seariously tho i do wish to engage with you now seeing as there is some sought of even ground...

Do you believe you can be saved... then unsaved.... then saved again..

We all have a walk. Either we are walking with the Lord or not. Saved or unsaved
does not make sense to me. Walking in life or feeling at a loss makes more sense.
At the time we meet the Lord it will become plain.

The language of saved not saved is not biblical. Walking in love or walking in desires,
Is the Spirit or the flesh. If we walk in the flesh this leads to death.
But listening to some just hay or stubble, nothing too serious. Odd how scripture is
much stronger than the preachers. Which should we believe?

It strikes me some have no fear to overthrow Gods word, or even allow open questions.

 

[FranC]

Christians do not have sin in their hearts. This is where the true gospel is getting messed up by the religion of Christianity.

God gave us new hearts - this is our true identity. We will have the flesh with us until we die and go to be with the Lord. In the flesh is the power or law of sin and that has a "voice". The flesh is not the real us - we are responsible with what we do in our bodies.

When we die and go to be present with the Lord - the flesh will not go with us. Eventually we do get a new incorruptible body without sin in it but until then - if you go looking for sin - it's be a full time job and it's a deception from the enemy..

If any man be in Christ , he is a new creation - Behold - which means to look, to see, to perceive - all things are new.

Not understanding our true identity in Christ and thinking we have sin in our hearts creates a works-based religion of D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness because we think we need to get these things out of our heart.

This belief system will nullify the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ from operating in our lives like it was meant to for us to live in this present world.

Paul says "Walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires."

Do you understand THE FLESH to be the same thing as the SIN NATURE?

IOW, our heart if pure. God said He would give us a new heart. Jeremiah 31. Ezekiel 36:26

God resides in our heart and we want to do His will.
But we still have a sin nature. It's put under submission, but it is still present.
If it were not, we'd never sin.

I suppose that you call this the flesh.

 

[FranC]

We still have spiritual strongholds that lead to sin in our minds that need to be torn down G777.

Hi Ariel
What is a spiritual stronghold?

 

[JIMBO43]

I don't like this wording of "following Satan" because it may give the false impression that Satan equal to God. People don't have to follow Satan to disobey God.,they can make their own kingdoms and many other sins.

Following flesh is not the same, because Satan isn't as powerful as God and demonic influence is different from fleshly influence.

However that could be a totally different conversation.

Depend on how you interprtate it ... you could be following him unknowingly ie letting your heart rule your head

 

[PeterJens]

Hey PJ,

Can your first verse not be reciprocated along with your second paragraph?

I commend your 3rd paragraph line one.
With regard to line two I think you fall foul of your two first paragraphs because you say you will never affect them but given all your posts you are trying to affect them based on everything that you feel the Holy Spirit has given you.

That being the case where do you go? You go back to your holding place.

The same is for all of us.

Enjoy your house group and may Jesus bless you all as you meet.

I am trying to compare listening too much to an intention which does not help
and is only there to distract, with the great things God does in us.

How do we connect? By knowing the real situations and person within.
Some are so closed off you will never hear needs. The art of caring and listening,
not bringing answers but sharing time with another, making something special.
People matter, but the world can sometimes value for what you can give rather than
just being and getting to know shared realities. There was a time when everyone was
known, now most are strangers in a strange land.

 

[FranC]

The interesting thing with a lot of people who have backsliden, is they often still believe
in Christ and some come back to faith. The emotional reasons why they walk away seem
complicated.

Hebrews seems to suggest with a real break with God, there is no way back.
I think this is more of warning as to what happens to peoples hearts rather than a statement
if you come to the Lord and repent He will not open up the door.

What I wonder at is why this issue bothers you so? Is staying in love so hard, knowing love
flowing in your heart day after day?

Sin discourages our hearts. It takes away our faith and gives us an independant view of
life where that which used to inspire us becomes dead, and the world starts to look good.
Evil unrepented of is rebellion. How can we believe God will listen to us, when we stand
in rebellion? King David when confronted realised his state and repented. The Lord is
gracious, yet people are often so hard in their judgements.

When sin is a constant focus, where are our relationships or self understanding?
Do we care so little for others, we sin against them constantly?

You're referring to Hebrews 6:4.
I'd have to agree with you. It's not saying that if they come back God will not open up the door.
God can forgive all sin. If you leave Him and come back, He will Always forgive you and you can start over.

Hebrews is saying that they're turning their backs on the gospel, on God, on His work, on his goodness, and on the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that's the one sin that is not pardonable.

However, we cannot make any doctrine based on one verse. IF a person denies God, but then repents and comes back to Him, He will Always welcome them with open arms.

The Prodigal Son is a great example of this.
He's with the Father.
He Leaves.
He comes back to a father who Waits for him with open arms.

 

[saltwn]

John 14:6 teaches us:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If a good work could get me to heaven, Jesus need not have sacrificed himself for me.
However we often miss the commandment set out in James 1:27 which says:

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.


So looks like we are told how to be saved AND how to act as Christians on earth.

 

[Ariel82]

Depend on how you interprtate it ... you could be following him unknowingly ie letting your heart rule your head

But my heart has been made clean by God, so that doesn't work.

More like let past experience and the world's "wisdom" distract from following God fully.

 

[FranC]

Blow me down. g7 is saying as believers we are born again with a pure heart,
without lusts of the flesh.

So the pornography problem with believers is actually because they are not believers.

That mucks up ones view of faith and transformation.

I notice how the argument goes from we are terrible sinners who can never attain to
purity of heart to we have pure hearts from day 1.

When you anchor belief in the word and ones experience, you come close to what is truth.
It stops this massive flipping of arguments depending on the audience. It is why I call this
type of approach a mirage.

Hey PJ

This is a difficult concept to nail down.

Regarding the heart being pure,I mean. It's pure from day 1, but we keep on sinning. We are pure in the eyes of God.

Do you like this analogy?


Christianity is the only religion in the world where a person could go to hell for stealing a pen,
but end up in heaven after commiting murder.

If you can explain why, you don't have to worry about the heart being pure or not.

The person who stole the pen and is not a Christian cannot go to heaven.
The person who commited murder but repents and comes to a saving knowledge of God, will be saved.