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Wait, I thought people could free will themselves into heaven? You're totally misrepresenting Horton here. He is distinguishing between providence and saving grace. He isn't arguing the ability to choose right and wrong, or, IOW for your false free will gospel.
BTW our kids know Michael Horton personally, and our daughter is almost your age. I listen to his podcasts and have some of his books given to us through them, and you're way off base in your post concerning what he stated.
You've misrepresented Michael Horton.
BTW our kids know Michael Horton personally, and our daughter is almost your age. I listen to his podcasts and have some of his books given to us through them, and you're way off base in your post concerning what he stated.
You've misrepresented Michael Horton.
The strawman argument imo is Calvins. Are you saying now that he DID NOT teach that God predestined certain men to be saved from the beginning, and that Christ ONLY DIED for those men that God predestined? If so, then you have completely changed what Calvin taught. There is a plethora of writings to show what Calvin actually taught.
AND..........If God only predestined CERTAIN people to salvation.......then, by simple logical deduction, the rest of mankind is doomed to eternal damnation. To think different goes against what Calvin taught. Especially when you get into the idea that Christ did not die for the sins of ALL MANKIND, but only for those God predestined.
Now, I said in my first comment, that some have begun to retool Calvins teachings to try and make some of it a better fit with Scripture......kinda Calvin-lite I suppose.......but even they fall short of Scripture.
The info may not help you, if you believe in Calvin's teachings, but I posted it for Kaylagrl's consideration. It may or may not help her........I certainly did not expect those who believe in Calvin's teachings to rejoice when they read the post.
Again:
The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them. Jesus died for all peoples' sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
The problem with this teaching is John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 as two examples. There are others as well, but these two will serve to show the flaw in Calvin's teachings.
The other problem is when Calvin's followers talk about it, they use the Scripture Romans 8:29.........BUT........they leave out the first part of that Scripture!
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
They leave out........For whom he did foreknow............and when this is included, as it should be, it completely changes the meaning of the rest of the Scripture because it clearly reveals God's "foreknowing" as His basis for choosing people to be the firstborn.......foreknowing is way different than predestination......
anyway........this argument, as with others, will never be resolved on this earth, but with the return of Christ all will be known and resolved!
The Five Points of Calvinism
There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism. Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500's at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation.The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation. It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them. Jesus died for all peoples' sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.
The Five Points of Calvinism, TULIP
The problem with this teaching is John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4 as two examples. There are others as well, but these two will serve to show the flaw in Calvin's teachings.
The other problem is when Calvin's followers talk about it, they use the Scripture Romans 8:29.........BUT........they leave out the first part of that Scripture!
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
They leave out........For whom he did foreknow............and when this is included, as it should be, it completely changes the meaning of the rest of the Scripture because it clearly reveals God's "foreknowing" as His basis for choosing people to be the firstborn.......foreknowing is way different than predestination......
anyway........this argument, as with others, will never be resolved on this earth, but with the return of Christ all will be known and resolved!
K
Ok folks,of both sides,we're headed for a free for all again. Lets knock it down a notch please.The arguing can happen in other threads. Please respect what I said in my OP. If you cannot discuss without taking it personally please go to the other knock em down drag em out threads. I was so happy this thread was going so well and I come back to the same old thing. I dont care who started it,just lets calm down.Thank you.
I am trying my best.........
But folks are passionate in their beliefs, so things can get "heated."
Anyway, I tried to give you some info to consider.......and others will give you some info to consider, and I hope it helps....but, if it all fails, I suppose you will have to revert to reading Scripture, praying, and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you to His Truth............
But folks are passionate in their beliefs, so things can get "heated."
Anyway, I tried to give you some info to consider.......and others will give you some info to consider, and I hope it helps....but, if it all fails, I suppose you will have to revert to reading Scripture, praying, and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you to His Truth............
A
Are We Born Free | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
The guy's name has been thrown around.
I don't believe that any good can be done without the grace and power of God, but we do have a CC member who does preach against Original sin so it's good to figure out why folks get labeled this.
The guy's name has been thrown around.
I don't believe that any good can be done without the grace and power of God, but we do have a CC member who does preach against Original sin so it's good to figure out why folks get labeled this.
Kaylagri: I believe you are Pentecostal, so I will give you a couple of sites to check out, and maybe they will give you some help in all of this. As well, if I post any additional comments here, I will only address them to you to keep from engaging in disputations............
Beware of Calvinism - Pentecostal Apologetics
Side By Side Comparison Lens - Patheos
Beware of Calvinism - Pentecostal Apologetics
Side By Side Comparison Lens - Patheos
i was wonder, how do you respond to your own post. both parts of your first question are a form of what we would class as being a religion. both in this case a form or sect claiming to hold to christian religions or christian teachings. . when both of these are saved by a saviour. yet who formed these religions seem to be the fruit of the answer you seek. yet have nothing to do with a belief system that has faith in a personal saviour.
K
Hit up google again...
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Pelagius was a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s A.D. Pelagius taught that human beings were born innocent, without the stain of original or inherited sin. He believed that God created every human soul directly and therefore every human soul was originally free from sin. Pelagius believed that Adam's sin did not affect future generations of humanity. This view became known as Pelagianism.[/FONT]
Ok,I do not believe we are born in innocent.The Bible says we are born in sin,shapen in inequity. And I do believe Adams sin affected the following generations. So no,I could not be called Pelagan. Preacher this is in answer to your comment. Another new word learned.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Pelagius was a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s A.D. Pelagius taught that human beings were born innocent, without the stain of original or inherited sin. He believed that God created every human soul directly and therefore every human soul was originally free from sin. Pelagius believed that Adam's sin did not affect future generations of humanity. This view became known as Pelagianism.[/FONT]
Ok,I do not believe we are born in innocent.The Bible says we are born in sin,shapen in inequity. And I do believe Adams sin affected the following generations. So no,I could not be called Pelagan. Preacher this is in answer to your comment. Another new word learned.
A
Yeah Arminius preached against Pelagius too.
Made a thread so as not to derail yours.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152284-what-does-arminius-actually-teach.html
Made a thread so as not to derail yours.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152284-what-does-arminius-actually-teach.html