Calvinists,Im Asking...

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ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Hey I don't make the labels, I am just telling you what is being preached.

Like I said i didn't see much difference, but folks insist that there is a difference.

There probably is from various preachers, but I have been studying John Wesley's teachings and just started on Arminius. If I find a sermon where they preach that God gives everyone justifying grace, I will tell you.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 1 - Salvation By Faith

The above is a sermon about Salvation by faith alone. It would fit into the "reformed" label of you didnt know who preached it.

Just joined this thread to see what the Calvinist believe that is so different.
You can't believe in free will though if your definition of graces is what you believe. You basically stated the reformed belief. 1. Common grace. 2. Saving Grace. 3. Sanctification.

If that is what you believe, we are on the same page.

However, your view conflicts with anyone who believes in free will (as in no bondage of the will). Most free will teachers teach that everyone gets a chance at justification and this is an attack on the effectiveness of the cross since it will mostly fail and the Gospel won't be received. We believe the cross is wholly effective and God's purpose of salvation is complete and perfect.

The conclusion to everyone gets a chance at justification and that God's gift was to all that all may have a choice in the matter is Pelagianism, or at least semi-Pelagianism. Again, it makes the cross ineffective and is an attack on the character of God IMO.

I am about to sleep, but I am saving the sermon and will give it a listen tomorrow.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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do the believe in the same jesus christ.

and i will rest there,




becuse it must be to hard to follow or read acts 2 and act 10 and acts 15 in context to walking in faith, learning to hear the holy spirit talk to you at a personal live without ducking or hiding your sin from god. etc

2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death Romans 8: Life in the Spirit

that means in simple term ,why believer are free to pray and be in the pressence of god in prayer or in church as sons and daughters with a care in the world of sin or deeds , because you were save by a saviour, not by deed s or action that we have done etc.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Have no clue. Folks told me Wesley taught free will.

Most of his sermons seem to be calling Christians out to live holy lives and know that faith alone saves and not works.

Last one I just read he called himself reformed and was having at it with works salvationist.

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 134 - True Christianity

Let me, however, be as short as may be upon this head; and I will instance only in two or three men of renown, who have endeavoured to sap the very foundation of our Church, by attacking its fundamental, and, indeed, the fundamental doctrine of all Reformed Churches; viz., justification by faith alone.
 
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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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According to free will believers, when does regeneration take place? And does God not give everyone a faith to be saved by? If he does, was the cross ineffective? Partially effective? Jesus says all that are drawn by the Father WILL come to him. Just wondering how free will fits in here.

I wasn't accusing, I was asking for an explanation.
How it all works we can't comprehend because we are human and the spiritual things are spiritually disserend. I believe in free will because love does not exist when it is forced. thats a robot. When we fall in love with God we will (by choice) be drawn to Him and want to obey Him. As we spend time with Him we are transformed by His grace into His image. (Regeneration).

All are lost but because of the cross we are all offered a chance or many chances to be saved and I'm glad God will judge us. We are judged according to what we did with the faith we were all given.
God will intervine in ways like using moses to bring Israel out of Egypt. But He will also stand back and let mankind choose their own path. Like sodom or before the flood.
If we tell people about Gods love some will find it irresistible and other may reject it. It all depends on each persons experience.
Why didn't God force eve to not sin because He stood back and let her choose.
Why do some of us choose to love God and some choose not to?
Well thats what I'm going to ask God when i can. I'm sure God can explan things in a just and fair way without saying i forced that petson and didn't give that person a chance.
And don't think i have no respect for the sovereignty of God. I know i am nothing without Him. And i have no right to question His actions, but i know that He wants to reveal His love to me because He has nothing to hide.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I found the sermon that cause the debate..it's called "free grace"

Still think it's about Prevenient grace and not justifying grace but can see where folks could not see the distinction.

. If you ask, "Why then are not all men saved" the whole law and the testimony answer, First, Not because of any decree of God; not because it is his pleasure they should die; for, As I live, saith the Lord God," I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth." (Ezek. 18:3, 32.) Whatever be the cause of their perishing, it cannot be his will, if the oracles of God are true; for they declare, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" (2 Pet. 3:9;) "He willeth that all men should be saved." And they, Secondly, declare what is the cause why all men are not saved, namely, that they will not be saved: So our Lord expressly, "Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life." (John 5:40.) "The power of the Lord is present to heal" them, but they will not be healed. "They reject the counsel," the merciful counsel, "of God against themselves," as did their stiff-necked forefathers. And therefore are they without excuse; because God would save them, but they will not be saved: This is the condemnation, "How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37.)

*****

"I will set before the sons of men 'life and death, blessing cursing.' And the soul that chooseth life shall live, as the soul that chooseth death shall die." This decree whereby "whom God did foreknow, he did predestinate," was indeed from everlasting; this, whereby all who suffer Christ to make them alive are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," now standeth fast, even as the moon, and as the faithful witnesses in heaven; and when heaven and earth shall pass away, yet this shall not pass away; for it is as unchangeable and eternal as is the being of God that gave it.
The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 128 - Free Grace
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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Reformed Justification by Philip Graham Rykan, he took over the 10th Presbyterian Church when James M. Boice died.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Have no clue. Folks told me Wesley taught free will.
I read The Journal of John Wesley (by John Wesley) and he was a very clear Arminian.

How he works with our will was what I did not like in the book.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
why...................

is it the same jesus a christian believes in etc

Because their view of certain things is different from mine and I want to know how they see things.Its important to know others views.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
Thank you for whoever gave me the rep. :)
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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How it all works we can't comprehend because we are human and the spiritual things are spiritually disserend. I believe in free will because love does not exist when it is forced. thats a robot. When we fall in love with God we will (by choice) be drawn to Him and want to obey Him. As we spend time with Him we are transformed by His grace into His image. (Regeneration).
It's actually quite easy to understand for someone who isn't trapped in a carnal belief of who God is. You say that God draws all people who choose to believe. Let's see what Jesus says about that:

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

So... is Jesus lying? By the way, it helps to pay attention to what others have said before making assertions such as "robots" and "forces". Your idea of love and understanding of God is carnal. The act of drawing is not dependent upon human will. It's God that draws. Let's look at what Jesus said just a few verses earlier:

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Looks to me like Jesus is talking about limited atonement, irresistible grace, unconditional election, and perseverance of the saints.

But, you think that man of his own volition chooses to love God, right? What else does the bible say about that?

4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This passage is saying that anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of God in them are carnally minded and cannot please God and cannot submit to his law. It would please God that one would turn from their sins and believe right? How is that possible without God first bringing that person to spiritual life? Well, according to Jesus, and other authors of the NT, it isn't.

All are lost but because of the cross we are all offered a chance or many chances to be saved and I'm glad God will judge us. We are judged according to what we did with the faith we were all given.
If all were given faith, then all would believe.

God will intervine in ways like using moses to bring Israel out of Egypt. But He will also stand back and let mankind choose their own path. Like sodom or before the flood.
And scripture teaches that the lost man will always choose the way of Sodom unless God brings them to spiritual life, gives them a new heart, and renews their mind. The act of saving is on God, not man.

If we tell people about Gods love some will find it irresistible and other may reject it. It all depends on each persons experience.
No. This would assume that someone is better than someone else and had it within themselves to do something good while the other person did something bad.

Why didn't God force eve to not sin because He stood back and let her choose.
Why do some of us choose to love God and some choose not to?
Well thats what I'm going to ask God when i can. I'm sure God can explan things in a just and fair way without saying i forced that petson and didn't give that person a chance.
And don't think i have no respect for the sovereignty of God. I know i am nothing without Him. And i have no right to question His actions, but i know that He wants to reveal His love to me because He has nothing to hide.
God doesn't force anyone to sin. We aren't robots as you wrongfully assume reformed believers believe. Again, reading what everyone has said before making these kind of assertions would be great. I know it's a lot to ask since everyone keeps doing it anyway, but come on.

You can ask God now and find the answer. Some believe and others don't because God chose them. Jesus said so. Reject it or embrace it, up to you.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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If we tell people about Gods love some will find it irresistible and other may reject it. It all depends on each persons experience.
No. This would assume that someone is better than someone else and had it within themselves to do something good while the other person did something bad.
Hi boys... its both! (lol, again)

BTW I do not think that Bible teaches we are all equally evil. Some psychopat is much more evil than somebody from a good family. Our sins are not equal. And I do not think that it contradicts that we all are sinners.

But how do you make yourself to be from such a background that it will make you accept Christ? Your will? No. God's order of the Universe.
 
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Dec 28, 2016
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How it all works we can't comprehend because we are human and the spiritual things are spiritually disserend. I believe in free will because love does not exist when it is forced. thats a robot. When we fall in love with God we will (by choice) be drawn to Him and want to obey Him. As we spend time with Him we are transformed by His grace into His image. (Regeneration).
God waits for people to come to Him out of their genuine love and because of your love for God you came to Him and chose Him to save you? Well, you must have been a wonderful specimen compared to others. Is it Pars Hominis Gloria, Soli Hominis Gloria, Pars Deo Gloria, or Soli Deo Gloria? I'm shooting for the latter.

Forced love is God, by extending grace via foreknowledge, setting us apart by the Spirit, causing us to become obedient to Christ, unto the sprinkling of His blood, (1 Peter 1:1ff) and to causing them to be born again? Praise be to God for that operation of grace upon our souls that was necessary or we would be damned.

Guess what friend, that is the only way salvation takes place. Perhaps the traditional clichè's of "robot" and "forced love" need to be thrown out in light of Scripture?
 
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ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Hi boys... its both! (lol, again)

BTW I do not think that Bible teaches we are all equally evil. Some psychopat is much more evil than somebody from a good family. Our sins are not equal. And I do not think that it contradicts that we all are sinners.

But how do you make yourself to be from such a background that it will make you accept Christ? Your will? No. God's order of the Universe.
All are guilty before God though. The only reason we don't all kill each other immediately is because of common grace. God gives grace to some, hardens others. You seem to be talking about providence in the sense that God has micromanaged everything to turn out how it has. This is Molinism and isn't taught by scripture. But even this belief leaves everyone with the same dilemma, that is, why would God providentially make it some some would be saved and not all? Could he not as well made things so all would believe? God is bigger than that and could have well done that had he chosen to. Molinism is a philosophical construct with no real biblical support.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
More theological terms...does it ever stop?

Molinism | Theopedia

Proposed biblical evidence for Middle Knowledge
Exodus 13:17
1 Samuel 23:8-14
Jeremiah 23: 21-22
Matthew 11:21-24
1 Corinthians 2:8
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
More theological terms...does it ever stop?

Molinism | Theopedia

Proposed biblical evidence for Middle Knowledge
Exodus 13:17
1 Samuel 23:8-14
Jeremiah 23: 21-22
Matthew 11:21-24
1 Corinthians 2:8
A few what ifs posed by God doesn't validate the Molinist position IMO. Also, middle knowledge creates a paradox in relation to the decree involved in creation.

And, yeah I agree, a lot of terms, but necessary to define and understand.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Can you explain the paradox you believe is created by the concept of "middle knowledge"?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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All are guilty before God though. The only reason we don't all kill each other immediately is because of common grace. God gives grace to some, hardens others. You seem to be talking about providence in the sense that God has micromanaged everything to turn out how it has. This is Molinism and isn't taught by scripture. But even this belief leaves everyone with the same dilemma, that is, why would God providentially make it some some would be saved and not all? Could he not as well made things so all would believe? God is bigger than that and could have well done that had he chosen to. Molinism is a philosophical construct with no real biblical support.
Yeah, people call me "a molinist" quite frequently :D But I am not (I am not sure why, though)
 
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