Not By Works
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If God did not give a gift because He knew a person would not accept it...
GOD IS INFLUENCING TIME.
He is changing history.
What you say cannot be true and the thinking is not correct and lopsided.
God does not change the future or time or circumstances, he only KNOWS what will happen.
If the person believed, he had the gift of salvation... at the time that he no longer believes THAT is when he loses salvation.
GOD DOES NOT WITHOLD ANYTHING due to His knowledge.
You're right PJ.
You're talking about sins of OMMISSION.
Bill and I were talking about something different...
Is NOT SINNING a work?
I guess in a way it could be said that it is.
If I'm NOT MEAN to my neighbor, I guess that could be called a work.
never thought of this before.
I ususally think of works in the positive...
You're talking about sins of OMMISSION.
Bill and I were talking about something different...
Is NOT SINNING a work?
I guess in a way it could be said that it is.
If I'm NOT MEAN to my neighbor, I guess that could be called a work.
never thought of this before.
I ususally think of works in the positive...
Its interesting to think about.
Who did Jesus primarily come to?
Matthew 15:23-28
But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Thats not to say salvation was for Israel only as we can see in his response to the Gentile woman above.
Romans 9-11 Paul talks about Israel.
We find in chapter 11
Romans 11:1-6
Chapter 11
Israel's Rejection Not Total
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Who did Jesus primarily come to?
Matthew 15:23-28
But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Thats not to say salvation was for Israel only as we can see in his response to the Gentile woman above.
Romans 9-11 Paul talks about Israel.
We find in chapter 11
Romans 11:1-6
Chapter 11
Israel's Rejection Not Total
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
You see this covenant is all dependent on Israel not forsaking God. His promises are certain. He will not leave or forsake them. But what is clear is that covenant has two sides. The part Israel brings, and the part God brings. Should Israel BREAK COVENANT, then God can forsake them.
Evidence below:
Deuteronomy 31v8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”
We have new testament scriptures saying the same thing to the church Hebrews 13v5 for example.
HOWEVER...
In the same chapter of Deuteronomy we see the following:
Deuteronomy 31 v16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.
You see, what the flaky OSAS doctrine fails to grasp, and the flaky flakes that these false teacher hold onto is a TOTAL and UNCONDITIONAL rule that God will never leave of forsake them. The Israelites may have thought in the exactly the same way. But yet we see a conditional covenant in place for Israel of old. ---- And they then FORSOOK God (verse 16). The covenant was BROKEN according to God.
In the same way we have a new covenant in Christ. To all those who BELIEVE in Christ. Yet to Believe is to Love Christ. To Love Christ is to Obey Christ. If the church breaks covenant with God, and refuses to repent, then the covenant is broken.
Evidence below:
Deuteronomy 31v8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”
We have new testament scriptures saying the same thing to the church Hebrews 13v5 for example.
HOWEVER...
In the same chapter of Deuteronomy we see the following:
Deuteronomy 31 v16-18
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.
You see, what the flaky OSAS doctrine fails to grasp, and the flaky flakes that these false teacher hold onto is a TOTAL and UNCONDITIONAL rule that God will never leave of forsake them. The Israelites may have thought in the exactly the same way. But yet we see a conditional covenant in place for Israel of old. ---- And they then FORSOOK God (verse 16). The covenant was BROKEN according to God.
In the same way we have a new covenant in Christ. To all those who BELIEVE in Christ. Yet to Believe is to Love Christ. To Love Christ is to Obey Christ. If the church breaks covenant with God, and refuses to repent, then the covenant is broken.
Again EG,
God knows what will happen,
He does not ACT UPON IT, This is theologically incorrect.
A big question is:
BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE,
DOES THIS CHANGE THE FUTURE?
And that's just KNOWING the future...
Go talk to these theologians about ACTING on what He knows!!
See what I mean. I don't know where you got this idea, but I've never heard it and it can't be right.
God knows what will happen,
He does not ACT UPON IT, This is theologically incorrect.
A big question is:
BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE,
DOES THIS CHANGE THE FUTURE?
And that's just KNOWING the future...
Go talk to these theologians about ACTING on what He knows!!
See what I mean. I don't know where you got this idea, but I've never heard it and it can't be right.
I agree with Chris.
God will not force you into heaven.
You have to WANT to go there till the very end.
Could you explain 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
Someone escapes the defilement of the world by the knowledge of the Lord ...... They are saved
THEN they are AGAIN entangled in them and are overcome .............................They are lost again
God will not force you into heaven.
You have to WANT to go there till the very end.
Could you explain 2 Peter 2:20-22 ?
Someone escapes the defilement of the world by the knowledge of the Lord ...... They are saved
THEN they are AGAIN entangled in them and are overcome .............................They are lost again
Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.
Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strong's #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strong's #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.
Corruption (Strong's #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.
Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.
Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).
*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.
Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strong's #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strong's #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.
Corruption (Strong's #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.
Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.
Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).
*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.
Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.