Calvinists,Im Asking...

[Depleted]

She was conflating the two.

She was quoting GotQuestions. (And, I'm pretty sure GotQuestions is 4-point Calvinism. lol)

 

[kaylagrl]

I think you're getting caught up in the timeline with your understanding of irresistible grace. You're thinking God's grace has always been, and yet, until we are saved, we resisted.

Right! Agreed.

BUT that's not the time of irresistible grace. The time for irresistible is after regeneration. After we are born as new creatures in the Lord. After he redeemed us. After all that, the light goes on. Actually, the light floods our darkness.

Old us would just squirm into a darker hole. Irresistible grace makes new us come running out into the light with full wonderment, enjoyment, enthusiasm, desire all for that Light! That is the irresistible moment, not before that.

Ah ok I think I get what your saying.Would that be the same as sanctification?

 

[Depleted]

IOW they are god. God must bow to their ideologies as they put demands upon His person as to what He can do that they will accept as "fair". God is on trial, they are the judge, jury and prosecution.

And yet, you are bound and determined to be the judge, jury, and executor, not God. And it is all based on what you believe, not God.

What's the difference other than "they" aren't quite as sure as you are that this has anything to do with God actually saving.

 

[kaylagrl]

And all lions can eat wheat. So we are all able.

As for choosing love?

I met this super cute guy in church before Christmas. Super! Cute!

We became friends. I wanted to date him, but friends was good. Super. Cute. And now with a personality that equaled his looks. (Super cute too. lol)

Finally, we went on a date on February 28th. At the end of the date, he told me his purpose for dating. He was the kind of guy who needed to be married. And then he spent two hours telling me his life story. (Divorce and two kids was in there too.)

We kissed at my door. (I felt that kiss right down to my tootsies.)

1 AM and when I went inside I called Dad to let him know I just found the guy I would marry.

Where was that choice?

Where was your choice for your husband? Did you ever logic out if you would or wouldn't love him? Did you ever have that choice? Love isn't a choice at the beginning. It happens. We really can will ourselves to go back to love, but that first moment of love? No choice! No logicing stuff out. It just dinks, like turning on a light switch.

We love God because he first loved us! No choice. (Super cute too. lol)

Now I need to see a pic of this super cute hubby,I thought I got the only one

Yes,at the instant love was irresistible,but as a lot of people here that have been married and divorced will attest,love is a choice too.

 

[Depleted]

So prevenient grace is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. It is the light that those who love their evil deeds turn from.

Saving grace comes from Gods word and the Holy Spirit. Saving grace is the Light that men turn to when they see the condemnation God has pronounced on their sin.

These things should be evident if we can progress past the innate need to label our theology. Just take God at His word and rejoice in Christ Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, prevenient grace is the light switch God put in our dark place so we can decide if we want to turn on the light. And men don't turn the switch on, nor do they/we turn to it. God dinks it on despite us because he loves us.

 

[Depleted]

I have never heard the term "Prevenient grace" used in such a manner.

The Light is Jesus. Every man is given a soul or the breath of life from God that yearns for union with God and His will.

Some turn from their inner light and allow their souls to die, but Jesus can breath life into dead bones.

We had no light -- inner or otherwise. God is the light. He is the one that lights up our lives, and he didn't ask for our permission to bestow it, because he already knew we liked the darkness to hide our sin.

 

[kaylagrl]

She was quoting GotQuestions. (And, I'm pretty sure GotQuestions is 4-point Calvinism. lol)

​Yep I was reading something they gave an opinion on and thought the same thing. There are things they say I agree with soooo,we all must agree on somethin.

 

[Depleted]

This is also semi-Pelagian. Not "some turn", but rather, "all have turned".

Pelegian is all have turned.

Semi-Pelegan is some have turned.

Arminians aren't Pelegans. Even they are affronted by the concept that God saves all.

That's why I hate that word as much as I hate "hyper-Calvinist." It describes less than 1% of the group, and annoys the rest when they're called that.

 

[Ariel82]

For one no ones who the elect are, supposedly the non elect won't have a heart towards God, and will never even begin to think about doing God's will.
.
The elect of course, it will be on their minds as they strive to do it with all they are.

By that logic, wouldn't all who strive to do God's will His elect, since "supposedly the non elect won't have a heart towards God, and will never even begin to think about doing God's will."?

I don't agree. Some people will strive to do God's will under the Law. (they will fail, but still they will strive)

The elect are those who accept the Gospel in faith that only by the grace of God through the redeeming blood of Jesus on the cross are you made a born again child of God sealed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Depleted]

How does one get saving grace? Is it a gift from God or earned by having faith?

Why do some people have faith and others do not?

GOD!!!!!!!!! (fulfilling 10 character demand with that many exclamation points. lol)

 

[Ariel82]

We had no light -- inner or otherwise. God is the light. He is the one that lights up our lives, and he didn't ask for our permission to bestow it, because he already knew we liked the darkness to hide our sin.

Yes I know that. God is the light.

The question is does he give a small measure of light to all and they turn away from that light, or did He never really give the light to the majority of humanity to begin with?

I believe he gave a small measure of His light through all of humanity by His Law.

Yes I know the Law does not save, but that's not my point either.

 

[Ariel82]

ah, man, really?? lol

of course it matters, and since God has given us a new nature, we have the desire to obey Him.
the lost sin because they can't help but to. you're talking like being 'good' saves anyone in that second question.

would you be interested in what the Bible says about election?

I am just asking questions non CALVINIST ask all the time.

I know folks are saved by grace alone through faith in the finished works of Jesus and have seen the Bible verses for election.

I have also seen both sides argue over the verses, so no thanks. I don't think that will help me understand why both positions get so nasty with one another and what is really different about either position.

I know what I believe, but I only have a vague clue what others believe.

 

[Ariel82]

Thats not the calvinist issue. The question "why should unbeliever try to be a good person" applies to every view.

Well, some says that the hell will be differentiated according to the deeds of the person. Some places in the gospel seem to support this.

But it is very unrealistic to think that some unbeliever will be motivated to be "better" because he wants to have a lighter hell

They are rather motivated to be good just by the common grace, they (like us) want to live a peaceful life with a good conscience.

I agree with that. Most Unbelievers look for rewards in the temporal world and don't think towards eternity.

They follow God's law because they don't want to suffer earthy punishment and think that good deeds will earn favor with the spirit realm: thus getting blessings either from God or angels.

Many pagan religions have a version of the concept of Karma.though eastern religions stress more the evil being returned to you, than Western teachings of feel good prosperity gospels.

 

[Depleted]

Yeah...not practical to post the whole Bible and if you post part,folks will say it's out of context...so is it really helpful?

I look back at the covenant God made with Israel through Moses and couldn't see,where He promised them Eternal life. He promised them,earthy blessings but no external life.

However someone can post a scripture and prove my views wrong,

****

Hebrews 10
Hebrews 10 ►
English Standard Version
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.

7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

He promised Israel perfect union with him if they kept the covenant. They wouldn't even keep it in the time it took Moses to go back up after delivering the Ten Commandments, (one of which clearly said DON'T make false images of God, and that was already in their sights), and come back down the second time.

The priest know they couldn't go around touching dead people, but, sure enough, first thing he did. They knew to only gather extra manna the day before Sabbath, but sure enough they gathered extra the first day. Every single law was broken one by one by Man. Every single one!

That covenant was between God and Man. God never broke his side of it. Man always broke our side of it. Same covenant, different sides. God the Father on one side. God the Son on the other. That covenant took. Same covenant. Perfect union with God!

 

[Ariel82]

He promised Israel perfect union with him if they kept the covenant. They wouldn't even keep it in the time it took Moses to go back up after delivering the Ten Commandments, (one of which clearly said DON'T make false images of God, and that was already in their sights), and come back down the second time.

The priest know they couldn't go around touching dead people, but, sure enough, first thing he did. They knew to only gather extra manna the day before Sabbath, but sure enough they gathered extra the first day. Every single law was broken one by one by Man. Every single one!

That covenant was between God and Man. God never broke his side of it. Man always broke our side of it. Same covenant, different sides. God the Father on one side. God the Son on the other. That covenant took. Same covenant. Perfect union with God!

And that's where we disagree...

You believe the Old Covenant is the SAME as the new,JUST. That Jesus fulfilled it for us?

I believe that the New covenant is fundamentally different than the old one that Jesus replaced.

 

[Depleted]

Got to quit for the day. Off to run errands. Jesus welcomes all, desires all to come to the knowledge of the truth. As He wept over Jerusalem, we see God's heart. He desires all would be saved.

And He gives them the ability to do so through His prevenient grace. All mankind will die knowing the truth and either rejecting it or accepting it and receive God's grace of salvation through faith. It's what He teaches.

We read that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Let that sink in for a moment. Instead He's pleased when we repent. Glory Hallelujah!!!

If God does what pleases Him, He gives mankind the ability to repent. Each person will die, knowing they rejected truth and did not repent of their wicked deeds. They could have, but they chose not to. Not because God passed them over and only chose some. He desires that all men everywhere repent and live.

Matthew 22:1-14

Do you think the king welcomed those who never came?

 

[Marano]

By that logic, wouldn't all who strive to do God's will His elect, since "supposedly the non elect won't have a heart towards God, and will never even begin to think about doing God's will."?

I don't agree. Some people will strive to do God's will under the Law. (they will fail, but still they will strive)

The elect are those who accept the Gospel in faith that only by the grace of God through the redeeming blood of Jesus on the cross are you made a born again child of God sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I believe if the holy spirit really works on someone's heart, that person will strive to do God's will.
If someone strives to do God's will outside of the holy spirit, what good is that? Wouldn't they be doing it for their own selfish reasons?

 

[Ariel82]

Note (hopefully so I won't be misunderstood)

I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant perfectly. Only man to ever have done so.

I just believe that God established a New Covenant with His people. He did a New thing the world had never seen before, though many pagan religions pretend to copy Him.

 

[Depleted]

Nah.that's why they give us the terms and links because it's not about the Bible verses but HOW you read and understand the Bible.

For us, that is the same thing. Reformed Theology is about understanding the Bible as a whole.

Have you not noticed? You refute from something you read in the Bible, and we come back with a larger view of the very thing you used to refute. You hit us with the Law, we're not coming back with Peter walking on water. We're coming to that same scene you're at. It is very much the whole Bible for us. It's another word we use a lot "systematic theology." That compares to a little-here-and-a-little-there theology. It is ever so much the complete book for us!

 

[Ariel82]

I believe if the holy spirit really works on someone's heart, that person will strive to do God's will.
If someone strives to do God's will outside of the holy spirit, what good is that? Wouldn't they be doing it for their own selfish reasons?

How's back to the question: does the Holy Spirit only work in the lives of the elect or does God work in the lives of nonbelievers also?