Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Next we have straw man 2 & 3: Loose Salvation man and his twin sinless perfection man!

Two for one special...

He is great to toss in place of folks who want to encourage others to do good works and don't believe in OSAS. Instead of seeing them as young immature Christians who haven't learnt to rely on God fully yet, you can instead label them as Loose Salvation men and women. They now believe that you lose and gain salvation daily. Also you have the added bonus of accusing them of seeking sinless perfection.


Isn't this all just wonderful folks?

 

[Ariel82]

After everyone is done playing dress up with their strawmen...maybe we could get back to what you actually believe, instead of your false ideas of what others believe?

 

[mailmandan]

The part where you have the mistaken impression that anyone is against doing good works AFTER salvation.

What is being preach against is working FOR salvation and not relying on Jesus and His finished work on the cross but having faith in your own works....

However, doubt you will listen,

Amen! and again I say, AMEN!

 

[notmyown]

Next we have straw man 2 & 3: Loose Salvation man and his twin sinless perfection man!

Two for one special...

He is great to toss in place of folks who want to encourage others to do good works and don't believe in OSAS. Instead of seeing them as young immature Christians who haven't learnt to rely on God fully yet, you can instead label them as Loose Salvation men and women. They now believe that you lose and gain salvation daily. Also you have the added bonus of accusing them of seeking sinless perfection.


Isn't this all just wonderful folks?

sweetheart, you need a break. sarcasm from you is just so unusual. that's normally my gig. lol

i'll make us some tea, sound good?

 

[FranC]

So much for you trying to encourage me, Peter. You can't even answer a question that I've asked you 3 times. :/

He answered it Blue. I saw it.
You missed it. I can't rememer the number of the post.
But some of the books were Psalms, Ephesians, John...
Check it out...

 

[Ariel82]

sweetheart, you need a break. sarcasm from you is just so unusual. that's normally my gig. lol

i'll make us some tea, sound good?

Yeah...going to take the kids to the beach.

Leave it all in God's hands.

 

[FranC]

WORK OUT is certainly different than WORK FOR. In the first place, there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification. Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith.

The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (1 Thessalonians 4:3,4; 5:14-18; James 4:7; Titus 2:12 etc..). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

NO NO MMD

You said that WORKING OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TRMBLING is different than
WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.

You make many nice satements above which sound really good...

BUT YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION.

Try again.

How is WORKING OUT our salvation with fear and trembling
DIFFERENT FROM

WORKING FOR our salvation with fear and trembling.

Thanks.

P.S. For the nice folk who gave you likes, I think it only fair to post the original post to which you are responding.

Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post

In Philippians 2:12, notice that it says, "work out" your salvation not "work for" your salvation. This cannot refer to salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit in the process of ongoing sanctification. Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Good to make everything clear...

 

[notmyown]

Yeah...going to take the kids to the beach.

Leave it all in God's hands.

there you go! no better hands than His.

have fun at the beach, and don't forget the sunscreen.

 

[FranC]

Sin is not God's shortcoming, but ours.

Oh.

Then why do some on this thread say that it's GOD WORKING THROUGH US.

You don't agree with this then?

If it IS God working through us, then HE IS responsible for our shortcomings.
It means HE didn't work right.

This is different from saying that the Holy Spirit is our helper.

 

[FranC]

Excellent post!

Why weren't my posts on this Excellent???

I've explained it many times.
MMD does seem to be saying that our works are NECESSARY.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Then I probably missed it amongst all the other posts.. lol

He answered it Blue. I saw it.
You missed it. I can't rememer the number of the post.
But some of the books were Psalms, Ephesians, John...
Check it out...

 

[MattforJesus]

The truth is God will not totally control us,and not twist our arm to do what He wants us to do,or else there would not be hypocrites,and all saints would never sin again,and many people let the flesh get in the way of what God requires of people.

 

[Grandpa]

NO NO MMD

You said that WORKING OUT OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TRMBLING is different than
WORKING FOR OUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.

You make many nice satements above which sound really good...

BUT YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION.

Try again.

How is WORKING OUT our salvation with fear and trembling
DIFFERENT FROM

WORKING FOR our salvation with fear and trembling.

Thanks.

P.S. For the nice folk who gave you likes, I think it only fair to post the original post to which you are responding.

Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post

In Philippians 2:12, notice that it says, "work out" your salvation not "work for" your salvation. This cannot refer to salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit in the process of ongoing sanctification. Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Good to make everything clear...

Jeremiah 33:9 [FONT=&quot]And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]That is what we are working out in regards to our Salvation. All the goodness and prosperity that God procures unto us.

Working for, of course, would be trying to merit this goodness and prosperity that God gives as a gift.

 

[notmyown]

Why weren't my posts on this Excellent???

I've explained it many times.
MMD does seem to be saying that our works are NECESSARY.

i hope you'll forgive me for not reading a couple of hundred pages in case you already answered this question...

but necessary for what, exactly?

thanks.

 

[FranC]

FranC you should learn to listen more than you speak.

Perhaps a course on logic might help rid you of your fallacies.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to teach you how to overcome your illogical assumptions.

Perhaps, if you overcome your pride, you might learn it on your own?

The Most Common Logical Fallacies

View attachment 169928

Thanks for trying, but no cigar.

You know what's interesting about your post?

Way back when I first got here, I told Dcon he was using a red herring fallacy.

He kind of made fun of me.

Let's see if he makes fun of YOU since you listed SOOOOO many.

 

[PeterJens]

So much for you trying to encourage me, Peter. You can't even answer a question that I've asked you 3 times. :/

Hi blue,

Ephesians, Matthew 5 to 7, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Pauls letters, Psalms

I am sorry you missed this

Peter

 

[blue_ladybug]

Fran,

God works through us to ENABLE us to WANT to do good works. He's not actually doing them FOR us.

Let's say you feel compelled to visit a shut-in person who can't get out and doesn't have any family and is all alone. So you visit with her every day, sometimes bring her a meal, etc. Is that compulsion of YOUR own doing, or is it GOD convicting you to go and do a good work for someone less fortunate?

THAT'S what MMD means by God working through us.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 15:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,


The Greek word for "has accomplished" is the same word in Phil. 2:12 - "work out".


Philippians 2:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The word "for" in verse 13 is pivotal in the understanding of verse 12.

Jesus said "Without Me you can do nothing."

We live by His life in us now. We are joined as one spirit by the Holy Spirit with Him forever. 1 Cor. 6:17 & John 14:16

For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3

 

[FranC]

Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their ongoing sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2), *not fear of God as if He is a tyrant who can't wait to punish you every time you mess up.

*That is the unhealthy fear of God that I had while growing up in the Roman Catholic church.

I was in a discussion on a different Christian forum in which the thread was entitled: "Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?" We had a very good discussion.

Many came to agree there is an initial sanctification in which believers are made holy in standing before God postionally in Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (past tense) in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctificationand honor. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality (ongoing sanctification) is not a one time event.

I don't know MMD.
You kind of explaind it pretty well in that post of yours above.

Justification and Sanctification CANNOT be gleened from he bible because Paul used the terms interchangeably.

This is a concept or doctrine which must be studied.

If you believe sanctification is a one time event, YOU'RE REPEATING CATHOLIC DOCTRINE! oh no!

Also, there's no such thing as POSITIONAL in the bible.
Show me ONE VERSE that says we are POSITIONALLY anything.

JUSTIFICATION is a one time deal. Done by God. Salvation.
SANCTIFICATION is ongoing. It requires our CO.OPERATION, it requires our works.

There is no use in saying that God does NOT require works, or that they are a result of something, for instance our salvation.

Of course they're a result o our salvation. Do UNSAVED persons do works for God?

So it's CORRECT to say, and Paul said it many times, that we must CONTINUE in our faith and work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Also, I've taught in the Catholic Church just very recently - up till two years ago.

FEAR of GOD is NOT taught.

How old are you anyway and which Catholic Church did you go to that they made you hate is so much??
I'm sorry for this.

 

[mailmandan]

Why weren't my posts on this Excellent???

I've explained it many times.
MMD does seem to be saying that our works are NECESSARY.

If that's what you believe, then apparently everything I explained to you about working "out" our salvation vs. working "for" our salvation just went right over your head.