Lets Talk Free Choice

[Adstar]

Maybe he wants 'SovereignGrace' there?

No SoverignGrace i am ok with people disagreeing with me.. but when they accuse me of saying things i never said and i call them out on it and they refuse to deal with it.. Then that's when fellowship comes to an end..

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Nope, that's not how its laid out in the scriptures.

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Sissy, those who receive Him have been born of God. Those who were first, born of God, received Him. You are saying ppl receive Him and then are born of God and that's backwards.

his own did not receive him - their choice not to receive him
yet to all who did receive him - their choice to receive him, their choice to believe in him and because of that they have the right to become children of God; i.e. born of God
This is saying that those who received him and believed in him FIRST were born of God . . . . we just read it differently and no use rehashing over and over . . . .

As for John 6:29 . . . (v27) Don't work for the food that perishes but (work) for the food that lasts for eternal life . . . . (28) What can we do to perform the works of God? they asked. Jesus replied, "This is the work of God--that YOU BELIEVE in the one he has sent." The question wasn't what works does God perform; it was what can WE DO TO PERFORM the works of God. . . . . Don't you work for food that perishes? So we are to work for the food that lasts for eternal life. Further in the context: (v40) For this is the will of my Father: that everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES in him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. (v44) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: And they will all be taught by God. EVERYONE WHO HAS LISTENED TO AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER COMES TO ME. - Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. That is how the Father draws - the Father draws - some will reject and some will accept.

The difference in what we believe comes down to this - I believe we are born again because of our belief in Christ first and you believe you were elected to believe and therefore the sole reason of why you are born again is because you were first elected, then you believed - Do I have the correct understanding?

Bingo! Seeing that not everybody who has ever lived has had faith[2 Thess. 3:2], we can see that faith is a gift of God.[John 1:29, Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2] That is why it never profited them who had no faith.

This is the work of God--that you believe in the one whom he has sent . . . you believe that God "makes" you believe before you are born again . . . I believe that because of my belief in Christ, I am born again and that it is available to ALL men which goes with MANY verses John 3:16,18; John 3:36; John 6:40; John 20:31; Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16; 3:22; 1 Tim. 1:16; 1 John 3:23; 1 John 5:10,13. It's not faith that is a gift; it is salvation that is a gift and salvation comes through faith (belief) in Jesus Christ. You are saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH . . . faith in whom? Jesus Christ. (Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.)

Romans 12:3 (context) Therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God: this is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. - Where does that say faith is a gift . . .

Hebrews 12:2 Therefore, since we also have such a large cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us. Let us run with endurance the race that lies before us, keeping our eyes on Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that lay before Him endured a cross and despised the shame and has sat down at the right hand of God's throne. . . . The source/author and perfecter of our faith - we are to keep our eyes upon Jesus who raised his faith to perfection and set before us the HIGHEST example of faith . . . .

 

[Depleted]

In most cases Lynn when we hold on to a theology or doctrine that defines our beliefs (other than bold biblical truth) we tend to put God in a box as we believe that the perimeter we have drawn from that theology is the only way God works.

Case in point...Peter holding on to dietary laws told the Lord not so 3 times.
Rehab ...a prostitute and liar Scripture not showing a repenting heart yet in the hall of fame.
Lot....living in sin city saved....because of a promise made to Abraham.
We have a God that makes all things possible. What is hard for him?
If we are created in his image we are all predestined.

And, the very reason my labels change over the years. lol

At one point in time my labels included:
-- back slider
-- doubting-Thomas
-- Arminian
-- brown eyed
-- brown haired
-- young
-- liberal
-- country girl

And all these years later? Well, I still have brown-eyes. lol

 

[Grace777x70]

No SoverignGrace i am ok with people disagreeing with me.. but when they accuse me of saying things i never said and i call them out on it and they refuse to deal with it.. Then that's when fellowship comes to an end..

I agree. We will always have differences of opinions and that is not a bad thing. We often each have a "part" that is needed. But it is when the bad behavior comes in with those that do disagree. I too will not interact with them anymore until I see the behavior change.

No good comes from further interaction because we can't "hear" what the other person is saying nor will we "allow" them to have an opinion that is different then ours - so we feel it is our "Christian duty" to publicly insult them and de-mean them.

I am using my free will to do this too.... Phil. 2:13 is always at play.

 

[Adstar]

I know! That's your job. You put words in other people's mouth. How dare they put words in your mouth too, Adstar Zombie?

And yes, by all means Calvinist MUST apologize to the one calling us zombies.

You really don't think at all. I'm mighty impress. I haven't met anyone that unable to think in a long time.

One of my main objectives in this discussion was to show that NO human beings are Zombies.. So of course i do not believe that calvinists are Zombies.. I believe calvinists have Free will.. They have the free will to believe they have no free will.. So if you would quote my post where i said Calvinists are Zombies i will apologize for that wrong statement publicly to you..

On another point you have declared me to be a Zombie:: Now i can kind of understand if you feel i called calvinists Zombies, Us humans who are offended often hit back because of hurt emotions before taking a breath and taking the better path..

 

[Depleted]

This is nothing but ad hominem. We don't quote creed pages, but use God's word.

Not to mention, it's a lie because we don't believe anything she keeps claiming we believe either.

 

[Grandpa]

No SoverignGrace i am ok with people disagreeing with me.. but when they accuse me of saying things i never said and i call them out on it and they refuse to deal with it.. Then that's when fellowship comes to an end..

Do you mean like saying Calvinism believes that no one can resist the Holy Spirit???

What's it called when you do something that you tell others not to do? hypocrisy?

 

[Depleted]

Good post peacefulbeliever but as you noticed from sovereigngrace's response and the usual use of man's wisdom to explain it away.

ITS THE GOSPEL IN REVERSE, thats calvinism in a nutshell, everything is upside down. Climbing the tree from the top to the roots.

First you are regenerated, then you believe, then you repent <- Gospel in reverse.
First you repent, then you believe, then you are regenerated <- The true gospel as clearly laid out hundreds of times.

Regenerated - bringing back from the dead.

So you're saying, Lazarus first repented, then believed, and then Jesus raised him from the dead.

Good trick. Would like to see that in action. Move over, David Blaine and David Copperfield. Issachar has a trick even you can't pull off.

 

[Depleted]

Click on their username and then go to their profile. Under their username, choose 'put member on ignore' or something like that.


It may be he's wanting to put on ignore.

#gulp

"Add to ignore list."

Now the truth comes out. If you see my name as one of the last 10 to visit your page, it's likely I either ignored you or tried to figure out who you are. Lately, it's the former.

(And why am I tempted to check out your page now, to keep you wondering Sov? lol)

 

[Depleted]

Do you mean like saying Calvinism believes that no one can resist the Holy Spirit???

What's it called when you do something that you tell others not to do? hypocrisy?

Or calling us zombies?

Yeah, hypocrite works!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

First God regenerates you by giving you godly sorrow unto repentance (when Reformed folks say you are born again)..,then you believe the Gospel that Jesus died for your sins...then you confess with your mouth...then you are sealed with the Holy Spirit (when I believe you are born again)..,then the Holy Spirit continues to regenerate/renew your mind to God's righteousness and teaches you how to live a godly life.

First you hear and believe the gospel according to God's word; i.e. faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God which brings about godly sorrow - then you repent and are baptized for the remission of sins and receive the gift of holy spirit;(Acts 2:38) i.e. born again, sealed with holy spirit. (Eph. 1:13 1) When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and 2) when you believed in him, 3) you were also sealed with the promised holy spirit; i.e. born again)

If you confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth resulting in salvation. (HCSB) Romans 10:9,10

Does God renew our minds?

 

[followjesus]

2 Thessalonians 3:2New International Version (NIV)

2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

This by no means supports unconditional election or in the context related to salvation. Paul, Silas, and Timothy was under great persecution and asked for prayers. So this verse is only implying these people have denied grace and remained in rebellion.
John 1:29New International Version (NIV)

John Testifies About Jesus

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Very true, I do not see how this relates to the debate?


Romans 12:3-8
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a]faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

This scripture always gets taken out of context. In context Romans 12:3 is speaking on the various ways and capacities to serve as Christians. Not salvation.



Hebrews 12New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
In context again we see how we perfect our faith. 1. resist sin 2. run with perseverance 3. Fixing our eyes 4. Remember Christ's sacrifice so we wontgrow weary and lose heart.


Staying focused on Jesus will perfect our faith.

"Staying focused on Jesus will perfect our faith."

amen, i saw earlier someone say " faith is to accept the " finished work of the cross", to me faith is to accept all of the word of God and believe it including the sacrifice of Jesus, but equally His word because

romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." kjv

i think translations have some influence in things because niv currently says this which is different


romans 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

hearing about Jesus is wonderful, Hearing His word builds faith when we dont reject it like he says so many times

 

[followjesus]

Mark 13:22New International Version (NIV)

22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Maybe the elect isnt what yall are trying to make them out to be if even the elect can be deceived.

amen we understand election by looking at the example of isreals election. God elected them, they persisted in rejecting His ways and let them destroy themselves. God wants us to choose Him, because he has done so much to provide us with Life, and has Loved us so well. Love has to be willingly from both parties or it isnt Love.

 

[pottersclay]

And, the very reason my labels change over the years. lol

At one point in time my labels included:
-- back slider
-- doubting-Thomas
-- Arminian
-- brown eyed
-- brown haired
-- young
-- liberal
-- country girl

And all these years later? Well, I still have brown-eyes. lol

Being transformed by the renewing of your minds, that's where I'm at sis. Potter's clay let God shape and mold me not my finite beliefs but his infinite ways and wisdom.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Regenerated - bringing back from the dead.

So you're saying, Lazarus first repented, then believed, and then Jesus raised him from the dead.

Good trick. Would like to see that in action. Move over, David Blaine and David Copperfield. Issachar has a trick even you can't pull off.

The way I see it - Lazarus had probably already repented since him and Jesus were such good friends - Lazarus knew Jesus was the Messiah and believed he was the Messiah and Jesus raised him from the dead. No trick involved!
[Regenerate - 1) formed or created again; 2) spiritually reborn or converted; 3) restored to a better, higher, or more worthy state] Is regenerate a biblical term? Just wondering because I put it into biblegateway and came up with 0 verses.

 

[Willie-T]

amen we understand election by looking at the example of isreals election. God elected them, they persisted in rejecting His ways and let them destroy themselves. God wants us to choose Him, because he has done so much to provide us with Life, and has Loved us so well. Love has to be willingly from both parties or it isnt Love.

I think you nailed it pretty well.

 

[notmyown]

And, the very reason my labels change over the years. lol

At one point in time my labels included:
-- back slider
-- doubting-Thomas
-- Arminian
-- brown eyed
-- brown haired
-- young
-- liberal
-- country girl

And all these years later? Well, I still have brown-eyes. lol

why you?? why you and not me???

my eyes, which were brown, are losing pigment along with my hair and are almost completely green now.
and there's a lesson in there somewhere, but i'm tired.

 

[Stephen63]

My, no shortage of people arguing here.....

People can say what they want, but you know it's bad when I want no part of it.

 

[Depleted]

The way I see it - Lazarus had probably already repented since him and Jesus were such good friends - Lazarus knew Jesus was the Messiah and believed he was the Messiah and Jesus raised him from the dead. No trick involved!
[Regenerate - 1) formed or created again; 2) spiritually reborn or converted; 3) restored to a better, higher, or more worthy state] Is regenerate a biblical term? Just wondering because I put it into biblegateway and came up with 0 verses.

It's another two words in the Bible -- "Born again."

And you're saying Jesus wouldn't have brought Lazarus back to life, if Lazarus hadn't repented? From memory, it seems he brought him back for his sisters' sakes. Think about it. Where was Lazarus when he was dead? In Paradise! Why would he want to come back by that time? And Jesus knew where Lazarus was, so he wasn't crying for Lazarus. He'd be seeing Lazarus in a short while. He was crying because of the sorrow of the sisters.

 

[Depleted]

I think you nailed it pretty well.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.