Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[Grace777x70]

Oh saints of my Lord. It is grace and mercy always. Not by works or by power but by my spirit says my Lord. His word in us as believers can only flourish through faith in Him. Nothing I can do or say or think will change the love He has for me. To all whom have fallen short take courage you are not alone but His mercy and His grace due to His sacrifice on the cross is done finished and is poorer out on all. We argue of trivial things like can i loose my salvation NEVER or if it did his word would be a lie. We see things with our eyes and our understanding yet he tells us over and over again : My ways are not your ways My Thoughts are not your thoughts all of us have fallen short all of us have still that sinfully nature in us. Alone we are nothing But through Jesus we are new creatures in him. We can not see our brothers heart or know all which incompasses it. That's why Jesus says Love one another as yourself then He says love one another as I do no matter what.
Saints of the Father love his love made alive in us is the only ways for His Glory and truth to be manifest to others through these simple vessels of clay. His mercy on us all endures FOREVER and not what we think righteousness or obedience should be .
HIS LOVE is the only way.

Well said and welcome to CC...

Our Lord can be trusted to do what He said He would do. His ways are higher then our ways as the stars are higher then the earth.

The religion of man and the Old Covenant was - "You do in order to get".

( this is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil )

In the gospel of the New Covenant - The gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection says: "It is done - believe and receive".

( this is eating from the tree of Life - which is Christ Himself )

 

[FranC]

Romans 1.18 was in context a condemnation of all gentiles. So they all certainly didn't KNOW God intimately. What Paul says is that they knew about Him but were in darkness.

Valiant,

Romans 1:18 is a condemnation of ALL MEN, not only gentiles, BUT ALSO JEWS, who DO NOT BELIEVE.

Please read it again.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


Romans 1:16-20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed [a]from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [c]in unrighteousness,

19 because that which is known about God is evident [d]within them; for God made it evident to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Verse 16 CLEARLY states that Paul is speaking about the JEW and THE GREEK.
verse 18 states "the unrighteousness of MEN. ALL MEN.

He's saying that ALL MEN FROM THE BEGINNING could know God and HAVE NO EXCUSE.
If they didn't KNOW God, they WOULD have an excuse, they could just say they never knew God. THAT would e their excuse.

 

[FranC]

What does Jesus do if we stop responding or go astray.

What does he say about his sheep that have gone astray?

So what are you saying?

Jesus comes looking for you, grabs you, and brings you back into the fold? By force? Or do you have to WANT to go back?
Do we have free will or not after becoming saved?

Parables were told for a reason. I'm sorry I don't have time, and will have to resort to soemthing I don't like to do, a link.
It will explain very well what this parable means.

Jesus is Always looking for the lost. BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE THEM BACK.
The sheep in the parable was never even saved to begin with. I like Romans 3:23. There is much joy in heaven over one lost sinner.

We need to stop putting what WE want into parables and read what JESUS MEANT.
We are FREE to wander off and NEVER GO Back, IF THAT IS WHAT WE WANT.

We were saved by our free will to WANT to be saved, we did NOT lose this free will AFTER we were saved.
We can wander off whenever we WANT to. Jesus Waits for us to return (just like the Father in the Prodigal Son) But we will never be FORCED to return.

You like GotQuestions:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Patterns of Consistency in the parables

1) The main character possesses something valuable and does not want to lose it.
2) The main character rejoices in the finding of the lost thing, but does not rejoice alone.
3) The main character (God) expresses care in either the looking or the handling of that which was lost.
4) Each thing that was lost has a personal value, not just a monetary value: shepherds care for their sheep, women cherish their bridal jewelry, and a father loves his son.

Incidentally, this first illustration of the shepherd caring the sheep on his shoulders was the original figure used to identify Christians before people began identifying Christianity with crosses. In these parables Jesus paints with words a beautiful picture of God’s grace in His desire to see the lost return to Him. Men seek honor and avoid shame; God seeks to glorify Himself through us His sheep, His sons and daughters. Despite having ninety-nine other sheep, despite the sinful rebellion of His lost sheep, God joyfully receives it back, just as He does when we repent and return to Him.

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-lost-sheep-coin.html

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

It's really interesting to me how we put our own idea into everything we read, instead of just reading it clearly.

 

[FranC]

Actually what does Jesus say about his sheep?

What?

Luke 15:7
THERE WILL BE MORE JOY IN HEAVEN?

MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE?

Do those who are NOT His sheep hear His voice?

 

[FranC]

Interesting topic, (falling away from the faith) well Peter sure did fall right into to water, but he didn't drown Jesus helped him into the boat.

WHY did Peter fall into the water?

 

[FranC]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Just start from scratch and read the above again.

WHO hears His voice?
WHAT do they do?
Because of THIS, what do they GET?
WHO is not able to snatch them out of God's hand?

 

[FranC]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity.

We should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures but let's get the proper foundation in the Lord down first so that these warning scriptures will be put in their proper place.

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear,because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord when we leave this earth because we are joined as one spirit with Him".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!" Jesus said that the Holy Spirit ewill be in us forever. John 14:16

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

You're right Grace...

ALL Jesus did was to WARN us.
All the N.T. Writers did was to WARN us.

Difficult to understand how you fly right by this...

Too many verses to post, practically the Whole bible.

How do you like this one?
john the Baptist...

Mathew 3:7-10

John calls the pharisees and sadducees a brood of vipers because they did not BRING FORTH FRUIT in keeping with repentence.
I understand that you're saying that we SHOULD bring forth fruit.

I'm saying we MUST bring forth fruit.

verse 8: The P and S should not assume that because Abraham is their father, they are seen well by God. John is telling them that it is their life that must change...because if it doesn't:

verse 10: The axe is already laid at the root, every tree that DOES NOT BEAR GOOD FRUIT, will be cut down.


This analogy of branches and trees being cut down is throughout scripture.
IT IS A WARNING to bear good fruit.

THE WORK OF JESUS IS COMPLETED AND FINISHED, as you state.

NOW IT'S UP TO US.

Our good works are not a request.

They are a demand.

THIS IS WHERE WE DIFFER.
You are not doing anyone any favor by making it seem that it's OK if we don't do our part.
THIS is what, in effect, you are doing.

The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenanat is the method by HOW we FOLLOW Jesus.

In the Old Covenant it was by our own efforts, which failed.

In the New Covenant Jesus sent us a helper, the Holy Spirit, to convict us, to comfort us, to help us.

BUT THE LAW HAS NOT BEEN ABOLISHED, as Jesus plainly and clearly says in Mathew 5:17.
WE MUST follow the Law.

It's a fruit of our love for Christ. True. But you make it sound like we only have to IF WE WANT TO.
THIS IS NOT TRUE.

The sanctification process INSISTS that we cooperate with God in being holy, being set apart.


I write this for those reading along. The bible is very clear in what it says. It only needs to be read without any preconceived ideas and the truth will be known.

 

[FranC]

That's true, and also, Peter had not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit when he attempted to follow Jesus' example of walking on water.

So after Peter received the gift of the Holy Spirit he COULD walk on the water?

WHAT is the point of that story?
Could you enlighten us?

 

[FranC]

Believe = to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in.





Quote from your earlier post:

So when someone disagrees with you it is because they do not go to a "good, bible teaching Church" or they do not read Scripture with "an open mind" or their "relationship with God and the KNOWLEDGE of Him" is somehow lacking???

Your chutzpah is hilarious.

Let's see.
First of all your description of BELIEVE is not the GREEK description of BELIEVE.
Try again.

Of course if someone does not agree with me it's because they don't understand the bible.

You should be happy this is all I've said. Some, right here on this thread, have called me NAMES because I don't agree with them. Rather nasty names. Something Christians should not even do.

Also, if you want to know biblical truth, you will NOT FIND IT in Calvinism.

Mr. Calvin came along 1,500 years AFTER Jesus died. What makes you think HE understood the bible MORE than all those that came before him?????

If you want to know what Jesus taught the Apostles, who were with Him for His entire ministry, you'll have to go back BEFORE the reformation, all the way back to THE BEGINNING and read what those who were alive back then taught about what Jesus preached.

This would be a very good study for you and you'd come back here with THE TRUTH, not what Mr. Calvin THOUGHT was the truth.

In fact, there's a very good series on youtube about this from an evangelical who became interested, learned what they taught, had his ideas changed because of this, and did this series.

I don't like to post links because THE BIBLE should be sufficient to understand THE TRUTH.

However, if you're at all interested, you could PM me and I'll give you the link.

Each talk lasts about 1 1/2 hours, and there's one on every important topic.

I've only heard a little bit of a couple, but it's very good.

 

[FranC]

Oh saints of my Lord. It is grace and mercy always. Not by works or by power but by my spirit says my Lord. His word in us as believers can only flourish through faith in Him. Nothing I can do or say or think will change the love He has for me. To all whom have fallen short take courage you are not alone but His mercy and His grace due to His sacrifice on the cross is done finished and is poorer out on all. We argue of trivial things like can i loose my salvation NEVER or if it did his word would be a lie. We see things with our eyes and our understanding yet he tells us over and over again : My ways are not your ways My Thoughts are not your thoughts all of us have fallen short all of us have still that sinfully nature in us. Alone we are nothing But through Jesus we are new creatures in him. We can not see our brothers heart or know all which incompasses it. That's why Jesus says Love one another as yourself then He says love one another as I do no matter what.
Saints of the Father love his love made alive in us is the only ways for His Glory and truth to be manifest to others through these simple vessels of clay. His mercy on us all endures FOREVER and not what we think righteousness or obedience should be .
HIS LOVE is the only way.

You're right Merc.

I don't debate any aspect of God's love except THIS ONE.

There's a very specific reason.

OSAS is a very bad and damaging doctrine.

It teaches that one need only believe in Jesus ONE TIME in their Whole life and then they'll be saved forever.

Do you agree with this? Or do you believe it's NECESSARY for us to stay near to Jesus and follow in His ways and do what He taught us to remain within the fold of the shepherd?

Do you believe it's a good idea to teach a new Christian that God DOES REQUIRE a life change from us, or do you believe it's OK to make them think they could do whatever they want to and still be withing God's requirements?

We all here, on these threads, believe in God's love, grace and mercy (which is part of grace). Why else would HE HIMSELF have died on the cross for our atonement?

But some say that Christ DID IT ALL. No. Christ did what had to be done for us to gain access to heaven. After all, persons were saved in the O.T. too, awaiting for the sacrifice to have this access and be freed from "prison". Luke 16.

Christ did HIS part,
Do you believe that we must also do our part?

 

[Sagart]

Hi Sagart,

Your post has confused me a little bit.

You say do not misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security.
As taught by the early church Fathers up to 16th Century and the large majority of Christians since then.
Then you say they teach Gods blessed assurance and love if we continue to believe in Jesus, in him who sent him, who continue to obey the son and who continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Then you post verses that talk about believing abs in doing so has eternal life and insulting grace.

I think I am confused because I don't know whether your saying belief saves or whether belief and obeying saves.
Not saying it's wrong to obey what Jesus has asked us to do. We should as beleivers do what Jesus has asked us to do.

My confusion has come from the verse John 3:36 that you posted.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (ESV)

But

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (NKJV)

See the difference ESV "whoever does not obey" NKV "He who does not believe"

Can you clarify for me what it is you are actually trying to convey.

Your post has confused me a little bit, too. I do not understand this line,

“Then you post verses that talk about believing abs in doing so has eternal life and insulting grace.”

However, regarding John 3:36, we have two different opinions regarding the correct translation of the Greek word ἀπειθέω. The translators of the KJV and NKJV favor the translation ‘does not believe’ for theological reasons; most other translators favor the literal translation ‘disobeys’ in keeping with the overwhelming academic opinion that the literal translation is to be preferred. The best, by a very wide margin, Greek-English lexicon, the BDAG* ( as it is cited in academic literature) gives “disobey, be disobedient” as the meaning of ἀπειθέω in our biblical literature, and cites very many verses from the Septuagint and the New Testament in support of that meaning. It basically comes down to the question of whether one’s theology should line up with the Bible, or should we force the Bible to line up with our theology. It is my opinion that there is nothing more important than the truth, and that the truth is found in the Bible rather than in our theology.

* A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

 

[Sagart]

We do not maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security. We say it is wrong. Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all clearly taught eternal security, based on His faithfulness.

I was addressing a specific individual who did maliciously misrepresent the doctrine of conditional security.

If Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John all clearly taught eternal security, based on His faithfulness, we would find that belief at least mentioned, either favorably or unfavorably, throughout the history of the Church—but we do not find it in any Christian literature until the 16th century! We do find, however, the doctrine of conditional security in very numerous writings throughout the first 1,500 years of the Church. Moreover, we never find the doctrine of conditional security being defended against any opposing doctrine, because no opposing doctrine was known until the 16th century.

More importantly, every single verse or passage from the Bible quoted thus far in this thread in support of the doctrine of eternal security has been shown to have been quoted out of context, and/or the grammar and the lexicography used in the verses and passages have been shown to prove that the verses and passages support no such thing! Furthermore, many verses and passages from the Bible have been quoted in which it was proven from the context and/or the grammar and the lexicography that those verses and passages did indeed teach the doctrine of conditional security.

The early fathers are notorious for not understanding the teaching of the Apostles

This is a lie!

But the rest of your statement is false.

Not true!

You are following the Roman Catholic church

This is a lie!

 

[mailmandan]

So some more jackpot questions:

Do you decide to abstain, or does the Holy Spirit force you to abstain?

Believers decide to abstain. Abstaining is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

What if you decide against the sanctification process, reject it, and go back into living in worldliness? Is that salvation?

Is that descriptive of someone who is truly born of God? NO 1 John 3:7-10. Another straw man argument.

Does that justification (which you say saves you) preclude the requirement of sanctification?

Are you implying that justification through faith is insufficient to save (Romans 5:1) and "in addition" to having been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) we must reach entire sanctification in our lifetime in order to be saved?

There is an initial sanctification in which believers are made holy in standing before God postionally in Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (past tense) in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctificationand honor. Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality (ongoing sanctification) is not a one time event but is ongoing.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus in parables used straw men. If the use of straw men is evil the so is Jesus.
Somehow it seems people think saying that is a straw man answers the point.

 

[mailmandan]

Ongoing sanctification, which is the process of being made holy, requires the believer to continue in faith. If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, he is no longer being transformed into the Lord's image.

See post #533. We will not reach entire sanctification until we receive our glorified bodies.

It is important to understand the difference between someone who is in agreement with God about their sin and who has a repentant heart. The person who has gone back into living according to the sinful nature, partying, drugs, sexual immorality, etc., etc., is not going to God for forgiveness. He is no longer in step with the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about the person who is in Christ who is struggling with their sins, but the person who has stopped struggling and has gone back to living as he did prior to receiving Christ.

Show me this person in Scripture and show me the words "lost salvation" in Scripture.

Let me give you one example from the seven churches:

"But you do have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments, and because they are worthy, they will walk with Me in white. Like them, the one who is victorious will be clothed in white garments. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels."

What happens if to those who fit the description above, but who do not overcome? Their garments remain soiled and the promise is reversed i.e. I will blot out your names out of the book of life, I will not confess your name before My Father and His angels.

Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

*All genuine believers are "overcomers!" Praise God!

Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it like this: "If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life."

*But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.

All that I am saying is that continued faith is necessary for salvation, which is what scripture is saying. We are not just saved no matter what we do. It requires faith on our part.

Again, genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Do those who are born of God practice sin or righteousness? 1 John 3:9-10. Nobody is saying that genuine born again Christians run around living like the devil, but will be saved anyway.

 

[PeterJens]

Faith is reflected in behaviour.
So being justified by faith is faith and following of Christ.

A person who claims faith yet sins, in open rebellion and disagreement with Gods principles,
is not walking in faith.

Why is this true?
Because an unrepentant sinner when confronted with sin, refuses to repent, is excluded
from the church. matt 18:15-17

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

There is no compromise with obvious sin.

 

[PeterJens]

Again, genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Do those who are born of God practice sin or righteousness? 1 John 3:9-10. Nobody is saying that genuine born again Christians run around living like the devil, but will be saved anyway.

If faith is so difficult to obtain, or one should question it all the time,
how do you ever know you truly have it and therefore have assurance of faith?

The problem with extremes is by trying to define and analyse too far it loses its
meaning.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree with the above.

Amen!

I don't agree with the above and that because they are referred to branches, meaning that they are believers who produce no fruit. He tells his disciples and us, that we need to remain in him. If a believer turns back to willfully living according to the the sinful nature they are not remaining in Christ.

Who ended up not remaining? Judas Iscariot. Was he saved? NO. He was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). Unlike the remaining 11 disciples who did remain. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit (faith without works is dead) and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then later stopped bearing fruit. When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). NONE

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

In the same way, James 5:18-19 refers to those he is speaking to as "brothers" which would mean that that are true believers would have wandered from the truth. If someone turns them back from that state, they will hide a multitude of sins and save that soul from death.

See post #413.

 

[mailmandan]

If faith is so difficult to obtain, or one should question it all the time,
how do you ever know you truly have it and therefore have assurance of faith?

The problem with extremes is by trying to define and analyse too far it loses its
meaning.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. You never did answer my question from the "Not by Works" thread, so I'll ask it again:

What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16).

 

[mailmandan]

The above quote is error. Nowhere does the bible say self attached branches. This is fictional imagination.

Branches that bear NO fruit are dead branches. Faith without works is dead and is not genuine faith. Once again, in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Here is what the bible says:

Romans 11
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them <who does the grafting in?>, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [SUP]18 [/SUP]do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [SUP]20 [/SUP]Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Clear enough?

That these verses above allegedly teach that genuine born again Christians lose their salvation is clear enough for Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and other works salvationists. But is that what Paul is saying? NO. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God -- but this doesn't speak of losing salvation.