What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[astropolis]

I agonised about this one for years until I realised something. God is trans-temporal, outside time, so what he has done in the past is done in the light of decisions we will freely make in the future.

If you want to think about it in terms of Dr Who (I hope everyone knows what I'm talking about) then as soon as someone accepts Jesus, God leaps in the TARDIS and goes back to predestine them for heaven.

In other words I'm not a supporter of predestination or free will, pro or anti Calvin, because as I see it both cases are exactly the same.

Now of course this sounds rather like quantum mechanics. That's because it is rather like quantum mechanics.

This leaves the question "Why doesn't God go back and fix everything?" This one took me a few years as well, then I hit 2Pet3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The way I see it is that if evil goes then free will has gone up the Swanee as well. If you can't do anything wrong you can't make any moral choices. And that means you can't be what God intends you to be.

Tricky, being God, isn't it? Even omnipotence has its problems.

(BTW this is a good example of how, if asked to choose between A and B, I'll consider C, reject D as unworkable, see the problems with F and G, then do H.)

 

[psalm6819]

Thank you, Kaylagirl, it is wonderful to see you defend truth and stick on topic instead of issuing personal attacks, ie, calling people liars or implying they are stupid.

Corinthians says without love one is a clanging cymbal.

The percussion section attacks.....
But you respond in love.

 

[kaylagrl]

Thank you, Kaylagirl, it is wonderful to see you defend truth and stick on topic instead of issuing personal attacks, ie, calling people liars or implying they are stupid.

Corinthians says without love one is a clanging cymbal.

The percussion section attacks.....
But you respond in love.

Im trying not to respond in kind but I realized that certain people use this as a method.They jump on those that disagree with them and try to choke out the thread. So its best to ignore those types.If people wish to discuss,as this is a discussion forum,I will discuss with either side. But when people become nasty and outraged when defending their theological view it shows that is man made and not of God. I just hope their eyes are opened. But if they will not believe Scripture nothing I say can change their mind. And so I'll avoid that and keep on posting what Scripture says.

 

[Marano]

Yes brother I agree with your last statement,we need Gods grace and the Holy Spirit to guide us. We certainly do agree.Where we disagree is choice based on election. You cannot say someone is elected for heaven and yet they have choice. We do have choice otherwise love is not from our hearts.If we are forced to love,forced to accept a gift then it is neither love nor a gift.The very essence of love is choice. Anyone who is married understands this,love is a choice.If it is not then God is no different than allah,forcing His will on people. God wants a relationship with us and His Holy Spirit draws us to Him. Some will accept,some will reject. All can hear,all can accept,the Bible is clear about this fact. I want to say that through these discussions I very much appreciate your attitude and consider you a brother in the Lord no matter our differences.

Yeah and again I go to a mostly arminian church that only holds to osas, but I consider all of them brothers in Christ, I have no problem doing the same here, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[kaylagrl]

​Some interesting thoughts on what the early church fathers believed. Many who personally knew the disciples.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/calvin-dissing-the-fathers/

 

[kaylagrl]

Yeah and again I go to a mostly arminian church that only holds to osas, but I consider all of them brothers in Christ, I have no problem doing the same here, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Amen! Once again I appreciate your attitude.

 

[followjesus]

Wow, I did not know about this difference between the majority text and the oldest text.

I grew up in the majority text tradition and I have this verse memorized with the word "God" in the end.

But the word Christ changes the meaning quite significantly, for me...

it does, it also changes very significantly in the " word about Christ" and the Word of God"

if a person goes with "the word of God" and then considers all Jesus said about " My Words are not my own, they belong to Him that sent me" such as John 7:16-17, john 12:49-50, john 8:26-28,john 14:10 and several others, then dueteronomy 18:18-19, acts 3:20-26,, acts 7, and 1 timothy 6:3-5... all come together to support, that Jesus words, are the very Words of God, and it makes sense why Jesus continually said things about His teachings , his words like His words being freedom from sin, light to the world, spirit and life, that they quicken us, that they are the "truth" when the things like this are taken in, the translation in the kjv( to me) is the only way to undrstand it, rather than just hearing about Jesus, we need to Hear Jesus, the words he spoke, are the word of God

john 17:4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.<< before Jesus went to the cross he says i have finished the work you gave me.. a l;ittle further along he says

john 17:13-19 "And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

then after His resurrection, the great commission Matthew 28:18-20 ( Go teach the world everything i taught you, teach them to obey these things)

1 peter 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:"

its understood how important Jesus words really are, and to me its not only hearing that Jesus died for us, but actually Hearing His word, the word of God. in the epistels when things like " follow the spirit" obey the truth" walk in the truth" ect are written all of those things are things Jesus said about His teachings. the truth, the spirit and life.

in my own belief its about the word of Jesus, and equally about His death that forgives us, resurrection that includes us. so that translation issue is important.

 

[followjesus]

"There's nothing a sovereign God can't do,"

titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

another way to see this is God will always stick to His word.

 

[kaylagrl]

"There's nothing a sovereign God can't do,"

titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

another way to see this is God will always stick to His word.

Well maybe cannot is not the word that should be used.Of course God could do whatever He wished,but there are things He will not do,like lie or go back on His promises.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Think about this...faith comes from hearing the word. Without hearing it, those who died w/o hearing it had no faith. So that shows that not everyone has faith.

Faith is believing or having trust in someone or something . . . everyone believes or has trust in SOMEONE or SOMETHING.

Faith (belief/trust) comes from hearing the gospel true enough but God also says that no man is without excuse - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (unbelievers) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: AND before the end - all the world will have heard the gospel - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So that leaves man with a choice for God does not do the believing - God urges and points the way to salvation but man HAS to do the believing in the gospel.

 

[Johnny_B]

we are set free By His word, he has always given man freedom to choose, look at the Garden. satan is who took our freedom and enslaved us to sin, by a word of fallacy. Jesus gave the truth that sets free. if you look at all the "if yous" in the new testament, it kind of makes our choice prety obvious. we are wuickened through belief in His word, the only rewuirement is to Have faith in Him, that includes His words if we persevere in the gospel ministry, and believe Jesus words, and also accept His death and resurrection. the power of Gods word, makes us new its what paul is alays referring to " you are new creations" through the word of Jesus, Just as creation came through the word of God because Jesus words, were God the creators.

2 corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

remember that when God created mankind, the first thing He did was give them dominion over all the earth and all that is in it, satan then took control over man, by deception, leading to sin. genesis 6s circumstance when " men are only evil all the time" is the will of satan working in man, not Gods will. Gods will is expressed in what Jesus said thats His will for us How to treat each other things like " be merciful, give to the needy, be faithful to our spouse, dont lust after other mens wives, bless the ones who curse us, ect.... that is Gods will for us and it will always remain the same

Yes if you look at all the "if you" in the New Testament you'll see that they are not all conditional clauses, they are conjunctions. How can we chose if we are blinded by satan to the light of the Gospel? II Corinthians 4:3-4 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." Which is the context of the verse you quoted, as if it is by choice of our will, that the light shines in our hearts, it's by God's command.

Notice it is talking about God's creative power and in the same way He called light out of darkness. He gives us by commanding the light to shine in our (believers) hearts, He by the council of His will, commands that light to shine in our hearts, the bride of Christ, not all men's heart's, it says, "our hearts" not every mans heart. That we would have the knowledge of the truth, His desire is that all men would come to the knowledge of the truth I Timothy 2:4.

John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The Father grants life by His command, the Spirit gives the life, our flesh has nothing to do with it, its all God not us or any chose of any will but God's John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

It's all God, our responsibility is to respond to His call once He has awaked us to it, other wise we are blind to the message of the kingdom that's why Jesus said in John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Unless you have been born again you are blind to the kingdom of God, not my words, Jesus' words.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agonised about this one for years until I realised something. God is trans-temporal, outside time, so what he has done in the past is done in the light of decisions we will freely make in the future.

God's decisions were not dependent upon what man would decide to do. He is God, not man, and not mans decisions.

This is like Molinism, Open Theism, Synergism and other errors on steroids.

Goodness sake the remarkable nonsense people drum up...unbelievable. God doesn't react, His decrees are proactive, based upon the counsel of His will, not upon the counsel of man or man's decisions...

 

[psalm6819]

People are not offended that God is God, people are offended by those who misrepresent Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No,we are grafted in. God deals with us differently but Jews will be saved the same way we all are,though the blood of Christ.


I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]?4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b]5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles {you and I}to make Israel envious.

But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree,how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!


I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with themwhen I take away their sins.”[g]

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.




So this passage of Scripture shows several things. It shows that God has not taken His hand off of the Jews.It shows the Gentiles and the Jews are not one in the same and that the Gentiles have been grafted in to the vine. Here the verse says...Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness." Provided you continue in His kindness! So you have a choice not to continue or to walk away from Gods kindness. In another verses it says..."And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" If they do not persist in unbelief,again a the choice is theirs if they do not persist God is able to graft the Jews in again. Both verses show we have a choice,we can continue in unbelief or we can turn back to God. Free choice,all throughout this passage of Scripture which is about unbelieving Israel who are the chosen,not the church.

Your hyper-dispensationialism is blinding you. I did not say the church replaced anyone. The believing Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ. The church is another name for the body of Christ, which has both Jews and Gentiles. Both believing Jews and Gentiles are grafted into Christ. We are the wild olive shoot and the Jews the natural olive shoot that are both in Christ.

Remember, the Christ died for the church, not the nation of Israel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Im trying not to respond in kind but I realized that certain people use this as a method.They jump on those that disagree with them and try to choke out the thread. So its best to ignore those types.If people wish to discuss,as this is a discussion forum,I will discuss with either side. But when people become nasty and outraged when defending their theological view it shows that is man made and not of God. I just hope their eyes are opened. But if they will not believe Scripture nothing I say can change their mind. And so I'll avoid that and keep on posting what Scripture says.

You were the one who accused me of replacement theology, of which I did not state. The Christ is the Head of one body, the church. He does not have two bodies, but one.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Im trying not to respond in kind but I realized that certain people use this as a method.They jump on those that disagree with them and try to choke out the thread. So its best to ignore those types.If people wish to discuss,as this is a discussion forum,I will discuss with either side. But when people become nasty and outraged when defending their theological view it shows that is man made and not of God. I just hope their eyes are opened. But if they will not believe Scripture nothing I say can change their mind. And so I'll avoid that and keep on posting what Scripture says.

All I am saying is the Jews were God's chosen ppl. They were cut off by their unbelief and we were grafted in by belief. Believing Jews are also grafted in by belief. Both are in the one Vine, that vine being the Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Here's a good question for calvin's peeps... do you guys ignore the Great Commission where Jesus tells His followers to take the gospel to the entire world?

I mean you'd have to if you only believe a few folks were created to be saved and everyone else was created to burn in heLL, right?

Maybe you guys should start a theme park and all it "Calvinwood"... and only let a few people in and tell everyone else that this theme park was not intended for them

Here is a good question for pelagius' people.

If you believe that it is you who is actually convincing people and it is actually people who decide their eternity, why are you here and why are you not standing on the streets days and nights trying to pursue people not to end in hell?

Go out and start saving them!!!

Or are you so called lazy pelagius? Theoretically its on us, practically... eeh, let us leave it to God?

 

[Johnny_B]

I agonised about this one for years until I realised something. God is trans-temporal, outside time, so what he has done in the past is done in the light of decisions we will freely make in the future.

If you want to think about it in terms of Dr Who (I hope everyone knows what I'm talking about) then as soon as someone accepts Jesus, God leaps in the TARDIS and goes back to predestine them for heaven.

In other words I'm not a supporter of predestination or free will, pro or anti Calvin, because as I see it both cases are exactly the same.

Now of course this sounds rather like quantum mechanics. That's because it is rather like quantum mechanics.

This leaves the question "Why doesn't God go back and fix everything?" This one took me a few years as well, then I hit 2Pet3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The way I see it is that if evil goes then free will has gone up the Swanee as well. If you can't do anything wrong you can't make any moral choices. And that means you can't be what God intends you to be.

Tricky, being God, isn't it? Even omnipotence has its problems.

(BTW this is a good example of how, if asked to choose between A and B, I'll consider C, reject D as unworkable, see the problems with F and G, then do H.)

Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls"

You really need to re-think all of this it sound like you turn the Lord of heaven and earth into a bellboy that jumps at out will and whim, that He only sees and reacts that He has no power to chose who will be in His kingdom. You need to look at the first three commandments to see how you are braking them, you have another God other that the God of Scripture, you have made Him in what fits our idea of how God is, not believing what He has reveled to us in His word. You have taken His name or nature and Him a common god of mythology.

It is by no means tricky to be God, it is tricky to make God fit your idea of what He is. You used one verse and tried to explain it, when it's about who God is, not what He is reacting to. He is not willing that any should perish, His desire is that all men come to know the knowledge of the truth. Did He change His nature to fit the fall of man? No!
He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

You've also brought up something that people thing that Reformed/Calvinist doctrine teaches when it does not. Man has a free will to chose, he choses every day, to sin. What Reformed/Calvinist teaching is, it is that man can not make a decision for Christ because he is blind and unable to discern spiritual things I Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Why can't he discern them, because he is blind II Corinthians 4:4 "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." You can go and red the context of these they are not taken out of context. How is it that man can come to know that Lord or be able to see His kingdom, John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

God had to cause man to be born again, grants that we come to Jesus and He makes us alive in Christ. I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

John 6:63-65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Ephesians 2:5, 8-9 "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved....8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

God gives us the gift of salvation and as you see it's not by anything we do at anytime, it's all God's gift to us. We need to not view a gift as the world views a gift, you see it all the time on TV or hear it on the radio. Do this and receive a free gift, it's not free and it's not a gift. It's a reward for doing whatever it is they asked or a payment for doing or participating. A gift has no strings attacked to it and if it has anything attacked to it, it is no longer a gift, because there is a work that has to be done to maintain the keeping of that so-called gift.

God's not the big busboy in the sky and eveytime there are dirty dishes on a table He runs over there to clean them up. God reacts to nothing, He acts sole by the purpose of Hill will, not by His reaction to mans will. You need to filter your idea of God through the filter of Romans 1:18-32 to see if you have not fallen into this problematic thinking of God. Here's a little taste Romans 1:25 "because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

 

[preacher4truth]

You were the one who accused me of replacement theology, of which I did not state. The Christ is the Head of one body, the church. He does not have two bodies, but one.

False accusations are the norm for kg.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No,Im sorry you're wrong.What you are talking about is Replacement Theology and that came from the Catholic church teachings,which they renounced after the Holocaust. The chosen people are still the chosen people,the church has not replaced them and the promises God made to them He will still fulfill. The Nt talks of the church and then it speaks of Israel,separately,if it was meant to the church only it would have said so. Replacement theology,which goes under several different names and is false doctrine straight from the Catholic church. We'd need another thread to discuss it,but Romans is speaking to the Jew,not to you.

Replacement theology teaches the church replaced Israel, and I have not even alluded to it, let alone, aver it. Ppl have a false idea of what the church really is. The church is not the building at the corner of Elm and Maple streets. The church is the body of the Christ, He being her Head. The Greek word translated church in english is 'ekklesia', which means 'called out ones'. Both Jews and Gentiles are 'called out from the world' into the 'ekklesia', the body of the Christ. It was this body of believers the Christ died for per Ephesians 5:25, and not the nation of Israel. Jews are being saved NOW, and will be being saved until His coming again.

Jesus told the Jews “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."[Matthew 21:43] The church never replaced Israel, God cut them off because of their unbelief and Gentiles were grafted in. Notice, it was believing Gentiles, and not the church, that was grafted in. The church, the 'ekklesia', is the body of the Christ, not the nation of Israel. That's the thrust of Paul's argument in Romans 11.