Consequences of sinning

[dcontroversal]

Stephen

The word in "en" states in the definition that it's a fixed position.

No doubt.......not to mention the view one can lose it or give it up makes Christ and Paul into a liars....

I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee

I will LOSE nothing the Father has given me, but will raise it up in the last day

I will FINISH the good work I beagan in you

Sanctified in Christ FOREVER

SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE<----what does PROMISE MEAN......

ETC....

etc...........The bible teaches eternal security, regardless of those who devalue and deny this truth..........

 

[Grace777x70]

Good point about where a person's heart is, Jesus knew the rich guy wasn't going to sell everything thus why He ask of it of the man. Surely it was a example, for this one below is also quite similier yet different outcome.

Luke 19
1And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. 2And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. 3And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. 4And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. 5And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. 6And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. 7And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Amen...one who lived by "his own keeping of the Law" was the very one who actually refused Christ -

( yet in his mind - he still "kept" the commandments and was with God in his own way of thinking )

This is a picture of the "works-righteousness" belief system which although they have a form of godliness - they deny the power and in effect - just like the rich ruler - they are denying the Lord and Master for has saved them and nullifying the very grace of God that is needed to walk by the spirit in this life.

They are exchanging grace for their own self-efforts in the flesh and trying to create and maintain their own D.I.Y self-righteousness/holiness.

Then there is Zacchaeus who knew he needed a Savior - look at His response to Christ in his life. It was a natural outflow of grace being extended to him. Seeing Christ for Himself does that to us.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Some believe sin in believers is impossible.

Some believe sin in believers only affect their eartly life already past tense being secured in Heaven. So sin deliberately has no eternal consequences.


While others believe flesh and Spirit still battle after being saved. And free will still exists which allows the temptation of the flesh and the will of the Spirit. God judges the heart and knows if the believer is following or not. Keeping on in deliberate sin, knowing your doing wrong but doing it anyways is a gamble basically making God look to be a joke.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

No doubt.......not to mention the view one can lose it or give it up makes Christ and Paul into a liars....

I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee

I will LOSE nothing the Father has given me, but will raise it up in the last day

I will FINISH the good work I beagan in you

Sanctified in Christ FOREVER

SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE<----what does PROMISE MEAN......

ETC....

etc...........The bible teaches eternal security, regardless of those who devalue and deny this truth..........

Your quite good at out of context or misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus does speak on abide in me and Paul has constant warnings and mentions 2 believers who had shipwrecked their Faith. Which means they fell away because we learn later in his writing Paul welcomes them back into the church. Then once we get past Pauls writings and when the church really started to see persecution and false teachers. The letters after paul speak a good bit of warning against falling away and against false teachers.
What does earnest agreement mean? And what is a seal? Has seals been broken in scripture?

All your scriptures are true for those who abide in the vine. So your point was what? Oh yah your pushing the last doctrine of Calvinism. OSAS but you also downgrade free will as I have seen you support unconditional election in other threads. Which makes your belief im osas more understandable.

 

[Grandpa]

Some believe sin in believers is impossible.

Some believe sin in believers only affect their eartly life already past tense being secured in Heaven. So sin deliberately has no eternal consequences.


While others believe flesh and Spirit still battle after being saved. And free will still exists which allows the temptation of the flesh and the will of the Spirit. God judges the heart and knows if the believer is following or not. Keeping on in deliberate sin, knowing your doing wrong but doing it anyways is a gamble basically making God look to be a joke.

1 John 1:7-10
[FONT=&quot]7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/FONT]

 

[gb9]

Some believe sin in believers is impossible.

Some believe sin in believers only affect their eartly life already past tense being secured in Heaven. So sin deliberately has no eternal consequences.


While others believe flesh and Spirit still battle after being saved. And free will still exists which allows the temptation of the flesh and the will of the Spirit. God judges the heart and knows if the believer is following or not. Keeping on in deliberate sin, knowing your doing wrong but doing it anyways is a gamble basically making God look to be a joke.

and who is saying that it is fine to persist in deliberate sin?? who is saying that is o.k. ??

I wish you guys would post some actual proof of these things you constantly keep saying that others say, or just stop saying it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

1 John 1:7-10
[FONT=&quot]7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/FONT]

Amen very true

 

[Roughsoul1991]

and who is saying that it is fine to persist in deliberate sin?? who is saying that is o.k. ??

I wish you guys would post some actual proof of these things you constantly keep saying that others say, or just stop saying it.

Let me ask you a question what does hebrews say on deliberate sin?

Now many time Grace uses the picture of a believer to start shooting up heroin as a image of deliberate sin and Grace then says it only will affect him earthly not eternally.

So one one side we hear dont sin but on the other we perceive that really sin on earth once your eternally secured had no eternal damage but earthly damage.

 

[dcontroversal]

Your quite good at out of context or misunderstanding of scripture. Jesus does speak on abide in me and Paul has constant warnings and mentions 2 believers who had shipwrecked their Faith. Which means they fell away because we learn later in his writing Paul welcomes them back into the church. Then once we get past Pauls writings and when the church really started to see persecution and false teachers. The letters after paul speak a good bit of warning against falling away and against false teachers.
What does earnest agreement mean? And what is a seal? Has seals been broken in scripture?

All your scriptures are true for those who abide in the vine. So your point was what? Oh yah your pushing the last doctrine of Calvinism. OSAS but you also downgrade free will as I have seen you support unconditional election in other threads. Which makes your belief im osas more understandable.

God is the one who seals.....Ecclesiastes 3:14 Whatsever GOD does is EVERLASTING.....regardless of your misguided ignorance of scripture....the bible is clear and teaches eternal security......and for the record....there is no such thing as CHURCH salvation which you seem to espouse above.....you should trust JESUS before it is too late pal.....and if it can be lost, you must do something to earn it back....more working for dogma from one you misses the mark continually.....

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The reason why he has to use this analogy is so that it fits the beliefs of osas. Which is why the analogy doesnt make sense compared to scripture.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God is the one who seals.....Ecclesiastes 3:14 Whatsever GOD does is EVERLASTING.....regardless of your misguided ignorance of scripture....the bible is clear and teaches eternal security......and for the record....there is no such thing as CHURCH salvation which you seem to espouse above.....you should trust JESUS before it is too late pal.....and if it can be lost, you must do something to earn it back....more working for dogma from one you misses the mark continually.....

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

You didn't answer the questions. Another question how do you interpret abide in the vine?

 

[gb9]

Let me ask you a question what does hebrews say on deliberate sin?

Now many time Grace uses the picture of a believer to start shooting up heroin as a image of deliberate sin and Grace then says it only will affect him earthly not eternally.

So one one side we hear dont sin but on the other we perceive that really sin on earth once your eternally secured had no eternal damage but earthly damage.

once again, we cannot help it if you and others do not perceive what is being said. that is a you problem. so, I repeat, post or reference a clear statement where someone says that a believer can sin all they want, with no eternal effect. so either give a clear example or stop saying it.

also, one should not isolate verses and build theology around them. this is how false teaching breeds and grows.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God is the one who seals.....Ecclesiastes 3:14 Whatsever GOD does is EVERLASTING.....regardless of your misguided ignorance of scripture....the bible is clear and teaches eternal security......and for the record....there is no such thing as CHURCH salvation which you seem to espouse above.....you should trust JESUS before it is too late pal.....and if it can be lost, you must do something to earn it back....more working for dogma from one you misses the mark continually.....

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Also before you bring your whole pitch fork and flame to nag about how everyone who believes differently than you is promoting works salvation. Ill stop you there. Since your disbelief in believers free will then of course people who believes in free will come across to you as works. We see relationship you see puppet. Because a relationship to you means it must be wrong because any relationship requires surrender, commitment, and obedience.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

once again, we cannot help it if you and others do not perceive what is being said. that is a you problem. so, I repeat, post or reference a clear statement where someone says that a believer can sin all they want, with no eternal effect. so either give a clear example or stop saying it.

also, one should not isolate verses and build theology around them. this is how false teaching breeds and grows.

I just did bro. Ask Grace he wont lie. He will tell you he uses that analogy all the time. But if I was you I would take your own advice. Sometimes we all must question everything we know.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

once again, we cannot help it if you and others do not perceive what is being said. that is a you problem. so, I repeat, post or reference a clear statement where someone says that a believer can sin all they want, with no eternal effect. so either give a clear example or stop saying it.

also, one should not isolate verses and build theology around them. this is how false teaching breeds and grows.

Also are you admitting that deliberate sin in a believer has possible eternal consequences?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Because we know in context the author of Hebrews was speaking to believers about deliberate sin.

Some will downgrade it and say oh he was trying to scare them while others fully deny the author speaking to believers.

 

[BeyondET]

once again, we cannot help it if you and others do not perceive what is being said. that is a you problem. so, I repeat, post or reference a clear statement where someone says that a believer can sin all they want, with no eternal effect. so either give a clear example or stop saying it.

also, one should not isolate verses and build theology around them. this is how false teaching breeds and grows.

You got a point, I don't think there are verses that says a person can sin all they want, but on the other hand are there any verses that says once a person is saved that person will never sin again in their whole life, simply put will live a sinless life from being saved forward. Jesus told a woman go and sin no more, did she not sin no more or could she have stumbled, the bible doesn't really mention afterward what she went and did.

Do you think it's possible to never sin ever after being saved?

 

[gb9]

Also are you admitting that deliberate sin in a believer has possible eternal consequences?

what I am saying, and it baffles me that folks do not get this- NOT EVERYONE WHO CLIAMS TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER IS ONE. we do not know what is truly in someone else's heart, only God knows and judges that. that is why we should not be overly judgemental.

the word Gospel means good news. preach it, folks respond to it. be a judgemental loudmouth, folks run from it. stop being the latter, start doing the former. railing against sin does not change or lead people to Christ no where near as telling them that God loves them and sent his Son to die for them. that is the Gospel. stop sinning or go to hell, while true to a point, is man-made religion.

 

[gb9]

You got a point, I don't think there are verses that says a person can sin all they want, but on the other hand are there any verses that says once a person is saved that person will never sin again in their whole life, simply put will live a sinless life from being saved forward. Jesus told a woman go and sin no more, did she not sin no more or could she have stumbled, the bible doesn't really mention afterward what she went and did.

Do you think it's possible to never sin ever after being saved?

by using the Biblical definitions of sin, sadly no, not possible. what is possible is to deceive one's self into thinking that one does not sin. and, also sadly, that is on display here everyday.

 

[samuel23]

Hi d: Been there done that. I had been a Christian for over 20 years and believed deeply that a really saved person could not be lost. I was Baptist but was visiting a charismatic church where the Pastor called it a false doctrine, I was somewhat angry and was getting my bible out to show him from scripture how wrong he was(I knew all the scriptures pertaining to that doctrine), anyway, the Lord spoke to me and said, don't try to prove him wrong just read the bible and see what it really says on that subject. I did and I came away with the understanding that the bible does indeed teach that a really saved person can become lost if they turn from Christ and never repent from turning. Jesus even taught this to the apostles, that they had to abide in the vine, that was something that they had to do, God does not do it for us. Paul was an overcomer because he KEPT THE FAITH. God will constantly encourage you to keep the faith, but God will not make you keep the faith.