Not By Works

[Ariel82]

The Holy Spirit says to stand for the truth and that is what "drives me" to post in this thread. That and to spend time with my brothers and sisters in Christ who understand that salvation is by Faith in Jesus and not works.

So that isn't what drives you?

Good to know that we are so different.
.I will save you time and just put you on ignore.

For a moment I had mistaken you as a brother in Christ. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Feel free to respond, you can have the last word, I also had a mistaken idea that we might actually be having a conversation.

Yeah the True will set you free.

 

[Ariel82]

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2 Timothy 2

8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.

14Remind them of these things, and charge them before Godb not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,c a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. 19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

20Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable,d he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servante must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will..

**** let's examine these verses.

1. How is it that when you are faithless, God is still faithful?
2. What is irrevelant babble? An example is that the resurrection is already has happened. Another is the false teaching that God will abandon you. Another is that God doesn't chastens His kids for their sins but expect them to be sinless perfectionist.

3.wood and clay are for dishonouravle use in the household of God...does that mean they aren't part of the household or that they are not as honourable?

4. How do you correct your opponents with gentleness?

5.How many people realize that Satan lays out traps to enslave people's minds to false doctrines?

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. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, .

 

[Ariel82]

I think this article explains why future sins are forgiven but why we still need to ask God for forgiveness.

If We Confess Our Sins - Grace to You with John MacArthur

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The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

Let me show you the difference:

- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.

Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.

In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you..

 

[dcontroversal]

Its repentance that leads to salvation.

Repenting here is when we place our faith in Jesus.
That is why Jesus had to go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would come.

The Holy Spirit would convict the world if it's sin and that sin being unbelief in Jesus.

When we repent of that then comes salvation, we are then in Jesus and Jesus is in us.

We are in the vine and we get our nourishment and nutrients from the vine.
That helps us grow and bear fruit.

My thoughts

Excellent points and true for sure.........just like a tree sprouts (salvation) has a period of growth and maturity and then produces....some just 1 apple, some a hand full and some the branches about break due to the abundance of fruit....Jesus is the inspector not man nor religiously set standards......

 

[dcontroversal]

You don't want to mistake "imputed" righteousness for "imparted" righteousness, as Roman Catholics do.
Was Paul pure, holy, blameless apart from the blood of Christ? Was Paul sinless?

What do you think "impute" means? Do you understand what "reckon" and "account" means?

The purpose of the gospel is to save those who BELIEVE. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Walking righteously as God's redeemed people is what we are saved FOR.

You sound like a man of experience. Has pornography been your vice? Is pride driving your belief to reject imputed righteousness?

Genuine believers are honest about sin and fully understand their complete dependency upon Christ.

Amen......I agree......!

 

[PeterJens]

Future sin forgiven

This is such a tempting belief.
If future sin is forgiven why does Paul say we have no condemnation because we walk in the
Spirit but not if we walk in the flesh.

Why did he call the corinthians to repentance over their sin?
Why were the church called to overcome and walk in victory or have the right to be in the
Kingdom taken away?

As I suspected Ariel really agrees with the rest and was faking talking about empathy, when
in reality she need security or else her lifestyle causes too much stress to cope with.

I do not know if this is spiritual contamination, but if you call the apostate as brothers, you
enter into their wicked works. As John describes,

Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
2 John 1:11

Sin is always seductive, and excusing it, the whisper in the ear. And when you start to hear
such whispers are a daily occurence, what can one conclude.

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

Now think about this. What sinful actions can you freely effect? The ones in the future.
Which is a real test of your walk in the Lord? That you resist temptation and become
a follower and overcomer.

But it is by abiding in Christ, in His word and in His love, letting it flow out to others.
What is easy is to create the feeling of security when we are always contrite, humble
servants of the King, whose name is to be forever praised.

 

[PeterJens]

John Wesley on imputed righteousness

John Wesley said that the Calvinist doctrine of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ was


“a blow to the root, the root of all holiness, all true religion…Hereby Christ is stabbed in the house of his friends, of those who make the largest professions of loving Him; the whole design of His death, namely, to destroy the work of the devil, being overthrown at a stroke. For wherever this doctrine is cordially received, it makes no place for holiness.” “The Works of the Rev John Wesley”, published in 1841, page 352.

https://biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/did-john-wesley-teach-or-deny-the-doctrine-of-the-imputed-
righteousness-of-christ-a-study-by-jesse-morrell/

What saddens me is when people deny the arguments on both sides and just condemn
the other side without understanding why they are driven to such conclusions.

It is amazing that such love that I have found in Christ and the cross could be compromised
by such sin and dishonour with no shame or guilt, but actually turned into a curse against the
righteous who honour the sermon on the mount and Christs clear commands.

For me there is no clearer sign of the spirit behind such dedication, when people with hearts
of love are called evil and deluded. But in the end the Holy Spirit works through His chosen
people and the sign of their truth is the love they have one for another. Amen, come Lord
Jesus come.

 

[PeterJens]

Wesley is truly my brother in Christ

He said that he never uses the phrase, “the imputed righteousness of Christ” because it is not scriptural and because it has done much damage, and that when he has used it, all he meant by it was that we are justified because of what Christ has done and suffered. In other words, we are justified because of Christ’s obedience in suffering and dying on the cross for our sins. But Wesley said that he denied “the imputed righteousness of Christ” in the Antinomian sense, which is the notion that Christ’s obedience to the law is transferred to our account so that we do not need to obey the law of God ourselves. Wesley certainly never taught that Christ’s obedience to the law was transferred to us, so that we are justified by God in light of our account being perfect. That is justification by works, but Wesley taught justification by grace. Wesley taught that our faith was imputed as righteousness.

This is exactly the line of thinking I have gone down and represented on cc
over the last 2 years. What a hero, what a man of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Wesley is truly my brother in Christ

He said that he never uses the phrase, “the imputed righteousness of Christ” because it is not scriptural and because it has done much damage, and that when he has used it, all he meant by it was that we are justified because of what Christ has done and suffered. In other words, we are justified because of Christ’s obedience in suffering and dying on the cross for our sins. But Wesley said that he denied “the imputed righteousness of Christ” in the Antinomian sense, which is the notion that Christ’s obedience to the law is transferred to our account so that we do not need to obey the law of God ourselves. Wesley certainly never taught that Christ’s obedience to the law was transferred to us, so that we are justified by God in light of our account being perfect. That is justification by works, but Wesley taught justification by grace. Wesley taught that our faith was imputed as righteousness.

This is exactly the line of thinking I have gone down and represented on cc
over the last 2 years. What a hero, what a man of God.

so..in other words you parrot a deceiver....good for you...see how that works out in the end....Me....the bible is clear....Christ's righteousness has been applied by faith to those who actually believe.....!

 

[JIMBO43]

Godly sorrow does lead to repentance...godly sorrow is a work God does upon our hearts.


I have a headache so gonna skip long posts unless I see my name.

why would my comment salvation leads to repentance give you a headache when john the baptist clearly states repent for the kingdom is near ?

 

[Ariel82]

why would my comment salvation leads to repentance give you a headache when john the baptist clearly states repent for the kingdom is near ?

No I had a headache before reading your comment. Its better now though.

 

[PeterJens]

Does God see us or the Blood ?

The Antinomian doctrine that Christ’s works of the law are transferred to the account of the believer, so that they are justified by perfect works of the law, and they do not need to repent of their sins and live holy lives, and that they are righteous in God’s eyes even while they are sinning, has done great damage and hurt to Church.


“The theological doctrine of ‘imputed righteousness’ has been grossly distorted in our day. We are told that God looks at us through the blood of Christ and see’s us as righteous, regardless of our actual state… Let’s stop kidding ourselves. God sees us exactly the way we are. If we are living in obedience, He sees it. If we are living selfish, unholy lives, we can be sure he sees that too.” George Otis Jr. (The God They Never Knew, Published by Mott Media, p. 40)

I find it interesting how this mirrors the arguments we have been having.

 

[Ariel82]

so..in other words you parrot a deceiver....good for you...see how that works out in the end....Me....the bible is clear....Christ's righteousness has been applied by faith to those who actually believe.....!

Wait a sec. I like Wesley and agree with most of what I have read from him that he actually preached in public.

Folks claim to have private letters written by him but some directly contradict what he preached in public so it makes me question.

Not even gonna read what you are responding to. Not worth getting another headache about it.

Can you tell me what we are talking about?

 

[Ariel82]

Amen......I agree......!

Imputed versus imparted righteousness is huge.

 

[dcontroversal]

Wait a sec. I like Wesley and agree with most of what I have read from him that he actually preached in public.

Folks claim to have private letters written by him but some directly contradict what he preached in public so it makes me question.

Not even gonna read what you are responding to. Not worth getting another headache about it.

Can you tell me what we are talking about?

No offence, but he draws from Wesley and then states the imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work and JESUS is not enough.....so.............if that is what that guy teaches he is a heretick.....and all who parrot that parrot a satanic lie....

 

[dcontroversal]

Imputed versus imparted righteousness is huge.

Put to our account is clear.....David describes it accurately and is referenced in Romans 4

I can for sure read.....

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[Ariel82]

Fyi. Wesley was against works salvation..

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 6 - The Righteousness Of Faith

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12. Again: The covenant of works, in order to man's continuance in the favour of God, in his knowledge and love, in holiness and happiness, required of perfect man a perfect and uninterrupted obedience to every point of the law of God. Whereas, the covenant of grace, in order to man's recovery of the favour and the life of God, requires only faith; living faith in Him who, through God, justifies him that obeyed not.

13. Yet, again: The covenant of works required of Adam and all his children, to pay the price themselves, in consideration of which they were to receive all the future blessings of God. But, in the covenant of grace, seeing we have nothing to pay, God "frankly forgives us all:" Provided only, that we believe in Him who hath paid the price for us; who hath given himself a "Propitiation for our sins, for the sins of the whole world.".

 

[Ariel82]

No offence, but he draws from Wesley and then states the imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work and JESUS is not enough.....so.............if that is what that guy teaches he is a heretick.....and all who parrot that parrot a satanic lie....

Yeah and Peterjens is a great person to trust when you want a summary of what others believe and teaches, right?

 

[Ariel82]

He says if people want to be justified by the law or be in the old covenant then they must be sinless....

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The righteousness, then, which is of the law, speaketh on this wise: "Thou, O man of God, stand fast in love, in the image of God wherein thou art made. If thou wilt remain in life, keep the commandments, which are now written in thy heart. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart. Love, as thyself, every soul that he hath made. Desire nothing but God. Aim at God in every thought, in every word and work. Swerve not, in one motion of body or soul, from him, thy mark, and the prize of thy high calling; and let all that is in thee praise his holy name, every power and faculty of thy soul, in every kind, in every degree, and at every moment of thine existence. `This do, and thou shalt live:' Thy light shall shine, thy love shall flame more and more, till thou art received up into the house of God in the heavens, to reign with him for ever and ever.".

However Wesley says that we should seek the righteousness given to us by our faith in Jesus.

 

[Ariel82]

Wesley teaches that believers have the imputed righteousness of Christ

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 20 - The Lord Our Righteousness

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II. But when is it that any of us may truly say, "the Lord our righteousness" In other words, when is it that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and in what sense is it imputed

1. Look through all the world, and all the men therein are either believers or unbelievers. The first thing, then, which admits of no dispute among reasonable men is this: To all believers the righteousness of Christ is imputed; to unbelievers it is not.

But when is it imputed When they believe. In that very hour the righteousness of Christ is theirs. It is imputed to every one that believes, as soon as he believes: Faith and the righteousness of Christ are inseparable. For if he believes according to Scripture, he believes in the righteousness of Christ. There is no true faith, that is, justifying faith, which hath not the righteousness of Christ for its object..