Sabbath

[Grandpa]

Are you so without understanding that you can not read simple English? My reason for keeping the Sabbath comes from outside the law given to Moses. The law Given to Moses does indeed help but it is not the reason. What you are doing is akin to me telling you not to follow Jesus because the law points to Him and instructs us concerning Him. You must apply your logic across the board and you will see it falls short. Concerning the 7th day Sabbath the law gives instruction but the reality is not something to come but something that has come in Gen 2. But I can see why you are dodging Gen 2, it does not fit your view. by the way try reading the 4th commandment as it says and it will be clear that it is a reference to creation.

I find it interesting that until hear we have been dealing with things openly and honestly but now you seem to avoid the texts given. why is that? maybe you don't think you are avoiding them. But you are not dealing with them.

As for the notion that I have to prove it from the New, this is also a demonstration of misunderstanding.

Where does Paul and Jesus etc tell us to gain our teachings/Doctrines our understanding of truth?

Answer: The Old Testament. I could past so many letters from the new that show this to be the case. Jesus said "it is written" "have you not read" "how readest thou" Paul said to study the scriptures and that they (the OT) are our instruction for life. Yes you must take the vail off to see it, Yes its about Jesus.

The new does not replace the old, Its a bunch of testimonies and teachings based on the Old. The very authority used for the teachings in the new is found in the multiple quotes and references to the Old Testament.

So it is rather up to you to demonstrate that the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow or gone away from the OT.

You can teach that circumcision would pass when the messiah comes from he Old testament, In fact Paul did just that.

You can teach that the law was given because the Jews did not have faith form the OT, Paul did just that.

You can teach that the sacrifices and the priesthood and the tabernacle itself would be useless once messiah comes from the OT, Paul did just that.

But do you know what you can't do? You can't find anywhere in the OT where the finished work of creation is changed. You can't find anywhere where the 7th Day Sabbath will change, In fact the opposite it true, You can find prophecies in the OT that show the Sabbath continues and applies for Gentiles in the OT. You can find where it prophecies that the 7th day Sabbath will apply still after Jesus death and resurrection in the OT.

There are Sabbaths aside from the 7th day Sabbath found in the OT which you can also show from the OT that were only shadows until the Messiah should come. And you can shew that from the OT.

Hence the New testament is nothing more than people testifying that Jesus is the one that the OT spoke of and they can demonstrate that from the OT. It is also instruction on how to live and they can Demonstrate it from the OT. Because the OT is there reference which they learned was about Jesus and thus could read it rightly without changing it or spiritualizing it away.

So if you are going to follow scripture then you have to do as it directs, If you make one witness disagree with another then you have made your own doctrine a new doctrine that is not found in either the NT or the OT.

I didn't avoid Genesis 2.

Genesis 2 doesn't command you to observe a saturday sabbath.

SO you must have gotten that idea from somewhere else. You got it from the Law of Moses.

You aren't trying to use Genesis 2 as a reason. You are using Genesis 2 as an excuse. Big difference.


You didn't know that or you just can't be honest about it?


And now we go round and round in circles about Christians working at the law... I think I've been on the merry go round maybe one too many times.

BTW Genesis 2 fits my view just fine.

Genesis 2:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 4:10-11
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Its about rest. Not a specific day of the week. The Lord didn't say come to me and I will give you a saturday observance. Hebrews 4 doesn't say 'if they shall observe my saturday ritual'. Acts 15 doesn't list a saturday observance as one of the necessary things for Christians.

Hebrews 7:18-19
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I don't know why this is so clear to me and so ambiguous to you.[/FONT]

 

[JohnTalmid]

No. Im afraid we got ourselves another wannabe jew. Just stop it man this is corny. You cannot keep the sabbath in 2017 in the modern western world. You cannot. Try shutting down all industry within your city walls and convincing them all to keep the sabbath.
And if they don't well you know what to do dontcha? Oh yeah btw: Yahshua as a name does not exist in the old testament, see unlike the role-players I can actually read it, so lets stop using that. How about this: Jesus, Yeshua.

Stop putting a burden on people that you aint carrying yourself.

Have you forgotten that anyone who is in Messiah is not condemned by him? He is baptized by faith and trusts in the Holy One to make his faith perfect. He's not teaching the law of sin and death folks. Here is what the law of sin and death looks like today. To judge outward appearance of the believers in Messiah in stead of finding out about the LAW OF THE MOST HIGH which is the Word. You think this word I speak about is any other than the Word made flesh? Im not ignoring the renewed covenant just not calling it new because I know that it is I and thieving Messiah who are made new.

 

[gotime]

I didn't avoid Genesis . Ok I apologise, From my perspective it looks like you are avoiding it but from yours you are not. sometimes easy to apply your own view to another view and thus get it wrong.

Genesis 2 doesn't command you to observe a saturday sabbath. You are correct, it does not command anything. Let me explain the reason I use this verse form my perspective. For me its not about a command at all. Here is how I approach that verse, I read it just as it reads, That God rested from his finished work of creation and this took place on the 7th day. because of this God blessed that Day and made that day holy thus set apart for Holy use. That is what it says. SO now I come along and believe God is the creator and that he is also saviour through Jesus. So I become a follower of God. For me its simple, If he made it holy and blessed it then it is holy and blessed, As His follower who loves Him I can't ignore this fact and thus I see the day as holy and blessed, I can't treat it as any other day because it is not as any other day. SO while there is no command I am simply acknowledging it as what it is, Holy and blessed. By the way the word sanctified and blessed if you look into what that means will heavily hint at a continuation.

SO you must have gotten that idea from somewhere else. You got it from the Law of Moses, The Law of Moses as I have already said did point me to Gen 2 yes. The law concerning the Sabbath does exactly that as it is written:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Thus the law helped me and pointed out Gen 2 for me as important. That is the purpose of the law to point out sin and then lead us to Christ. Christ the creator and redeemer. The 7th day Sabbath points to Jesus as creator, The feast Sabbaths point to Jesus as Saviour.



You aren't trying to use Genesis 2 as a reason. You are using Genesis 2 as an excuse. Big differenc. That is what you think I am doing but it is in error. as explained above.


You didn't know that or you just can't be honest about it You can't know this brother. The best you can do is accept my reasons or reject them. But you do not know the intent of my heart.


And now we go round and round in circles about Christians working at the law... I think I've been on the merry go round maybe one too many times.

BTW Genesis 2 fits my view just fine.

Genesis 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 4:10-11

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Its about rest. Not a specific day of the week. The Lord didn't say come to me and I will give you a saturday observance. Hebrews 4 doesn't say 'if they shall observe my saturday ritual'. Acts 15 doesn't list a saturday observance as one of the necessary things for Christians.

Hebrews 7:18-19

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I don't know why this is so clear to me and so ambiguous to you.

OK in regards to the latter half where you show that it lines up with your view. I question it. Do you think that because the word rest is used that you can just put those texts together as if they were talking about the same thing?

You would first have to demonstrate that what Jesus was saying was directly linked to the 7th day Sabbath which you can't. I am sure you think it does but you can't show it in scripture. Context tells what the subject is you can't just join things because they use the word rest or rested. Thus context/the subject or issue being addressed must be taken into account.

So you would need to provide evidence that you have not just randomly attached verses together. That you have proof that they reference the same issue.

 

[gotime]

ps I can deal with some of those texts if you wish me to. But we have already shown Matthew 11:28 has no reference to the 7th Day Sabbath at all.

I thought we had already agreed on Corinthians also. I already know the Old is about Jesus.

 

[gotime]

By the way Grandpa, I am not writing these things to accuse or put down your way of thinking, I apologise if I have offended in any way. My replies are supposed to help you see where I am coming from better. My challenges are to help me better grasp your position to see if I have missed something. and to demonstrate where my head is at concerning what you have written. SO you can see where I struggle with your points.

 

[Grandpa]

ps I can deal with some of those texts if you wish me to. But we have already shown Matthew 11:28 has no reference to the 7th Day Sabbath at all.

Wow, really?

What does sabbath mean? (rest)

What were the people doing every saturday when they were "keeping" the sabbath? (resting from their work)


What were they practicing for? (the rest we would receive from our Saviour)


Galatians 3:10-11
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

There is only one way to receive rest from your work at the Law. That is by coming to Christ by faith. After we have come to Christ what are Christians told?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If I just said, 'ok good luck with your work at the law' don't you see that would be a curse to you?

And everyone else who thinks its ok to keep working at their understanding of the law.


[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

Wow, really?

What does sabbath mean? (rest)Yes

What were the people doing every saturday when they were "keeping" the sabbath? (resting from their work)Yes


What were they practicing for? (the rest we would receive from our Saviour) Your personal meaning. A meaning that does come from the feast Sabbaths but we are not talking about those.


Galatians 3:10-11
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

There is only one way to receive rest from your work at the Law. That is by coming to Christ by faith. After we have come to Christ what are Christians told?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If I just said, 'ok good luck with your work at the law' don't you see that would be a curse to you?

And everyone else who thinks its ok to keep working at their understanding of the law.

I am surprised that you see the rest aspect but ignore the contextual application when its used in different places.

Like I have said we must take the plain meaning of the text, So when we read the command in which you say they were resting from their work it says:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Note it is already holy. when? verse 11/Gen 2.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Rest from physical work, lesson learned in Exodus 16.
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Notice it is Gods Sabbath not theirs they are simply asked to remember it and keep it holy.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Notice why, Because God set it apart as Holy and blessed it because he rested on it. So its Gods Sabbath that we are to remember and we enter His Sabbath rest. Notice it is a day because that is what He blessed and made holy, a day.

There is no hint of pointing forward it is very very clearly pointing backwards to creation/Gen 2. Back to an already finished work. How is that not plain to you? How have you learned scripture in such a way that the plain meaning is rejected?

Genesis 2 shows us this truth as it is what the commandment pointed to notice:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Firsts note this is about a finished work not a work to come.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Notice He rested form his work of creation just like the law said.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Notice He blessed it and set it aside as holy. Because of an already finished work.

So it is most clear that the 7th day Sabbath is not about resting form sin or death but about resting in the finished work of God in creation.

We know this by taking in the context:

Was sin in the world when God made the 7th day Sabbath holy? No
Was death in the world? No, no sin no death.
Was salvation needed when the 7th day was blessed? No.

The very context of the 7th day Sabbath screams creation and in no way hints at salvation as its point of being. You are literally bringing your own interpretations to it.

Is rest there yes, but for a totally different reason and purpose than the rest in Christ we get in salvation.

In fact its the imagery of rest in the Sabbath that makes it plain why God also then after sin added Extra Sabbaths aside from the 7th day Sabbath so that they could shadow the Redemptive aspect of resting in Jesus.

 

[Grandpa]

The reason you work at the law and try to do what it says is because it points back to creation?

Its just a weird coincidence that sabbath means rest and the Lord Jesus says come to me and I will give you rest? And it is a further coincidence that salvation is not by works of the law but that is also a gift? And then another coincidence that we are told that the dietary laws, holy days and sabbath days are all a shadow but the body is Christ?


"But I don't work at the law for salvation"

That is absolutely true. Working at the law opposes salvation. It opposes Grace. It opposes Christianity.

Why? Because the Lord Jesus gives us Rest.

Galatians 2:21 [FONT=&quot]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

The reason you work at the law and try to do what it says is because it points back to creation. That is how you see it but that is subjective to your views. I don't work at the law I simply believe that the day is holy because the bible tells me it is. What happens is my actions because of that belief naturally line up with the law. The same way your actions line up with the law on thou shalt not kill. I don't go accusing you of working at the law do I. You must be more consistent with your own arguments.

Its just a weird coincidence that sabbath means rest and the Lord Jesus says come to me and I will give you rest? And it is a further coincidence that salvation is not by works of the law but that is also a gift? And then another coincidence that we are told that the dietary laws, holy days and sabbath days are all a shadow but the body is Christ. Not a coincidence at all, its a word. Rest often rhymes with rest just a fact. What you have failed to do is prove that the rests being spoken of are exactly the same context. Is it coincidence that you ignore the context to fit them together? Do you match every instance of rest mentioned in the bible and make it the same thing? No because the word is the same the context gives the meaning and application. For example as shown Jesus was talking about rest from sin. The Sabbath is about rest in Gods creation. Big difference, Yet you continue as shown to ignore the context that is clear and put your own spin on it.

"But I don't work at the law for salvation"

That is absolutely true. Working at the law opposes salvation. It opposes Grace. It opposes Christianity.

Why? Because the Lord Jesus gives us Rest. We have already agreed on this. The problem is that you have now ignored this fact that we both agree on this and are trying to twist what I say to make it seem I live by the law of God and not by Grace. Why don't you try and work out how it is that I can keep the Sabbath and still believe what you do about salvation by grace and not law or works.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Sorry for the late reply, been busy.

My righteousness comes not from law but from God in Christ Jesus. that is not the issue. But the law is a witness to that fact as it is written:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Those who have the law on their heart which is the new covenant naturally do the things in the law:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Its not rocket science its simple, Jesus changes us from sin to righteous by his own righteousness. The law is righteous and spiritual even though you try to say its carnal. But the reality is The commandments are not carnal but the carnal heart hates them and tries to change them as it is written:

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It seems here that you fit the bill, you claim that you are not subject to the law do you not?

My mind was carnal but now in Christ Spiritual and the law is written on my heart. It is not hard as John said it is not for those who have Jesus.

Yet your mind still can not read scripture as it simply says. Your mind twists what Gen 2 says and Exodus 20 says and takes away the plain meaning seen clearly by any who simply read it. This is the work of a carnal mind excusing itself from righteousness.

Don't you know that Jesus mission was to get rid of sin not the law?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

very clear he came to take away our sins. sin is breaking the law. its real simple friend, either sin/break the law or let Jesus take away your sin.

For the sake of illustration I will change the word sin to the definition of sin given by John here to make it clear.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This verse tells us what sin is, it is breaking the law.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our law breaking; and in him is no law breaking.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him does not break the law: whosoever breaks the law hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that breaks the law is of the devil; for the devil broke the law from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not break the law; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot break the law, because he is born of God.

You will notice that all I have done is word it different but the meaning has not changed a bit, its another way of saying the same thing based on Johns own definition of sin.

Those who break the law show that the law is not written on their hearts and they are still carnal thus they are not subject to the law.

But Jesus breaks us free by softening our heard hearts. taking out the stone heart and giving us a heart of flesh.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

notice the result of this working of God, it says when this heart is changed: "you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

so the result of Jesus softening our heart and giving us the Spirit is that we "walk" Our lives are lived in His "statutes" laws. and we "do them"

That is freedom from sin, from the carnal nature. That is salvation by a powerful God in Christ. that is why Paul agreed when he said as stated above:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another



The work of the law on the heart is manifest by people doing by nature the very things the law says. Its impossible for the carnal heart to do this but the saved person it is easy for they have a new heart and are a new creature created in Christ for Good works.

Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.




That word "grevous" mean not hard. like I said only hard for a carnal person because the carnal mind is not subject to the law and indeed can not be as Paul said.

It could not be any plainer if you actually give some thought to the scriptures above.

The law does not save, Jesus saves. Form what? Sin. Sin is breaking the law. Only those who naturally keep it show the work of Gods law written on the heart. they are saved from sin and the devil.

 

[Zen]

God says to do no work on the sabbath day. It's for resting and relaxing.

Why did a Roman emperor persecute Christians to change the sabbath to the first day of the week? Sun worship.

You can worship God every day, that is the first commandment.

Exodus 16:29
See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Also, it starts on 'Friday' (our calendar) night, which is actually Saturday (God's calendar) night.

Night (darkness) comes before day.

You don't need candles or anything else but you can use them if it makes you feel holier, as well as wearing nice clean clothes and staying offline and reading scripture or whatever else.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I just started reading this thread from the beginning tonight found it very interesting although I have a little headache now ;-)

 

[LoveGodForever]

So the Lord's Day is not Sunday after all? The Jesus says...

"For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matt 12:8)

God bless you all.

 

[beta]

So the Lord's Day is not Sunday after all? The Jesus says...

"For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matt 12:8)

God bless you all.

The Sabbath day always has been different from sunday the day of the 'sun-god. Even thousands of years ago Israel went after Baal the sungod 2Kgs ch 17 , leaving the commandments of God....and do so to this day.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I guess Sunday has its origin in sun worship and pagan festivals like Christmas and Easter... I don't understand how all these things crept into Christianity though. This is a puzzle but its happened.

 

[beta]

I guess Sunday has its origin in sun worship and pagan festivals like Christmas and Easter... I don't understand how all these things crept into Christianity though. This is a puzzle but its happened.

It certainly has happened and taken 'hold'. There are some refs as to how it could have happened and it is understandable why. People who tried to accept the Sabbath were severely 'persecuted as indeed we still are today...some christians get pleasure in calling you a 'judaizer just for walking with Jesus 24/7.
Remember all the original Sabbath-keeping Disciples Jesus 'handpicked died at the hands of these persecutors and it must have scared people....so they settled for sunday as a worship day of their own with the threat of violence from the roman church and help of Constantine if they did not accept sunday.
Yes an EVIL world then, but today persecution is less physical...they just kill with words.

 

[LoveGodForever]

It certainly has happened and taken 'hold'. There are some refs as to how it could have happened and it is understandable why. People who tried to accept the Sabbath were severely 'persecuted as indeed we still are today...some christians get pleasure in calling you a 'judaizer just for walking with Jesus 24/7.
Remember all the original Sabbath-keeping Disciples Jesus 'handpicked died at the hands of these persecutors and it must have scared people....so they settled for sunday as a worship day of their own with the threat of violence from the roman church and help of Constantine if they did not accept sunday.
Yes an EVIL world then, but today persecution is less physical...they just kill with words.

Interesting that you say this. Did you know that the term judaizer has its origin from pagan Rome when they outlawed the new Christian religion in Rome when they were trying to make pagan sun-worship the official religion of the land? This term was latter adopted by the Roman Catholic Church when they were persecuting the so called heretics that were Sabbath keepers in the early Church. The term judaizer has it's origin from pagan persecution of the early Church (those wanting to follow Jesus)

God bless you

 

[Grace777x70]

Question: "Who were the Judaizers?"

Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.”

The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.

The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.

Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16:

“A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.

Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).

The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html


I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning.

They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now. Mostly these are from their own backgrounds in the fact that they are Jewish to begin with.

This group has excellent teachings on how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.

 

[Muzungu256]

why would it be so difficult to keep sabbath???????? its one of the tencommandments and if others are in force why not this??????????

 

[Grace777x70]

why would it be so difficult to keep sabbath???????? its one of the tencommandments and if others are in force why not this??????????

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is our true Sabbath rest. Resting in what He has done is keeping the Sabbath in the New Covenant of grace. We don't live by the 10 commandments - we live by the life of Christ in us now. The love of Christ is us will not lead us to murder people.


If Paul is telling us the truth when he says the Christian is not under the Law, has died to the Law, is released from the Law.

( Which I do believe he is telling us the truth ). - Then how is our relationship to be to the law in regards to the "good" that is in the ten commandments from the Old Covenant?

Live "from" the 10 promises instead of "by" the 10 commandments because we are now in Christ in the New Covenant. It's in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God that we live by now.

1) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will have no need for other gods because you have a loving Father who loves you deeply and unconditionally.

2) When you know Me ( Jesus ), the idols in life will fade like mist in the sun.

3) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will never stop speaking My name to establish freedom - My name is Jesus.

4) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will cease from your own works and rely totally on what I have already done for you.

5) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will be honored as fathers and mothers to nations.

6) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will restore life.

7) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will experience deep authentic relationships which you will treasure.

8) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will be established in abundance and generosity.

9) When you know Me ( Jesus ), you will be My witness.

10) When you know Me ( Jesus ), your love which is My love flowing in and through you for your neighbor will bring restoration to this world.

The 10 commandments are now 10 promises fulfilled in us through relationship with our loving Father because we are in Christ.

 

[Zen]

Exodus 16:29
See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.