Not By Works

[FranC]

The english is bad, thats why we need the greek, It is a more pure language,

I could not fathom reading the english bible and trying to understand parts without going to the greek

I do too sometimes EG. But VERY rarely.
YLT is good enough for most stuff.

Believe me, the translators knew what they were doing.

There are some words in the KJV that are incorrect. The correct words are listed down at the bottom of the page.
I don't care for that version (sorry KJV lovers).

I like the NASB and find it to be the closest to the Greek.

I'm telling you EG, the concepts come through. I'll bet you really now this...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well EG...

It's true.
We are no longer under THE LAW
but under GRACE

What does that mean?

That we are not to obey the moral Law?

no

what it means is the law can not longer condemn us, because we are under grace not law. It means christ fulfilled the law on our behalf (where we failed, he had victory)

Gal 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.[SUP]" [/SUP][SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

That is grace, that is redemption, that is eternal life.



It also means, when we repent, and admit our sin has caused us to be seperated from God, we have a desire to change and do what he wills because he loved us, We earn to love others

It means we do what God said, Love God and our neighbor, in this we fulfill the law.

Not that we obey the law, and by this we will learn how to be obedient and love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do too sometimes EG. But VERY rarely.
YLT is good enough for most stuff.

Believe me, the translators knew what they were doing.

There are some words in the KJV that are incorrect. The correct words are listed down at the bottom of the page.
I don't care for that version (sorry KJV lovers).

I like the NASB and find it to be the closest to the Greek.

I'm telling you EG, the concepts come through. I'll bet you really now this...

I have read KJV, NLT, ESV, NASB, NIV and i can tell you for a fat, there are parts we will never understand completely by just reading the english words.

the english is a very poor language.

 

[Meggido]

I agree!

So, read it again and tell me if you REALLY think it's speaking about sin?

It says that IF WE FOLLOW THESE things, we will never STUMBLE. (you said it means sin)

SO... WE NEVER SIN??????????????????

it's speaking about holding on to our faith so we don't lose it and our salvation...

the context of the verses do not support losing salvation, because you cannot lose your salvation, can you fall away? yes, but that is not the discussion.

The whole passage is below and does not speak one bit of losing salvation or obtaining it by works.

1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; [SUP]3 [/SUP]seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; [SUP]11 [/SUP]for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[BillG]

Lido di Camaior.

West of Pisa and a bit North.
It's 20 minutes from home.
It has umbrellas, a restaurant, and all that stuff. You know how it is.
Beaches in Italy are private. But it's nice, I guess.

NOT like Jones Beach in New York.

I went to Pisa.

I remember walking down a road, it was a market.
I turned right and there in front of me was the leaning tower of Pisa.

My jaw dropped. It was much bigger than I imagined.
I was fortunate in that I was able to walk up it about a month before it was closed off.

You do realise if ever I go back to Italy I'm gonna gate crash you.
And I will want champagne

 

[FranC]

no

what it means is the law can not longer condemn us, because we are under grace not law. It means christ fulfilled the law on our behalf (where we failed, he had victory)

Gal 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.[SUP]" [/SUP][SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

That is grace, that is redemption, that is eternal life.



It also means, when we repent, and admit our sin has caused us to be seperated from God, we have a desire to change and do what he wills because he loved us, We earn to love others

It means we do what God said, Love God and our neighbor, in this we fulfill the law.

Not that we obey the law, and by this we will learn how to be obedient and love.

OK.

But obeying also teaches us.
Even Airel said that parents teach their kids.
This helps kids to become smater and to do more of what the parents would want them to do.

So, we're saved by faith.
Ephesians 2:8

But after salvation, or justification, we MUST continue with SANCTIFICATION.

The internal change in us IS TO HAPPEN. We can't just walk away from this change that Jesus does expect.

Can't you agree with this:

WE ARE REQUIRED to OBEY the Law, the MORAL LAW,the commandments, the two commandments of Jesus COVER ALL OF THE OTHERS.

If we're to be a part of the New Covenant, we must be IN the New Covenant.

Do you believe we CANNOT walk away from it?

 

[FranC]

I went to Pisa.

I remember walking down a road, it was a market.
I turned right and there in front of me was the leaning tower of Pisa.

My jaw dropped. It was much bigger than I imagined.
I was fortunate in that I was able to walk up it about a month before it was closed off.

You do realise if ever I go back to Italy I'm gonna gate crash you.
And I will want champagne

Champagne it is my friend.

How about some Brunello?

Who's going to make it first, you or you know who???

 

[FranC]

I went to Pisa.

I remember walking down a road, it was a market.
I turned right and there in front of me was the leaning tower of Pisa.

My jaw dropped. It was much bigger than I imagined.
I was fortunate in that I was able to walk up it about a month before it was closed off.

You do realise if ever I go back to Italy I'm gonna gate crash you.
And I will want champagne

P.S.

Yeah. I know just what you're talking about.
It's spectacular.

I'm going to a baptism of a baby of a friend that lives near the Pisa Airport.
She might have it at the Baptistry, the round bldg by the tower.

That would be cool.

The tower is open again, BTW.

 

[Meggido]

I agree!

So, read it again and tell me if you REALLY think it's speaking about sin?

It says that IF WE FOLLOW THESE things, we will never STUMBLE. (you said it means sin)

SO... WE NEVER SIN??????????????????

it's speaking about holding on to our faith so we don't lose it and our salvation...

the context of the verses do not support losing salvation, because you cannot lose your salvation, can you fall away? yes, but that is not the discussion.

The whole passage is below and does not speak one bit of losing salvation or obtaining it by works.

1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; [SUP]3 [/SUP]seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; [SUP]11 [/SUP]for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's not gossip, Fran.. It's the truth. You flip flop more than a fish desperate to escape the fishing line hook..

I'm back.

You can all stop gossiping about me now.

 

[FranC]

I have read KJV, NLT, ESV, NASB, NIV and i can tell you for a fat, there are parts we will never understand completely by just reading the english words.

the english is a very poor language.

I agree. Ditto for the Hebrew too then.

The Greek helps to expound on the meaning.
it could be very helpful if one is doing some serious studying. I doubt most do this.

It's good if you do this.
I dislike when Greek is use to persuade someone that they are wrong.

I also have bibles in Italian, 2 or 3 versions.
I truly find little difference in the meanings. They're just more "rich".
Take the word LOVE. So many different types of LOVE.

But let's say someone only understands the word LOVE.

It doesn't make all that much difference, does it??
Love is Love. No matter what type it is.

 

[BillG]

P.S.

Yeah. I know just what you're talking about.
It's spectacular.

I'm going to a baptism of a baby of a friend that lives near the Pisa Airport.
She might have it at the Baptistry, the round bldg by the tower.

That would be cool.

The tower is open again, BTW.

I don't think my knees would accommodate all those steps.

I also went to Elba and visited Napoleans house.
Loved that as well.

Wanted to visit Rome but wasn't able to do it.

I actually went to Italy with Oak Hall.
That was a Christian company that organised holidays all round the world.
I went on the one for Christian singles.

 

[FranC]

It's not gossip, Fran.. It's the truth. You flip flop more than a fish desperate to escape the fishing line hook..

When You spread a bad word about someone, it's gossip.

Christians should not gossip.

 

[FranC]

I don't think my knees would accommodate all those steps.

I also went to Elba and visited Napoleans house.
Loved that as well.

Wanted to visit Rome but wasn't able to do it.

I actually went to Italy with Oak Hall.
That was a Christian company that organised holidays all round the world.
I went on the one for Christian singles.

I have news for you...
Napoleon had houses all over the place! And he slept all over! Everywhere you go they tell you" Napoleon slept here".
Boy, that guy got around!!

Are your knees not good?

 

[BillG]

I have news for you...
Napoleon had houses all over the place! And he slept all over! Everywhere you go they tell you" Napoleon slept here".
Boy, that guy got around!!

Are your knees not good?

So I spent 755,000 lire when I didn't need to do so

My knees are arthritic as a result of 4 cruciate ligament repairs and cartilage removal ops in my early 20's.

During my 20's I spent 2 years off work as a result.

I am not a candidate for knee replacements as I am too young.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK.

But obeying also teaches us.
Even Airel said that parents teach their kids.
This helps kids to become smater and to do more of what the parents would want them to do.

So, we're saved by faith.
Ephesians 2:8

But after salvation, or justification, we MUST continue with SANCTIFICATION.

see, this is where I think the disconnect and the difference between us comes.

You say we must continue, I say we will continue, As that article said, We will from that point forward always be in a state of christian growth (sanctification) until the day we die.

When you say we must, you put self effort into the equation, and make salvation based on that effort. Which means your preaching works, and rejecting Grace, Because grace and works are like water and oil, they can not be mixed together..

The internal change in us IS TO HAPPEN. We can't just walk away from this change that Jesus does expect.

You can not walk away from it, even if you tried, Like God did to Jonah, He will continue to put things in your path that prevent you from doing that. It is a thing called chastening. As paul said, if we do nto experience chastening, we are not true children.

For those of us who have been trained by Gods chastening, We will tell you how hard it is to just walk away and do whatever we want, We do not belong to ourselves now. We made a commitment, and god is not just going to allow his children to go around and do what they want without some form of discipline..

You can try to walk away from your parents all you want, Your still their child. and they still have the right to discipline you until you no longer need their support.

For humans, that is usually around 18 to 20 (although some I think should stay longer) (I think in the OT it was around 13 or so.

For Christians, that is when we get to heaven.

Can't you agree with this:

WE ARE REQUIRED to OBEY the Law, the MORAL LAW,the commandments, the two commandments of Jesus COVER ALL OF THE OTHERS.

If we're to be a part of the New Covenant, we must be IN the New Covenant.

Do you believe we CANNOT walk away from it?

Required or what? We lose salvation? if thats true, then salvation is by works not grace, and God must lower his standard or we would all be doomed, Again, You still admit you sin, so you fail to live up to Gods standard. and would be condemned where you stand.

Required as a child of God to grow, become sanctified, to become more christlike, to not need chastened by God. Yes, then we would agree.

And no, I believe like John said, a child of God can not sin, because they have been born of God, a person who walks away has never been a part of the church, if they were part, they would never have left.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

P.S.

Yeah. I know just what you're talking about.
It's spectacular.

I'm going to a baptism of a baby of a friend that lives near the Pisa Airport.
She might have it at the Baptistry, the round bldg by the tower.

That would be cool.

The tower is open again, BTW.

I hope to make it there one day, But I have so many places I want to see, and am running out of years to see them..lol

 

[BillG]

Champagne it is my friend.

How about some Brunello?

Who's going to make it first, you or you know who???

I don't care.

Never heard of Brunello but if it's champagne I'll give the bottle a go.

Mind you I'd settle for Moet all the time, along with lobster, prawns and mussels.

What you gonna order?

I'm paying

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. Ditto for the Hebrew too then.

The Greek helps to expound on the meaning.
it could be very helpful if one is doing some serious studying. I doubt most do this.

It's good if you do this.
I dislike when Greek is use to persuade someone that they are wrong.

I also have bibles in Italian, 2 or 3 versions.
I truly find little difference in the meanings. They're just more "rich".
Take the word LOVE. So many different types of LOVE.

But let's say someone only understands the word LOVE.

It doesn't make all that much difference, does it??
Love is Love. No matter what type it is.

No, actually there are different types of love, Human love or brotherly love (plileo) is not as deep or meaningful or strong as a truely sacrificial kind of love like God gave to us. (agapeo)

When Jesus asks peter 3 times if he loves him, Read in the greek, He does not use the same greek word all three times, It becomes much more meaningful in the greek, the english misses a very deep principle..

and I agree, hebrew also.. In deep study,, or on a questionable passage,, many times the origional can solve the problem passage.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So I spent 755,000 lire when I didn't need to do so

My knees are arthritic as a result of 4 cruciate ligament repairs and cartilage removal ops in my early 20's.

During my 20's I spent 2 years off work as a result.

I am not a candidate for knee replacements as I am too young.

that sux bro.. I feel for ya, Mine are going bad,, I could not imagine if I was alot younger..