Not By Works

mailmandan · Jun 24, 2017

These are not conditions for becoming born of God, but confirmation for being born of God in 1 John 3:7-10. Notice in these verses how children of the devil are contrasted with children of God:

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous; just as children of the devil do not practice sin in order to become children of the devil but BECAUSE they are children of the devil.

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

Katy-follower said:

This is why I don't like labels. If Calvin believed the sky is red then would I be accused of also believing this? Would I be associated with everything he believes, by wrongful assumption? In the same way, if I agree with what Dcon says on something, would that then make me a Dcon-ist?

Honestly did not know anything about Calvin until a thread I read on here. I don't follow men and their views. But if I believe there will be a rapture does that make me a follower of Darby, just because he believed the same thing? I've been called a follower of him before, but I still don't know what he actually believes. I don't research these men and their beliefs, because I'm a follower of Jesus. These men were not crucified for me. As the scriptures say... 1 Cor 1:10-17.

I just read the scriptures, I don't just copy and paste what these men believe.

You make assumptions about what I believe. When did I ever say that God plays people like chess pieces and selects those He wants to throw into hell? As the scriptures say "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) and that "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

The problem arises when one doesn't acknowledge that those who have been born of the Spirit are changed and don't then become atheists that reject God. Scripture makes clear that "many will come out from among us and they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us" (1 John 2). Only those who have had that inner change will endure. Sure, some believers might drift into the world/backslide, but God calls them back. I'm actually a prodigal (daughter), and He brought me back in a dramatic way. Wasn't pleasant either. I plan on sharing it in a blog post soon

... but I can tell you that even during my backsliding I never stopped believing. I often had people approach me asking me if I were a christian. A colleague even back then could see by my nature that I was a believer and he just knew I was his spiritual sister.

How can you say that eternal security is demonic? You call a promise of God demonic?

That's really worrying that you believe this. When I was saved at 11 years old I instantly had that assurance, I just knew I had eternal life. Didn't read views of men back then.

I can tell you're very passionate about scripture and what you believe. Also that you're in beautiful Italy and choosing to share on the forums here rather than be on the beach too. I have great memories from Firenze and remember staying at the hotel "Sant' Anna in Camprena" which used to be a monastery. It's near Pienza, in the province of Siena. A beautiful part of Italy and hope to get back there someday. I have so many memories there

.... and I love Italian wine, particularly Valpolicella wine, which comes from the Veneto area.

It's a shame there is division on so many things, particularly God's promises. That scripture I shared was God's word, not mine, I just highlighted words He used, to make the message clear.

I wonder if you're catholic because you asked a question MANY pages back (lol

) which is a very common question I've only ever heard asked by two particular groups of people..... universalists and catholics. And clearly you're not universalist from what I've read in your posts. Or maybe you used to be Catholic and now are part of a church that has embraced catholic teachings, so you're not completely rid of all of their teachings.

Can you share your born again experience?... how you believe a person is born again.

Thanks Fran

She has....faith, then work your rear end off and hope you get the prize at the end of the day...like buying a lottery ticket and hoping you win when they draw the numbers....her view is a working for gospel what is not of grace...you must EARN your salvation and then KEEP your salvation by your own merit....and you are more powerful than God because you can give it up or lose it.....NO hope in that rigmarole....

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

The reason why we say that Fran - is because we are being honest and taking the religion that say that true Christians that are born from above lose salvation and we come to the end of this false religion - and it is our loving Father throwing His beloved children in hell.

Where do God's children go then - if they don't meet all the "requirements" of this false doctrine - is the a purgatory of some sort like in the Catholic religion?

That is what is really being said - if people would be even 1/2 honest.

This is without a doubt the worst ungodly false doctrine that was ever put into the un-renewed mind of the natural man by our enemy. It has caused more harm to the body of Christ and keep us being spiritual babies and has created this works-based - works-righteousness false doctrine that nullifies the very grace of God that is needed for us to walk in this world by the life of Christ in us manifesting His fruit.

Jesus is not a liar - He said that the Holy Spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16 - the false doctrine says - no, the Spirit leaves you.

You are free to believe whatever you want but people will stand against this false doctrine of our loving Father throwing His beloved children that the Lord Jesus Christ bought with His blood but sends them into hell - which is exactly what this false doctrine of people losing salvation in Christ is really saying.

Amen.....faith plus works to gain salvation = the pit......

Jesus was clear......those who boast of works as their means will be cast.....that door does not lead to the Kingdom.......end of story!

NOT by works of RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have DONE.....

Ariel82 · Jun 24, 2017

Notice these verses only apply to people who have ALREADY BEEN SAVED not in order to be saved? (cutting and pasting a ton of verses....not always the best means of communication)

Revelation 21:1-4 ESV

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Matthew 16:19 ESV

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Acts 28:31 ESV /

Proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance.

Ariel82 · Jun 24, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Not true. She believes God gives the gift of salvation but like the world...the "gift" has strings attached.

Therefore it seems that the concept of agape love is missing, but a God will reveal even that.

mailmandan · Jun 24, 2017

FranC said:

I often hear Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and other works salvationists quote these passages of scripture in their efforts to try and prove that salvation is by works.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the condition or means of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose the condition of our heart.

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

FranC said:

This is hilarious....the false and heretical pseudo gospel of works for started with Cain.......so..in essence you are peddling the same fraudulent message he did....and Paul was clear...faith plus works to gain entrance = the PIT and JESUS was clear...those who peddle works as their means (which you do) = the pit......seems your foundation lacks any lime or rebar in the concrete.....!

eternally-gratefull · Jun 24, 2017

Ariel82 said:

then it is not a gift, a gift has no strings attached,

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

posthuman said:

this only *leads* to licentiousness if sin flows out of a persons heart, and their mind seeks to justify wickedness - so that they abuse the grace of God as privilege in order to pursue lust.

your analysis rests on denying all the power of salvation, as though the Spirit does not renew, and the Lord fails to keep His promise to put in the believer a new heart. it assumes that salvation is effected by saying some majick words and/or performing a ritual; that is, that it is a perfunctory matter of having ticked some box and not an actual supernatural intervention in a man, by spirit through soul to the works of the hand and the words of the mouth.

the criticism that 'the security of salvation and the complete atonement for all sin by one sacrifice leads to licentiousness' is formed on the basis of an ineffective & meaningless redemption which has nowhere in it the work and hand of God. licentiousness is only the result if the heart remains uncircumcised and the Lord abandons the ones who have put their trust in Him: but the circumcision of the heart is not ((and cannot be)) done by human hands, so denying that God will work His will in those who have relied on Him to do so is to deny that there is any salvation whatsoever.

it is impossible that the Law and the oblations of human priesthood can cleanse the conscience ((Hebrews 7:18-19, 9:9, 10:1-4, etc))

in freedom wicked works are expressed only if the conscience is not cleansed; if the Lord indeed keeps His covenant that He has declared, to remove the sin of the whole land in a single hour, to put in His people a new heart, to bring back again all who turn to Him, indeed to cause to turn whoever hopes in Him - then freedom produces fruit, not rot.

[HR][/HR]
does God redeem or not? is He mighty to save, or impotent?
this questions settles the matter.

Make no mistake......he has said and or made two posts that prove he is not of God....the following statements prove who leads him...

a. The cross is not enough
b. The imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work

BOTH as anti-Christian as can be and not from GOD or God's Holy Spirit.....the source seems obvious...!

mailmandan · Jun 24, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen! A gift is either freely accepted or rejected. If you hand someone a gift at Christmas time, they have two options. Accept the free gift or else reject it. If you have to work for it then it's not a gift.

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

FranC said:

More ignorance here.....oblivious of the verb tense that WAS INSPIRED.......maybe you can resort back to your foundation and go pay the priest off to be prayed in or forgive you.....I mean after all....you believe you can earn your way which negates grace and allows for you to boast right?

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2017

Ariel82 said:

One who believes you have to work to keep it or maintain it does not believe it is a gift...regardless of what she says...

notmyown · Jun 24, 2017

dcontroversal said:

/side note:

Jude has a little to say about going the way of Cain.

i can't believe this discussion is still happening.

posthuman · Jun 24, 2017

FranC said:

you're affirming what i wrote - don't you even know it?

that isn't an "either/or" question you are asking. answer my question in your heart, which is yes or no: does God redeem?

eternally-gratefull · Jun 24, 2017

mailmandan said:

right, it would be a Downpayment for something in return (this case your obedience) its like a person comes up and says I will give you a 1000 dollars if you do this, then if you do not carry out your agreement they take the 1000 bucks back,

basically your getting your reward, wage, payment or whatever before the work is done, not after, it is still a works/merit based system

Grace777x70 · Jun 24, 2017

mailmandan said:

Amen....

Works-based righteousness says to people things that are like this - "You must breath in order to be a human being". Life ( which is what we have in Christ ) says - we breath because we are alive now not in order to show we are human beings.

We are "being who we are."

The life of Christ is what is being described in John's epistle.

it doesn't take long for the gospel to be distorted. It only took a year for the Galatians to be bewitched" into believing another gospel after Paul preached Christ to them.

Hear - even in the presence of John and James and the other apostles - the gospel was being watered down by those that said "we must do things in order to be and remain saved now that we are in Christ." It's called - the "doing of the law".

Acts 21:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

[SUP]21 [/SUP] And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

mailmandan · Jun 24, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Amen! Works-based righteousness says that our faith produces works in order to become a living faith instead of BECAUSE it's a living faith; which is like saying that a tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree instead of BECAUSE it's a living tree.

PeterJens · Jun 24, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Let us just stop and look at the words

Workers - those who do something, partake in it, spread it
of inquity - evil deeds, sin, that which leads to death and judgement

So a worker of inquity is a sinner.

The failure of anyone is through unresolved sin.

The hard hearted say, the sin I do does not matter because I am forgiven.
They hold to this like it is their belief, that God will forgive their rebellion even
when they have no desire to stop rebelling, because God is so generous.

That is universalism.

This argument is so old, but the attempt to take every negative word, like sinner
and redefine it makes it all meaningless.

So a sinner is one who does not put their faith in Jesus, not one who sins, because
all sin is now forgiven, so the only real sin, is believing or not believing in Christ.

So if someone comes up to you and stabs you through the heart, they are righteous
pure and holy in Christ, and forgiven going to heaven even though they are riddled with
sin and deception, God is the best friend and they worship him.

Only people who are totally compromised and deceived believe this junk. And one day
when some nutcase does this to them, they will happily die in the knowledge they are going
to paradise. Imagine what heaven is like populated with sinners like this.

And this all comes from the root of one is mystically born in God perfect, pure and holy except
one is not, it is only the flesh sinning which will be taken away.

Now what did Jesus say? If you hand causes you to sin you will be thrown into Hell.

I now know why He put those words there. Because He knew today some nutcases would
invent dualism, a perfect spirit in a doomed body, and claim they knew heaven and reality.

Not a hope. Thank you Lord for your eternal word. The Lord never meant people to cut off
their hands, but to realise you have to be pure and holy and take ownership of who you are,
and realise God knows what He is doing, so struggle and face it. You can win.

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:4

PeterJens · Jun 24, 2017

The sky is blue

It is amazing how clear scripture is seen in error to justify sinners as saints while
still bound in sin and not even resolving their issues.

They will read a scripture and say, it says I can sin, not confess it, or repent, but
God has forgiven me, and I am heaven bound, what a gift, I am so grateful.

Jesus plainly says you have to bear the fruit of the spirit, the fruit that comes from
Him, in a changed heart and a changed focus.

Now it is obvious some hold the theology and have the Holy Spirit active in their
lives and live a different spiritual reality than the theology while others are truly
bound in sin, and have no shame or desire to walk otherwise.

But so it has always been.

So recognise these people and realise there is no point engaging with them but
heed Pauls desires to mark them and have nothing to do with them.

Do not even eat with such people.
1 cor 5:11

eternally-gratefull · Jun 24, 2017

mailmandan said:

Yes, backwards thinking. It's all about self! Even though they deny it

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