"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Seventh Day Adventists outright reject Colossians 2:16-17. They have spent a lot of effort creating their fabricated explanation concerning it. The only possible interpretation is that either 1) all of the elements mentioned including the weekly Sabbath, New Moons, and annual festivals are in effect or 2) none of them are. I know 1) isn't true because of the language of shadows which is used in Hebrews 10:1-2 to refer to the sacrificial law. That eliminates the Torah observers reasoning that all apply. That leaves option 2.

So the Seventh Day Adventist argues that sabbaton doesn't refer to the weekly Sabbath but the word is only used conclusively to refer to the weekly Sabbath or week in general. For instance, Mia ton sabbaton means "first of week" or Sunday. So sabbaton has a weekly context. Additionally, the structure of Paul's sentence is:

Annual, monthly, weekly

festival, New Moon, weekly Sabbath

This orderly presentation is exhibited in other Old Testament Scriptures.

Additionally Gentiles were NEVER instructed to keep the Sabbath and Sabbath breaks NT was never mentioned in the letters to the Gentiles as a sin. And, we know there were NT slaves in the church who had no option other than to do what their masters allowed them and it isn't likely taking a Sabbath was one of those things.

These are all questions I had to ask myself as a Sabbathkeeper. The Sabbathkeeper position is not coherent and those who hold it typically have a twisted view of church history and are conspiracy theory driven. I have been called a Jesuit multiple times due to my remarks concerning the Sabbath by Judaizers. It cracks me up that Judaizers think I'm on the Popes payroll.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

you all must know, that after a while, when certain 'sick-people' are allowed to continue
to post such offence things, especially about 'dead-people' and then rant and rave about
absolutely nothing profitable, you really have to wonder what the purpose of this site is?

we have so enjoyed our time here, especially meeting so many with so many of their own
perceptions of what they are learning as they are growing in our Holy Saviour's ways,,,

people like; blue, tourist', joi, willie, lynn, breno, etc...you all know who we up-hold and agree with:
we could go on and on about all of those that we Love so very much -
bottom line, allow your Saviour His blessing to believe Him when He gives you a 'hint' and run with it,.
it is an Holy Gift, not given to many...

believe in yourself as He believes in you and live your lives as He has Commanded...

This guy cracks me up. He keeps claiming I am mentally disturbed and that "elders" in the forums should take me aside and correct me. One, stay off my threads if they bother you. Two, there's not a lot of people older than me here unfortunately and this isn't a church. Three, heresy isn't eliminated by age else the oldest heretic would be immune from being challenged and would rule the conversations. Four, we don't know how old anyone here really is. Five, this is an active recruiting ground for Seventh Day Adventists. Gotime has bragged to me about people he has convinced to keep the Sabbath here.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman,

My friend you miss the point of the earlier posts. TORAH is much more then your narrow interpretation. It is very clear from post 35 with references from WIKI and a Jewish website. These references give the same definitions that the word "TORAH" has a much broader context then your meaning. You should look it up again.

"TORAH" (Hebrew) called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses and also contain the laws of Moses especially from Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy as outlined in earlier posts in relation to the Sanctuary laws, ceremonial laws, festival laws, sacrificial laws, civil laws and health laws.

This is why I was trying to help you before when you were trying to claim the Law of God is the Law of Moses its not and never has been. It was the Law of God, written by God, spoken by God to the people and given by God. Moses records the events leading up to why God gave His Law in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The central theme of all these books is the fall of mankind from the Law of God and the plan of salvation.

Re-read the earlier posts but I know you will not because it destroys the whole foundation of your argument trying to call the Law of God the Law of Moses. Just the very meaning of the word TORAH destroys the foundation that your trying to build to say God's Laws are no longer binding on Christians. I am not really interested in following video links and man made teachings that do not follow God's Word.

Here is an interesting scripture I was thinking of earlier today that might help some here. I am sharing it with you because it relates to Sunday observance in place of God's 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath which is the 4th commandment in God's Law Ex 20:811. Can you tell me it's meaning of this passage?

MARK 7
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curses father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do anything for his father or his mother; 13, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things you do.

I have only shared God's Word with you throughout this whole thread. Do you believe God's Word? Do you love Jesus? God's Sheep heat His Voice...

PS you provided many opinions but still have not answered any of my thread posts and the scriptures contained in them?

God bless you.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

If anyone is sincerely concerned with the Sabbath issue after being subjected to Sabbathkeeper rhetoric I highly suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It addresses the Seventh Day Adventist claims concerning Colossians 2:16-17. The portion on this is written by Old Testament scholar Jerry Gladson. There is a Seventh Day Adventist on the forums aggressively spamming threads advertising his own website claiming Sabbathbreaking will be the Mark of the Beast. I grew up in a family with a similar mentality and am aggressively against that sort of paranoid, uninformed mentality.

Anyways it is a PDF file and is 8.00. This is not my website. I am simply providing the link as I am concerned about Judaizer influences here.

https://www.ratzlaf.com/Sabbath-in-Christ-eBook-in-pdf-file-sicepdf.htm

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

If anyone is sincerely concerned with the Sabbath issue after being subjected to Sabbathkeeper rhetoric I highly suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It addresses the Seventh Day Adventist claims concerning Colossians 2:16-17. The portion on this is written by Old Testament scholar Jerry Gladson. There is a Seventh Day Adventist on the forums aggressively spamming threads advertising his own website claiming Sabbathbreaking will be the Mark of the Beast. I grew up in a family with a similar mentality and am aggressively against that sort of paranoid, uninformed mentality.

Anyways it is a PDF file and is 8.00. This is not my website. I am simply providing the link as I am concerned about Judaizer influences here.

Hi Sparkman

It seems your not interested in answering any of my posts and the Word of God contained in those posts you ignore, but you feel that you are best to direct the readers attention to other writers interpretation of the Word of God instead of the Bible itself? Would you be better off asking people to study God's Word for themselves rather then pointing them to someone else s interpretation of God's Word? Did you know in the new covenant God wants to be our teacher?

It seems clear that this thread has never had any intention about sharing God's Word together with anyone. It has simply been about trying to promote your own belief and nothing further. When someone challenges your belief with scripture and you cannot defend your position, you cry spamming spamming then try and point people to other man made interpretations of God's Word. You know I have only been sharing God's Word with you so why don't you believe it?

I did ask you earlier do you believe God? and I asked you Do you love Jesus? Also there has been many other questions you have not answered.

Here are some other interesting passages of scripture for you to think about. Do you know what they mean?

"For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (2Pet 2:20-22)"But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:27)
Well to be honest this thread has been a little disappointing and a waste of time as I thought people like to share God's Word together with each other. Maybe there are other threads that love sharing God's Word and show the love of Jesus.

God bless you all

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman,

My friend you miss the point of the earlier posts. TORAH is much more then your narrow interpretation. It is very clear from post 35 with references from WIKI and a Jewish website. These references give the same definitions that the word "TORAH" has a much broader context then your meaning. You should look it up again.

"TORAH" (Hebrew) called "Pentateuch from the Greek" is the first five books of the Bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

These are also called the book of Moses as they were written by Moses and also contain the laws of Moses especially from Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy as outlined in earlier posts in relation to the Sanctuary laws, ceremonial laws, festival laws, sacrificial laws, civil laws and health laws.

This is why I was trying to help you before when you were trying to claim the Law of God is the Law of Moses its not and never has been. It was the Law of God, written by God, spoken by God to the people and given by God. Moses records the events leading up to why God gave His Law in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The central theme of all these books is the fall of mankind from the Law of God and the plan of salvation.

Re-read the earlier posts but I know you will not because it destroys the whole foundation of your argument trying to call the Law of God the Law of Moses. Just the very meaning of the word TORAH destroys the foundation that your trying to build to say God's Laws are no longer binding on Christians. I am not really interested in following video links and man made teachings that do not follow God's Word.

Here is an interesting scripture I was thinking of earlier today that might help some here. I am sharing it with you because it relates to Sunday observance in place of God's 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath which is the 4th commandment in God's Law Ex 20:811. Can you tell me it's meaning of this passage?

MARK 7
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? 6 He answered and said unto them, well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curses father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do anything for his father or his mother; 13, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things you do.

I have only shared God's Word with you throughout this whole thread. Do you believe God's Word? Do you love Jesus? God's Sheep heat His Voice...

PS you provided many opinions but still have not answered any of my thread posts and the scriptures contained in them?

God bless you.

Your claim is incoherent.

Do you think Joshua wrote the entire "Book of the Covenant" on stone? Read Joshua 8:31 where the phrase"Law of Moses" is used to describe the Ten Commandments.

Joshua 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses....

Additionally II Corinthians 3 clearly identifies the Ten Commandments and the entire Mosaic Law.

Besides that, if you claim the Book of the Covenant is inapplicable but the Ten Commandments as a whole are applicable, then you have an issue because there are many things in the Book of the Covenant that reflect enduring moral principles.

Additionally you claim clean meat laws are applicable. Where do you get those?

So your claims are incoherent.


You simply reject what I have said and claim I am not producing Scripture.

By the way it IS against the rules to promote your website so I suggest you remove it from your posts or I will continue to complain loudly about it. This is not a Seventh Say Adventist recruiting ground.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I know the claims of Sabbathkeepers.

If you don't keep the Sabbath, you don't love Christ is usually one of their first lines. Christians obey the commandments that apply to THEM and not the ancient nation of Israel. Sabbath was one of the two signs of the Mosaic Covenant along with physical circumcision and I am not a party to that Covenant. And your equation of COMMANDMENTS=TEN COMMANDMENTS is bogus as the commandments are all of Christ's commandments to his followers.

Additionally I learn from teachers within the Church that the Holy Spirit leads as well as directly through the Holy Spirit so quit claiming I am following man's traditions or other men. The reality is that you are a Seventh Day Adventist parrot as I see traces of their teaching in your rhetoric. The reality is that I started off as a Judaizer and rejected it so I am capable of changing. I don't even hold the exact views as my fellowship.

Concerning my use of references rather than exact verses perhaps I assume too much about your general level of understanding about Scripture. I am not willing to invest the time to feed you with a bottle especially since I know Judaizers are mostly about trying to teach their false doctrines rather than genuine interactions. And the other forum participants have already mentioned that you aren't responsive so it's not worth the investment.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Your claim is incoherent. Do you think Joshua wrote the entire "Book of the Covenant" on stone? Read Joshua 8:31 where the phrase"Law of Moses" is used to describe the Ten Commandments.
Joshua 8:32And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses....

Why is it that you feel I need to answer your questions, but you do not have to answer any of my questions and scriptures or posts that I provide in this thread?

I have never said to you that the Books of Moses do not describe God's 10 Commandments Law. I stated they are God's Laws, made by God himself, written by God on tables of stone, spoken by God and given by God to His people. The books of Moses describe God's Laws (please re-read post 44). The only way that we know about God's Law today is because they are written in the Books written written by Moses. The Torah provides the context to the fall of mankind, The giving of God's law by the creator and the plan of salvation . "The Ark of the Covenant of the Lord" in verse 33 that you left out however is referring to God's Law while verse 32 is the description of God's Law written in the Book of Moses. The description of God's Law comes from the Book of Moses and is sometimes referred to as the law of Moses because they are written in the book as with all the other laws discussed earlier. Scripture clearly shows however that God's Law was given by God himself (not invented by Moses), written by God on tables of stone (Ex 31:18; 32:16), spoken by God (Ex 20:1-18) and placed in the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 10:5). While the Book of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was written by Moses (Ex 24:4; Deut 31:9) in a book and placed as a companion to the Law of God as to why it was given and placed in the side of the Ark of the Covenant (Deut 31:26).

Texts
30 Then Joshua built an altar unto the LORD God of Israel in mount Ebal, 31 As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel. 33 And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.

Additionally II Corinthians 3 clearly identifies the Ten Commandments and the entire Mosaic Law.
Besides that, if you claim the Book of the Covenant is inapplicable but the Ten Commandments as a whole are applicable, then you have an issue because there are many things in the Book of the Covenant that reflect enduring moral principles.
Additionally you claim clean meat laws are applicable. Where do you get those? So your claims are incoherent. You simply reject what I have said and claim I am not producing Scripture. By the way it IS against the rules to promote your website so I suggest you remove it from your posts or I will continue to complain loudly about it. This is not a Seventh Say Adventist recruiting ground.

2Corinthians Chapter 3 is talking about the new covenant. Do you know what the new covenant is? I get the feeling from reading your post that you do not know what 2Corinthians is talking about the New Covanant. The new covenant is God's Laws written on the heart spoken more about in Hebrews 8:10-12 but has its origin in the Old Testament from Jeremiah 31:33-34

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:33-34; Heb 8:10-12).

This is why Jesus was saying to those professing to follow Him...."But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." and again..."But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication's, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man (Matt 15:18-20). The new covenant is God writing His laws in our hearts as we have complete dependence and faith in God's Word to do what His Word says it will do. And this is why Jesus says to His followers.... "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). It is only by loving God and our fellow man that we can follow Jesus not by the works of trying to keep Gods Law in our own strength.

My friend we cannot just cherry pick the Word of God the suit out beliefs. Remember what Jesus says... Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God are we to live (Matt 4:4)

I am probably wasting my time here so I will leave all the scriptures, questions and posts I have written in your thread for you to consider. Although it is quite disappointing you haven't replied to anything I have written to date but expect me to reply to you.

Oh and btw I have never promoted any religion, church or any such thing at all in CC only pointing people to the Word of God. The website is an outreach project with the same mindset. If you make those claims you obviously have not read the content in the website which is an outreach project for those that do not know Jesus based on the prophecies of the last days.

God bless you

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hello Sparkman,

This will possibly be my last post here as you have an agenda I suspect and are clearly not interested in sharing God's Word. Such a shame really. I have shown you courtesy and shared God's Word with you and answered all your posts and questions but you have not answered mine so I think this is an unfruitful discussion. Our opinions do not really matter. I will just answer your claims below with scripture its up to you if you believe Gods Word or not. It is between you and God.

I know the claims of Sabbathkeepers. If you don't keep the Sabbath, you don't love Christ is usually one of their first lines. Christians obey the commandments that apply to THEM and not the ancient nation of Israel. Sabbath was one of the two signs of the Mosaic Covenant along with physical circumcision and I am not a party to that Covenant. And your equation of COMMANDMENTS=TEN COMMANDMENTS is bogus as the commandments are all of Christ's commandments to his followers.

"Jesus says.. If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb 8:10-12)

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:29)

Additionally I learn from teachers within the Church that the Holy Spirit leads as well as directly through the Holy Spirit so quit claiming I am following man's traditions or other men. The reality is that you are a Seventh Day Adventist parrot as I see traces of their teaching in your rhetoric. The reality is that I started off as a Judaizer and rejected it so I am capable of changing. I don't even hold the exact views as my fellowship.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." (Acts 5:32)

Concerning my use of references rather than exact verses perhaps I assume too much about your general level of understanding about Scripture. I am not willing to invest the time to feed you with a bottle especially since I know Judaizers are mostly about trying to teach their false doctrines rather than genuine interactions. And the other forum participants have already mentioned that you aren't responsive so it's not worth the investment.

"For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (2Pet 2:20-22)

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deception of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2Thess 2:9-12)

That's probably enough for me as I think I am wasting my time here now.

God bless you my friend

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

PS. My turn, please reconcile your belief with the descriptions in God's Word of who God's people are ......

GOD’S LAST DAY PEOPLE THAT RECEIVE HIS PROTECTION

“Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus”

Note: There is too many bible verses to list here that describe who God’s people are throughout the complete Word of God. Therefore I am only listing versus from the book of Revelations and some of the versus found in the New Testament as to keep going is pointless. The Word of God clearly identifies who God’s people are from the Book of Revelations and the New Testament so let’s see what God has to say. No need for any interpretations as God’s Word speaks for itself although take note of Rev 12:17 and 19:12.

THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS

1. “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus” (Rev 12:17)

2. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:12)

3. “Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Rev 22:14)

4. “Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus.” (Rev 14:12)

NEW TESTAMENT

5. “And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. “ (1John 3:3)
6. “Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.“ (1John 3:4)
7. “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” (1John 3:4)
9. “Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.” (1John 3:5)
10. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1John 3:7)
11. “He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1John 3:8)

12. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1John 3:9)
13. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1John 3:10)

14. “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.” (1John 5:2)
15. “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” (1John 5:3)

16. “And this is love that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.” (2John 1:6)

17. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to
fulfil.” (Matt 5:17)
18. “For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matt 5:18)
19. “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:19)

20. “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Matt 5:27-28)

21. “And he said unto him, Why call me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:17)

22. “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)

23. “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

24. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)
25. “For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.” (James 2:11)
26. “So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12)
27. “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoices against judgment.” (James 2:13)
28. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” (James 2:14)
29. “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,” (James 2:15)
30. “And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled,” (James 2:16)
31. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)
32. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)

33. “You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)
34. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)

35. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1John 2:3)
36. “He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1John 2:4)
37. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Heb 10:26)

38. “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Heb 10:27)
39. “In times of this ignorance God winks at; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:” (Acts 17:30)
40. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. "(Heb 10:26)
41. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." (Heb 8:10-12; Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27)
42. "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
43. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)
44. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

Now obviously we cannot do all of the above in our own strength as we are all sinners and before we come to Jesus this is all we can possibly do. However, it is the Law of God that is our school master the shows us that we are all sinners and in need of salvation from sin and that the wages of sin is death. The Law of God leads us to the foot of the cross where we can behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world! It is here, as we have complete dependence on the Word of God, and by Faith (believing what God says) simply cling to the promises of God, that forgiveness is claimed.

It is by continuing in the Word of God by complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it will do that allows Jesus to work in us so that we can follow him and by Faith Keep all of His commandments because He alone has written His Laws in our Heart (new covenant).

Now lets look at it from your thinking of God's Law being done away.... If there is no Law anymore there is no knowledge of sin because sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4). If there is no knowledge of sin there is no need of a Saviour. If there is no need of a Saviour there is no salvation. The person is simply lost because God's Word tells us "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12). Hope this helps those that love God's Word and want to follow Jesus. God's Word clearly describe who His people are. They are the ones that follow Jesus and reveal His love to the World.

"Here is the patience of the saints, here are those that keep the commandment of God and the Faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12). To Him be the Glory forever and ever Amen. God's Sheep hear His Voice.....

God bless you all

 

[gotime]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17 make days and meats a non-isssue and the attempt to claim Commandments = TEN COMMANDMENTS or LAW is faulty. You KNOW nomos does not equal Ten Commandments exclusively.

No one keeps all of Torah so "Torah observers" are making false claims.

SDAs define the Law as the Ten Commandments but reach into the Book of the Covenant to claim it is a sin to eat unclean meat. Additionally they claim drinking any alcohol is sin but where do they get that from? Sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments according to them so where does that fit?

A Seventh Day Adventist on this site claims it's blasphemous to claim Jesus drank wine. Hilarious. Next thing you know he will claim eating meat arouses lust. His prophetess believed that. And don't eat ketchup either...or spices. Or don't eat vegetables and fruit in the same meal. And coffee isn't allowed either.

And neither is cheese. It's really bad for you.

And certain races of mankind reflect animal-like appearances, and vice versa, because men bred with animals before the flood (amalgamation).

Ellen G. White taught all of this.

And it's ok to abort your offspring because they aren't living beings until they take their first breath. Your friendly Seventh Day Adventist health care facility is glad to do that for you. As long as it meets man's legal requirements.

Ellen G. White DIDN'T teach this because she wasn't dumb enough, or immoral enough, to do that. But the Seventh Day Adventist organization is.


But worship God on a different day and you're a sinner. Right. Hilarious.

And you as a Seventh Day Adventist pastor turn a blind eye to the abortion nonsense. You have told me in effect it's up to the woman and her doctor. I couldn't do that. God is going to hold pastors accountable for their part in those murders if they played any role in encouraging them.

Ok thank you, So you can't do it and I knew you would not be able to because its not there. You try to take one witness/NT and make it disagree with the first witness/OT which neither Jesus nor the apostles did. They backed their claims with a thus saith the Lord which was the OT at the time, you can't do that yet you hold to your personal opinions. I can't accept that.

No disrespect intended, you are a nice enough bloke, Just I expect actual evidence from the word of God before I will accept it. and as you have none I can not accept you view.

 

[garee]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

My friend you miss the point of the earlier posts. TORAH is much more then your narrow interpretation. It is very clear from post 35 with references from WIKI and a Jewish website. These references give the same definitions that the word "TORAH" has a much broader context then your meaning. You should look it up again.

Its the main goal of the father of lies to brodden the authrotiy of scripture/prophecy ,the word of God ...not the word of men

The word of God is no broader than what he has revealed as the same spirit of faith according as it is written... by the finger (will) of God and not the finger (will) of Moses.

Yes all of scripture is God’s interpretation not the private interpretation of Moses sent by God or any other apostle. The apostle Moses like the apostle Abraham ,David, Job… etc are used as types and shadows of God not seen Its not the law of Moses as if the perfect law of God’s thought came from Moses own mind as a will.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

Looking to broaden the authority of God after a law of the fathers as oral commands of men as to te meaning of the portion of scripture you offered in Mark 7.or Mathew 15.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? It becomafter no man?es whos tradition as a law .that of men or of God and

according to the tradition of the elders = the law of the fathers (commandments of men)

Tradition of the body of precepts, especially . ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence. The same error the Catholics made. abiding in the “law of the fathers” making the Law of our Father in heaven without effect.. It’s why Christ called that kind of law of the fathers a brood of vipers.(false prophets)

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Ok thank you, So you can't do it and I knew you would not be able to because its not there. You try to take one witness/NT and make it disagree with the first witness/OT which neither Jesus nor the apostles did. They backed their claims with a thus saith the Lord which was the OT at the time, you can't do that yet you hold to your personal opinions. I can't accept that.

No disrespect intended, you are a nice enough bloke, Just I expect actual evidence from the word of God before I will accept it. and as you have none I can not accept you view.

Regardless of the Sabbath issue, I hope you and all Seventh Day Adventists address the issue of abortion within your organization, and that you don't fall under God's judgment for this inconsistency. I believe that those who have facilitated this abomination know that they are committing murder of innocents.

Days and meats are nothing. Nothing. Romans 14 is plain about that, and Colossians 2:16-17 cannot be read with the SDA slant. You know what sabbaton means. You know it has a weekly context, and is not used decisively in reference to festivals in the NT. You would have to go to the Septuagint to make that argument, and even then it would be faulty because of the annual, monthly, weekly ordering which is exhibited in the OT.

Again I recommend to readers that they buy the book by Dale Ratzlaff called "Sabbath in Christ". Jesus is our Sabbath. He is what the day pointed to..redemptive rest in Him. Read Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 3-4 in light of this. Study it carefully. Jesus and the life of faith in Him is the "Rest of God" that the Sabbath pointed to, as a type...along with other types mentioned in Hebrews 3-4.

In the final analysis, though, God deals with people. I pray for the elect, that they would not remain in deception and that God will lead them, even if they hold some false teaching for a while.

It should be noted that my thread was not on Seventh Day Adventists but since they wanted to insert themselves into the discussion, I'm fine to point out their inconsistencies, especially with regards to abortion as it's a massive abomination.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

If anyone is sincerely concerned with the Sabbath issue after being subjected to Sabbathkeeper rhetoric I highly suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff. It addresses the Seventh Day Adventist claims concerning Colossians 2:16-17. The portion on this is written by Old Testament scholar Jerry Gladson. There is a Seventh Day Adventist on the forums aggressively spamming threads advertising his own website claiming Sabbathbreaking will be the Mark of the Beast. I grew up in a family with a similar mentality and am aggressively against that sort of paranoid, uninformed mentality.

Anyways it is a PDF file and is 8.00. This is not my website. I am simply providing the link as I am concerned about Judaizer influences here.

https://www.ratzlaf.com/Sabbath-in-Christ-eBook-in-pdf-file-sicepdf.htm

I have one point of disagreement with the author, Dale Ratzlaff. His view is that Jesus broke the Sabbath, in regards to John 5. In a sense I agree, but not with his explanation.

I don't think Jesus AS A MAN broke the Sabbath, but since Jesus is both God (YHVH) and man, he couldn't help break the Sabbath because as YHVH he works CONTINUALLY. Jesus is both man and God (YHVH). He never ceased being either during the Incarnation, nor does he now (albeit he is a glorified human). God works CONTINUALLY; he doesn't take a day off for the Sabbath as he upholds the universe. Even unconverted Jews knew that. They see that children are born and people live and die on the Sabbath, and that rain happens. Their view of the universe, like the informed Christian view, isn't that God has nature on autopilot; he is actively involved in upholding the universe, and he doesn't take a day off on the Sabbath. This claim is ludicrous, although some Sabbatarians claim keeping the Sabbath is an integral part of his character. What kind of nonsense is that, since God is uncreated, never changes, and there was no day or night before creation? One has to jump on the theological short bus to make that claim.

Dale's book is excellent but I disagree with him on that one point. He may not understand the hypostatic union and that might be the issue. I have dialogued with him a bit on this issue, and he may modify his understanding..I don't know. Anyways the rest of his book is solid and enlightening.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Ok thank you, So you can't do it and I knew you would not be able to because its not there. You try to take one witness/NT and make it disagree with the first witness/OT which neither Jesus nor the apostles did. They backed their claims with a thus saith the Lord which was the OT at the time, you can't do that yet you hold to your personal opinions. I can't accept that.

No disrespect intended, you are a nice enough bloke, Just I expect actual evidence from the word of God before I will accept it. and as you have none I can not accept you view.

Besides Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17, I have provided Scriptures showing that the entire Mosaic Covenant is not in effect anymore. It's YOUR ASSERTION that the Ten Commandments is a separate unit and continues whereas the Book of the Covenant is being referred to in these verses. II Corinthians 3 indicates otherwise; Paul specifically mentions letters written on stone.

Additionally, as I have continued to point out, you consider some things in the Book of the Covenant to be binding so you are being inconsistent. For example, you would continue to affirm that unclean meat laws still apply as well as other much more obvious stipulations that are elaborations upon the moral commandments of the Ten Commandments.

So, viewing the Mosaic Covenant in this way results in an inconsistency. Like most Sabbatarian/Torah observers, they create a patchwork quilt of commandments that they attempt to judge others by, proclaiming them to be in sin for non-observance.

The real issues are usually about days, meats and sometimes physical circumcision. Those are the points of obsession with Judaizers.

And, they ignore the fact that Paul never mentioned Sabbathbreaking or eating unclean meats as an issue in his epistles to the Gentiles. So, if it is the big issue that Sabbatarians claim, why did he fail to mention this? It would have been an issue because there were slaves in the NT church who could not dictate the food provided to them, and could not dictate when they were allowed to rest or worship.

Regarding LoveGodForever's lengthy list of 100 items, I could go through them and systematically address them, but it would take hours to do so. He knows that, and that's why he tried to shotgun me with this list. I have other things to do with my life than address his assertions. Those who are concerned can feel free to contact me directly, although I have also listed an excellent resource in my signature, Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff.

It is plain to me that his tactic is simply to overwhelm the thread so that his view is the dominant one, and to accuse others of not providing Scriptures. I am providing Scriptural references. I make references and don't type them out because doing so takes too much landscape. Those who are truly interested can use their own Bibles to research, or ask me one on one.

Concerning the claim that I am "following man" and "following tradition", like I've said, I was a former Sabbathkeeper and am intimately familiar with their position. Things are not as simple as Sabbathkeepers claim. Their view of the Mosaic Covenant, church history, etcetera, is distorted and misleading. Additionally, I do not reinvent wheels. If someone else has done a fine job with a decent resource, I have no problems referring to it. I read what is written, evaluate it, and note exceptions that I may have to their work. Those who are too lazy to acquire the resource and evaluate the arguments for themselves can simply suffer the consequences. The consequences for me involved dwelling in a sub-Christian worldview for a decade. God can work good even in the midst of cultic teaching, though I don't recommend it.

I pray for the elect that they would not be deceived by charlatans, or that they would not stay in deception. God is really the one who must bring them out of these snares of the devil.

And..I have no issues with non-Judaizer Sabbath/festival observers who do so for reasons of heritage or because they are valuable signs or types. I suggest finding a group that doesn't judge others as sinners for non-observance, and don't rely on non-biblical sources of information such as prophetesses. I would also make sure they believe in the full deity of Jesus Christ and the Trinity. Research the organization FULLY. I don't think you're going to find many Sabbathkeeping organizations that are not involved in judgmental attitudes, but there are some.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

PS. My turn, please reconcile your belief with the descriptions in God's Word of who God's people are ......

GOD’S LAST DAY PEOPLE THAT RECEIVE HIS PROTECTION

“Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus”

Note: There is too many bible verses to list here that describe who God’s people are throughout the complete Word of God. Therefore I am only listing versus from the book of Revelations and some of the versus found in the New Testament as to keep going is pointless. The Word of God clearly identifies who God’s people are from the Book of Revelations and the New Testament so let’s see what God has to say. No need for any interpretations as God’s Word speaks for itself although take note of Rev 12:17 and 19:12.

THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS

1. “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus” (Rev 12:17)

2. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:12)

3. “Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Rev 22:14)

4. “Here is the patience of the saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the Faith of Jesus.” (Rev 14:12)

NEW TESTAMENT

5. “And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. “ (1John 3:3)
6. “Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.“ (1John 3:4)
7. “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” (1John 3:4)
9. “Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.” (1John 3:5)
10. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1John 3:7)
11. “He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1John 3:8)

12. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1John 3:9)
13. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not
righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1John 3:10)

14. “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.” (1John 5:2)
15. “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” (1John 5:3)

16. “And this is love that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.” (2John 1:6)

17. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to
fulfil.” (Matt 5:17)
18. “For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matt 5:18)
19. “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:19)

20. “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Matt 5:27-28)

21. “And he said unto him, Why call me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:17)

22. “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)

23. “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

24. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)
25. “For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.” (James 2:11)
26. “So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12)
27. “For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoices against judgment.” (James 2:13)
28. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” (James 2:14)
29. “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,” (James 2:15)
30. “And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled,” (James 2:16)
31. “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)
32. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)

33. “You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)
34. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)

35. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1John 2:3)
36. “He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1John 2:4)
37. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Heb 10:26)

38. “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Heb 10:27)
39. “In times of this ignorance God winks at; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:” (Acts 17:30)
40. "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. "(Heb 10:26)
41. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." (Heb 8:10-12; Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27)
42. "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
43. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)
44. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

Now obviously we cannot do all of the above in our own strength as we are all sinners and before we come to Jesus this is all we can possibly do. However, it is the Law of God that is our school master the shows us that we are all sinners and in need of salvation from sin and that the wages of sin is death. The Law of God leads us to the foot of the cross where we can behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world! It is here, as we have complete dependence on the Word of God, and by Faith (believing what God says) simply cling to the promises of God, that forgiveness is claimed.

It is by continuing in the Word of God by complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it will do that allows Jesus to work in us so that we can follow him and by Faith Keep all of His commandments because He alone has written His Laws in our Heart (new covenant).

Now lets look at it from your thinking of God's Law being done away.... If there is no Law anymore there is no knowledge of sin because sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4). If there is no knowledge of sin there is no need of a Saviour. If there is no need of a Saviour there is no salvation. The person is simply lost because God's Word tells us "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12). Hope this helps those that love God's Word and want to follow Jesus. God's Word clearly describe who His people are. They are the ones that follow Jesus and reveal His love to the World.

"Here is the patience of the saints, here are those that keep the commandment of God and the Faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12). To Him be the Glory forever and ever Amen. God's Sheep hear His Voice.....

God bless you all

You know, I praise God for obvious kooks that show their mentality clearly. See, I try to explain the Sabbathkeeper mentality as paranoid and full of conspiracy theorist stuff, and wild prophetic speculation. Guys like gotime know better than to display it obviously. They don't make good poster children for Sabbatarian kookiness, and they disappoint me in this regard

I lived a decade around such kooks and I was one myself, dwelling in a worldview that viewed Christianity as a Satan-deceived bunch of non-believers. I fooled myself into thinking that my Sabbathkeeping and clean meat diet did something spiritually to set me apart from THEM. They had nothing to teach me. They were spiritually blinded and in the snares of the devil.

You may not be as extreme as Armstrongites but the same mentality is there. Thanks for illustrating my characterization. If I only had guys like gotime around, I wouldn't be able to support my assertions as well. He usually doesn't display it as well, unless the Pope mentions Sunday

Just so you guys know, SDAs claim that they are the remnant, true church because 1) they keep the "commandments of God" which they understand to be talking about the Ten Commandments and not every commandment that is applicable to US and 2) they have the "spirit of prophecy" which is in essence Ellen G. White's kooky writings and possibly some other kook who may come along later.

They claim that the "seal of God" is keeping the Sabbath rather than the Holy Spirit, and the "mark of the Beast" will be Sabbath-breaking or Sunday observance at some point eschatologically.

 

[Yonah]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Seems to me some are so busy looking at others errors they fail to actually avail themselves to the changing influence of the Holy spirit and a close walk with the Almighty. Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Seems there's a more productive way of sharing ones own views without belittling and insulting others, I don't understand why some wont simply accept the fact that, despite what they THINK they know , they are not infallable in these matters, knowledge puffs up, but true humility causes one to be lifted up (spiritually first). Righteous judgement is required if judgement is to be rendered by other believers , and if this is done from bitterness or some self seeking motive rather known or not, it not only brings reproach upon the ONE we represent , it causes discord in the body of Messiah. what? the father is not able to lead those in error to the truth in His way and time?

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a good meme that relates to the SDA view that the Sabbath is the Seal of God.

This belief originated with Joseph Bates, one of the four pioneers of the SDA movement.

It is intertwined with their view of prophecy.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Seems to me some are so busy looking at others errors they fail to actually avail themselves to the changing influence of the Holy spirit and a close walk with the Almighty. Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Seems there's a more productive way of sharing ones own views without belittling and insulting others, I don't understand why some wont simply accept the fact that, despite what they THINK they know , they are not infallable in these matters, knowledge puffs up, but true humility causes one to be lifted up (spiritually first). Righteous judgement is required if judgement is to be rendered by other believers , and if this is done from bitterness or some self seeking motive rather known or not, it not only brings reproach upon the ONE we represent , it causes discord in the body of Messiah. what? the father is not able to lead those in error to the truth in His way and time?

Apply that to yourself. You claim that Reformed theology is Satanic, and continue to do so. Educated Christians have discussed this issue for centuries without resolving the dilemma between God's sovereignty and man's responsibilities, both clearly taught in Scripture.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Yonah,

Let me elaborate on this thread a little more.

Part of the issue I have with Torah observers is their attempt to discredit Christianity in general. It is something you have engaged in.

For instance, you constantly comment in the chat room that Christianity has gone far off the track over the centuries. This is part and parcel of the "Torah observer" claim..that they have the "true faith" that is apostolic and non-observers are in error.

Additionally, you comment that there are 60,000 denominations and this is reflective of the fact that Christianity is flawed. Well, what do you consider your organization, whether it is a home church or whatever? If I'm not mistaken, you are involved with a home group fellowship. Does your little group think it has superior teachings? If so, how are you different than the 60,000 denominations you reference?

And, the number you quote is twice as high as what Roman Catholics claim. They often use the number of denominations to infer that Protestantism is in error. So do cults and kooky groups. It's a typical ploy of cultic groups in order to discredit the rest of Christianity.

In light of this, your comment regarding Reformed theology being Satanic, to me, appears to be just another attempt to attack Christianity.

I am also not oblivious to the remarks of "Torah observers" who claim that they have the "ancient path" and that evangelical Christianity does not. Those remarks are made as well..it is common for Torah Observers to make these comments, along with the claim that they observe "my Father's commandments" with the inference that others are not.

And, you have noted that non observers are sinning by not observing the Sabbath in the chat room.

So, the point of this thread is that if Torah observers think they are observing Torah, they are inconsistent because Torah cannot be observed. There is no functioning Levitical priesthood and no Temple. They do not go to Jerusalem for the festivals as Torah required.

If they want to say there is value in observing the shadows and types, with the realization that Christ fulfilled them, I have no issue with that. I have observant friends who do this, with no accusation that others are in sin for non-observance. However, that is not the normal position. This thread proves that. Notice the continual remarks by the SDA about other Christians being in sin for non-observance of the Sabbath. And, you yourself have acknowledged that is your view. It would be hard for it not to be, since you define sin to be the "transgression of the Law", and interpret "the Law" to be the Mosaic Law.

I know the thinking because I thought, in general, the same way..although my view of "the Law" was more restricted than the Mosaic Law.

All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)..any deviation from the glory of God (God's holiness) is sin..and that includes a lot more than Torah. Torah was a faint glimmer of God's holiness, and it was a "basket" of commandments, with different purposes. Days and meats are not an issue according to Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17. Jesus is the fullest expression of God's holiness. To define sin in the way a Torah observer does is to lack understanding of the intention of Torah, and to ignore points I've brought up in this thread.

At any rate, your remarks in the chatroom are noted by other people as being accusatory toward the rest of Christianity. You may not be blatant about it, but the comments are being noted by others. And when such comments continue to be made by "Torah observers", I am going to react to them as long as I'm on the site. I spent enough time listening to nonsense like that as an Armstrongite and I don't want others to be affected by the same thinking.

And, you guys can claim that my Armstrongite experience was abusive and that I am embittered..or that I am mentally ill..in order to discredit me. But the same worldview affects a large segment of "Torah observers". I have already commented on the local Messianic congregation that is proclaiming "Truth above Tradition" with the inference that the rest of Christianity is following tradition and that they are the arbiters of truth..same mentality as the Armstrongites. I asked them if they consider the rest of Christianity to be in sin due to non-observance..they would not answer me which is in essence to make the claim that, yes, they are.

I consider it part of my obligation to drag beliefs like this into the light so that those who might be fooled by them know what's going on in the minds of the people who are claiming such things. And I'll do that as long as I'm here.