Not By Works

[Ariel82]

FranC.,,

You obviously misread my post and not surprising since it wasn't directed towards you.

Perhaps you should just read along for a while?

Then maybe folks can have a conversation without folks falsely representing what is being said?

What I'm resisting is the church's misguided understanding that it is not necessary to have these works in order to be saved on the day of judgment, that dead faith also saves

He is accusing the church as teaching that dead works saved..

.I stated that no one teaches this and tried to explain what is being said and taught

I did not as falsely implied accuse him of anything.
.We actually agree on quite a bit and are discussing what we don't agree about.

.I don't know if it's wording or concept or doctrine at this point,

 

[FranC]

The reality without a pure heart, a cleansed spirit, and redeemed soul, in communion with
the Holy Spirit, things will always be confused and fuzzy.

Jesus leads us to the way of cleansing, but until we are cleansed we cannot see it, and only
the cleansed know its reality. It has never been about knowledge or position.

I was talking to a brother today about men opening up. He lives a very defended life, and
keeps everyone at a distance and trusts no-one, and when I talked about openness and a
space for guys to share about how they felt, he was not interested, but not passively but
actively as if it represented a threat to him.

We do not doubt our own hearts that they deceive us and lie to us, but think we can trust
our own motivation. I learnt years ago my heart will betray me to stop repentance and
humbleness. Call it pride or denial, it is lethal to the soul before God.

It is strange that those who use this defence so strongly are the ones who accuse us of this very
thing when it is their biggest problem. They need true repentance, mourning and grief, but it is
this they resist above all things.

Listening reveals so much of another, praise the Lord that He brings the light to our hearts and
before Him we need have no fear, only honesty and humbleness.

Maybe your Brother in Christ was hurt at some point. Maybe he realized that speaking didn't mean too much since the other party wasn't even listening.

I think it's unfortunate that some, not many thankfully, have something so ingrained into their mind that they don't even hear what is being said anymore.

Here on this thread I hear some say that we ARE to do works, but in the same breath they'll say that works are not necessary and only faith is necessary.

If Jesus said that even we can do woks, that must mean that He expects us to do works. If He spent all His time explaining
HOW we are to change internally so that we could do for the Kingdom externally, then it must mean that He expects both the internal and external.

But it would see that some accept the internal but say that the external is only a sign... Yes, but a NECESSARY sign!

Tomorrow...

 

[Conversationand]

This topic is personal to me because I grew up in a church that preached once saved always saved. I firmly believe that is a doctrine that inspires a dead body. Those are part of my opinion, so please do not add them to my argument. Our salvation is dependent on our heart before God. Works are a natural, logical outworking of a true heart. James 2 says "14 [FONT=&quot]What good is it, my brothers and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sisters,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Can such faith save them?" Clearly, we can do nothing to gain our salvation, but if we have salvation? What do we look like? What does it look like to be a new creature?

[/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

One wonders if these words condemn the speaker?

What if they are on the "wrong side"?

What if their gospel is false?

Have they "closed their hearts"?

Are they "impervious to the truth?"

And such a group will be impervious to the truth, because they have closed their hearts and
know the divide but not which side they are on. Only when you have life, will that life bear
fruit, and when this life is made clear to those in darkness, only confusion will fill them.

It's a good thing I believe that God can overcome even these lies. God is powerful enough to save anyone.

Salvation is by Faith not works of righteousness,

Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


****

Do you know the difference between being saved FOR good works VERSUS. BY GOOD WORKS?

To be saved the only requirement is Faith which is a gift from God.

To be mature one must learn to walk with the Holy spirit, be chastened and learn our place in the Body of Christ.

 

[Burninglight]

Is your body the temple of God?
If you say yes, then are the works of God
filthy as rags and self righteous?

Yes, my body is the temple of God, and I am fearfully and wonderfully made, but I don't always do the right thing even when my intentions are good. Sometimes, I do things in my own strength for God and that doesn't count as building on the foundation of Jesus Christ with works that will last. This is the case with all Christians, because there is no temptation we go through that is not common to man.

 

[graceNpeace]

This topic is personal to me because I grew up in a church that preached once saved always saved. I firmly believe that is a doctrine that inspires a dead body. Those are part of my opinion, so please do not add them to my argument. Our salvation is dependent on our heart before God. Works are a natural, logical outworking of a true heart. James 2 says "14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" Clearly, we can do nothing to gain our salvation, but if we have salvation? What do we look like? What does it look like to be a new creature?

Actually all it shows is a dead church!

If OSAS leads to what you say it did in your church then the church was definitely NOT preaching the whole counsel of God.
I come out of an OSAS environment and the result was completely the opposite of what you describe!

 

[Ariel82]

This topic is personal to me because I grew up in a church that preached once saved always saved. I firmly believe that is a doctrine that inspires a dead body. Those are part of my opinion, so please do not add them to my argument. Our salvation is dependent on our heart before God. Works are a natural, logical outworking of a true heart. James 2 says "14 [FONT=&quot]What good is it, my brothers and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sisters,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Can such faith save them?" Clearly, we can do nothing to gain our salvation, but if we have salvation? What do we look like? What does it look like to be a new creature?

[/FONT]

It looks like Jesus.

Servant leadership, sacrificial love, patience, gentleness, kindness and a willing to forgive even those who continue to abuse and misrepresent what you say and who you are in Christ. Agape love with no strings or conditions attached.

 

[Grace777x70]

Actually all it shows is a dead church!

If OSAS leads to what you say it did in your church then the church was definitely NOT preaching the whole counsel of God.
I come out of an OSAS environment and the result was completely the opposite of what you describe!

I agree...

I think that the gospel of the grace of Christ has been so watered down with law and condemnation and a works-based righteousness that the "message" given out "as the gospel" does not have the power in it for real transformation in an on-going basis in the Christian's life.

The Holy Spirit can only use the message of Christ Himself and what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection to transform us. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We can get born-again from it however which is wonderful and the most important aspect of it because it is our entrance into this grace in which we stand.

The gospel is about an exchanged life not merely a behavior modification program for the flesh to pretty it up. If we preached the real gospel then in "it" people will find real salvation for all areas of their lives while living on this earth.

A lot of the exhortations by Paul to live right were always based on him first telling them what the real gospel is.

These exhortations are descriptive of the fruit of an exchanged life and what the true Christian life looks like when we are walking by the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

Works-based salvationists make these exhortations a requirement in order to be saved which is the complete opposite of the gospel message in Christ.

Acceptance grace in that we are completely forgiven, deeply loved as a child of God and forever sealed in Him - knowing this will release the 2nd aspect of grace - empowering grace to go and sin no more. It's a by-product of our new life in Christ.

We really need to be cemented in the 1st aspect of acceptance grace - then empowering grace will be manifested as a fruit of His life being lived in and through us.

 

[PeterJens]

All born-again Christians are pure in heart.

Unfortunately this is obviously not true.
A child can be cleaned by a parent, but if they go out to mud pool again they get
dirty all over again.

Defilement is a choice, coming to faith is a taste of what being cleansed permantly
is like, but we what to walk in it for it to become a long term reality.

cc demonstrates many for decades of knowledge of Christ still do not know how to
walk for one day being cleansed and not defiled. They are so defeated their argument
is only defeat is the true state of a believer. And at first I would have accepted this
position because it is so embedded in our language, behaviour and sharing.

But this is because we do not read scripture enough, open our hearts up and listen,
obey and walk, let God feed our spirits and cleanse us through the word.

The faith of defeat is so strong, some declare no one can for even one day or some
say even one second walk righteously. This is how poor the understanding of love and
righteousness truly is. The enemy has robbed Gods people of a language Paul brought
to His people, and yet so few know it or feel it.

And this duplicitous version of faith, at one moment saying none are pure and then saying
all are pure. I hate this kind of language because it is such junk mascarading as truth, but
with no foundation. Jesus throws this out with one simple idea. If your hand causes you to
sin, you will be thrown into hell. It is an all or nothing gospel. Come to terms with this, and
know who is your King.

 

[dcontroversal]

This topic is personal to me because I grew up in a church that preached once saved always saved. I firmly believe that is a doctrine that inspires a dead body. Those are part of my opinion, so please do not add them to my argument. Our salvation is dependent on our heart before God. Works are a natural, logical outworking of a true heart. James 2 says "14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" Clearly, we can do nothing to gain our salvation, but if we have salvation? What do we look like? What does it look like to be a new creature?

I don't believe that....what inspires a dead body is a body that is not fed.....and I can list hundreds of people I know personally who serve the Lord faithfully, bearing fruit and doing the work while believing in the eternal security found in Christ....we have been set free from legalism and now serve because of love and the easy yoke of the Lord....

Now....in order to reject eternal security one must reject the inspired verb tense, verbiage, words, definitions, and context....the context of JAMES is NOT about doing works for salvation....and if one can lose salvation one must DO SOMETHING TO KEEP IT which is a works based religion...(NOT SAYING YOU DO)

Paul is clear....

If it is works it is NOT GRACE.........end of story.....!

Now concerning works....

a. The work of the FATHER is to believe on JESUS
b. No one here denies that we are saved unto good works (our contention is that works do not save or keep saved, but rather they are a by product of saving faith)
c. Works of a believer can also be found under the banner of wood, hay and stubble
d. How many works are required to prove faith...in Abraham's life only five are listed.....defeating the 4 kings in battle, offering 10% to the King off Salem, leaving Ur, being circumcised and offering Isaac.....yet the bible is clear he had faith before he done any of the 5 listed...We conclude that Abraham our Father was justified by Faith void of works.....<--this cannot be swept under the rug
e. So a great man of faith had 5 listed...(obviously he did more) SO how many.....JESUS said a cup of cold water in his name would not be forgotten and or unrewarded....

So how many....1, 10, 50, 1000

 

[PeterJens]

One wonders if these words condemn the speaker?
What if they are on the "wrong side"?
What if their gospel is false?
Have they "closed their hearts"?
Are they "impervious to the truth?"

It's a good thing I believe that God can overcome even these lies. God is powerful enough to save anyone.
Salvation is by Faith not works of righteousness,
Ephesians 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

****

Do you know the difference between being saved FOR good works VERSUS. BY GOOD WORKS?
To be saved the only requirement is Faith which is a gift from God.
To be mature one must learn to walk with the Holy spirit, be chastened and learn our place in the Body of Christ.

I spent years debating and discussing with muslims about love and the nature of
the Koran.

I have now spent years discussing with some on cc and equally nothing has progressed.

So whether you can accept it or not, unless ones heart is open to change and shifting
foundational loyalties, one is stuck where one is.

Now this is not a lie, but an observational truth. The teachers of the law heard Jesus,
saw the death and resurrection and still stood in rebellion against God.
The people of Israel saw God part the red sea, defeat the Egyptian army, go before
them in a pillar of smoke and fire, and yet they still worshiped a golden calf, committed
sexual immorality and died under judgement.

Man has not changed, and people will always openly rebel against God, lie, cheat, slander,
and do all told evil things, and be lost. But we are called just to preach the truth and walk
in the light. That is the people of God.

So everyone chooses a side in their hearts. I pray all may choose the Lords way, but I know
only a few ever will, no matter what we might want to tell ourselves, and others will be fully
convinced they are serving God, when they are not. But this is eternal spiritual reality, so
I just praise Jesus and thank Him for His revelation, love conquers all in the hearts of His
people, Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

So whether you can accept it or not, unless ones heart is open to change and shifting
foundational loyalties, one is stuck where one is.

.

There ya go......now if you could just accept it and be honest with this in your own life......

 

[Ariel82]

You know I come here day after day hoping that God has revealed wisdom and we can fellowship and have peace and joy walking one with another.

Sadly it's hard to find.

So Dcon, I have decided to talk with you.

This morning sermon was good.

Our pastor starts each greeting with "hello beautiful people"

Someone said that they have never been called beautiful by a pastor before.

The sermon was about remembering.

How the most hopeful verses in the Bible is when Jesus broke bread and said "do this in remembrance of me".

I wonder if we live our lives in a way that we will remember the good and not dwell on the bad?

 

[Ariel82]

This is the first bible verse he read to the church counsel..

Philippians 4:8New International Version (NIV)

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things

 

[dcontroversal]

You know I come here day after day hoping that God has revealed wisdom and we can fellowship and have peace and joy walking one with another.

Sadly it's hard to find.

So Dcon, I have decided to talk with you.

This morning sermon was good.

Our pastor starts each greeting with "hello beautiful people"

Someone said that they have never been called beautiful by a pastor before.

The sermon was about remembering.

How the most hopeful verses in the Bible is when Jesus broke bread and said "do this in remembrance of me".

I wonder if we live our lives in a way that we will remember the good and not dwell on the bad?

AMEN...it is good to remember Christ and all he has done....today I taught lesson on the use of the sun, moon and stars as signs and for the keeping of time....used scriptures from about 10 books of the bible that dealt with particular astronomical events found in scripture and we studied for almost an hour and a half.....opened and closed with prayer obviously.....glad you had a good day in the Lord

 

[Ariel82]

On the bottom of all his emails read

"If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough." - Meister Eckhart

 

[PennEd]

Lol, no I'm not the only one who understands James. There are others right here in this thread who understand. But we are definitely in the minority. The church has been overtaken by this severe misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works teaching.



That is what I'm saying. What I'm resisting is the church's misguided understanding that it is not necessary to have these works in order to be saved on the day of judgment, that dead faith also saves, which is in complete and utter contradiction to what James said and a contradiction which no one seems to want to explain.


No one is making a legalistic argument for the necessity for works. God is just. He judges according to what you've been given, and your ability to act on it. The thief can't even move his arms or legs, why would God expect him to suddenly have works to accompany his faith???? The problem I see is people using the thief on the cross as an excuse to do nothing with what their arms and legs and mouth can do.....and still think they have a faith that will save them.



It's all summed up in the fruit of the Spirit.


In regard to the fundamental character that God expects people who have faith in him goes, no, it's not different for each person. We're all saved in order to be conformed to the image of Christ. Not anybody's else's image. It's about character. Not legalistic works.


Whatever it is that God expected their saving faith to produce in them at that time is what he will be looking for to confirm the presence of that saving faith. God is just. He does not expect a baby to walk like a man, but only to crawl as a baby would.

I guess the thief on the cross, the Corinthian guy having sex with his mother who's Spirit will be saved on the last day according to Paul, EVERY death bed convert are ALL lost because they didn't do works to accompany their faith!

And BTW... Just how many works are necessary to prove you are saved?

FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCES WORKS. WORKS DO NOT PRODUCE FRUIT!

Geesh,the works for or to maintain Salvation, Clan has dispatched a lot of new reinforcements!

 

[Ariel82]

AMEN...it is good to remember Christ and all he has done....today I taught lesson on the use of the sun, moon and stars as signs and for the keeping of time....used scriptures from about 10 books of the bible that dealt with particular astronomical events found in scripture and we studied for almost an hour and a half.....opened and closed with prayer obviously.....glad you had a good day in the Lord

I took an astronomy class a few years ago. Its amazing to be able to identify the constellation mentioned in the Bible and be able to tell the seasons, etc from the starts and the sun and moon.

Can you imagine navigating the oceans with only stars, a clock and sexton?

We are so spoiled with GPS, satellite, etc.

Sometimes I think 81st good to get into nature and see the world as God made it, uncluttered by man made distractions.

Looking forward to our back packing trip and praying for the kids and all to go well and stay healthy and that God works in all our lives.

 

[Ariel82]

PennEd....he did say this...

No one is making a legalistic argument for the necessity for works. God is just. He judges according to what you've been given, and your ability to act on it. The thief can't even move his arms or legs, why would God expect him to suddenly have works to accompany his faith???? The problem I see is people using the thief on the cross as an excuse to do nothing with what their arms and legs and mouth can do.....and still think they have a faith that will save them.

I am not sure who he is saying is making excuses for not working, but apparently he knows some folks who are lazy?

 

[dcontroversal]

I took an astronomy class a few years ago. Its amazing to be able to identify the constellation mentioned in the Bible and be able to tell the seasons, etc from the starts and the sun and moon.

Can you imagine navigating the oceans with only stars, a clock and sexton?

We are so spoiled with GPS, satellite, etc.

Sometimes I think 81st good to get into nature and see the world as God made it, uncluttered by man made distractions.

Looking forward to our back packing trip and praying for the kids and all to go well and stay healthy and that God works in all our lives.

I like astronomy...entered a science fair at age 12 and built a solar model...and o doubt on navigating by the stars....I have a few apps I like Sky Map and Sky View.....the latter just downloaded today....free app for smart phones....The first on the list is signs in Genesis as applied unto the sun, moon and stars.....good stuff