Not By Works

[mailmandan]

You won't get an honest answer from none of them....the fact that Abraham was saved and justified by faith long before he offered Isaac shoots down his working for dogma.....If he states Abraham would have made the kingdom had he died before he offered Isaac...well, his farce is known....

Amen! In James 2:21, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works" (James 2:21). He was shown to be righteous.

We always need to keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[PeterJens]

Shifting positions

If future sin is forgiven and not an issue, why is God convicting people of sin, in this
theology?

And sin, how is it defined? For sin to exist and to have conviction you need a moral
law. But the law has been done away with. So if there is sinful behaviour there equally
need to be righteous behaviour. So does this conviction of sin come with conviction about
righteousness and the power to walk in it?

I am sure soon we will have the whole gospel preached like a see saw, and then denied by
some new flaw or reason.

Like the idea when Paul says we can be broken off from the root, that is as gentiles as a whole
and not individuals. But though this sounds like an abstract idea, when you look at it in detail,
it is obedience of Israelites to Gods law, or Christians to Gods law, or falling into unbelief and
rebellion.

And it is true as fellowships there is a body aspect and an individual aspect, both of which
are important, but it seems to avoid the idea we can walk in faith and then fall into unbelief
which is both clearly the meaning and the reality we see in life, this is denied.

When truth is no longer important, and making things harmless is the key ethic, then everything
can be spun into a inept wet blanket.

God help those who do this, because there will be no forgiveness of willful sin and rebellion.

 

[willybob]

And as the saying goes a rolling stone will gather no moss,,, meaning the workers against will gather no rewards..

there is only one reward found in the scripture, its eternal life...........be blessed

 

[willybob]

2 Cor. 4-11 for we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (this is manifest reality, not a positional enigma)

 

[dcontroversal]

there is only one reward found in the scripture, its eternal life...........be blessed

YEAH...GIFT or REWARD....

I will take the bible's version instead of your false view....Salvation and eternal life are a gift....maybe the reason you do not possess either.....( more than likely)

I have yet to see you post truth in context....nothing but conjecture, supposition and guesses based upon a total lack of scripture and or context!

 

[mailmandan]

....and therefore can walk as Christ lived. Scripture is not deceptive, it is just not understood by some; those who do not look at it thru righteousness.....Hence, "according to the spirit."

It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk. Only Christ was absolutely perfect 100% of the time. Christ walked in love, obedience and self sacrifice and believers are capable of this pattern of life, yet we are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time as Christ was when He lived out His life on earth.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[mailmandan]

Yep....try and be saved by keeping the law will get you severed from the Covenant of grace.

You can keep the law and be okay. In fact the law is good when used rightly.

However, if you believe that your keeping of the law saves you.,,,then you have fallen from grace.

Here is how I understand Galatians 5:4:

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. It's obvious they were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?

In Galatians 3:3, we read - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! ​

 

[willybob]

So the baptism of repentance leads to baptism in Jesus?

If you say yes then does it not contradict when you said your baptised into the name of Jesus (actullay you said Holy Spirit but given the triune Godhead it's the same).

I have no idea what Church you go to or your experience but you said that



I dont go to a church like that.

Why is your view tainted this way?

I cant find one denomination that i know of that teaches that a person can chose to stop sinning.NOT ONE....I do know of some small gatherings that do however. They dont perceive the church to be a building but rather the assymbly of believers..

Don't matter weather it is Calvinism, Catholicism, Arminianism, they all preach that sin is the fate of man. Its a universal one world theology, believing in sin management programs, whereas one can never come clean with God by crucifying the flesh, and making a clean departure from sin like Zeccias did...

The baptism of repentance is a devotional act of putting to death the sinful desires of the flesh in a season of godly sorrow, no matter how long it takes, and not to be regretted of.. Its not going to be an instantaneous thing in most cases. it could take a week, a month, a year, depending.... but the gospel for dollars desires immediate gratification, has no patience, and wants canned instant results. The only way that can happen is they must bring them into the kingdom while still in their sin

The baptism of repentance is man's part, then God baptizes with the Holy Spirit (His devotional part)... the two are dependent upon each other, can't have one without the other.... if God sees the sincerity and devotion within a clean vessel He sends His Spirit to abode therein in the which the ways of Jesus Christ are manifest in the persons mortal body (manifest reality)......be blessed

 

[Ariel82]

ariel, DC and my other friends, you have my permission to hold me accountable to this, I agree with Megiddo.

Want a warning word when you start getting heated?


I can tell you that you are "burning the cake"?

 

[PeterJens]

Pauls packed arguments

Pauls letters are packed with different perspectives and developed ideas.
He sometimes goes off on various tangents and then ends on a summary statement.

Here is one example

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law
Rom 3:31

As believers we uphold the law, which is the moral law, the law of Christ not the
law of Moses. The reason Paul develops all the tangents and points to make clear
what he is building up to. Now miss this one verse, and you could think the law
is irrelevant.

I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:21

The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:6-8

Now Paul is warning people who are in faith. And the warning is if you continue in sin
you are rejecting God and will be judged and lose eternal life.

Now it is obvious reading what people write, rather than accepting what is plainly being
written, they would rather change its meaning and ignore its intent, like it never exists.

It is this blindness I find staggering. I would have no problems if the obvious interpretation
was admitted as being there and then countered, but to just ignore it is to not walk in the
light.

 

[Ariel82]

Here is how I understand Galatians 5:4:

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. It's obvious they were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?

In Galatians 3:3, we read - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! ​

Maybe he speaks of both? Those who trust the law and teach it and those they seek to deceive?

 

[willybob]

What's interesting is how people confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (do not walk according to the flesh - Romans 8:1) with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (believes in Him - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..). Those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is descriptive language of those who are in Christ. ​Believers walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit not in order to get in Christ, but because they are in Christ.

They do it because they choose to from a heart of sincerity and purity, thus taking hold of the precious promises in that HE delivers His people from their sin...Zeccias did what was right from heart purity, and in doing so he was then delivered from his sin (salvation)...

 

[dcontroversal]

I cant find one denomination that i know of that teaches that a person can chose to stop sinning.NOT ONE....I do know of some small gatherings that do however. They dont perceive the church to be a building but rather the assymbly of believers..

Maybe you should pay attention to the word...the bible is clear....we will not be 100% completely sinless until we get a glorified body or die....the most FAITHFUL men and women of the bible OCCASIONALLY failed and SINNED....your problem is you teach a false working for sinless dogma that does not fit the scripture...therefore you twist, embellish and ignore all context and verses that contradicts your view.....end of story.....and you will continue to reject the truth in favor of your own vanilla twist, chocolate covered, working for sinless dogma.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Want a warning word when you start getting heated?


I can tell you that you are "burning the cake"?

HAHAHHAHAH no doubt....cake takers and cake burners HAHAHHAHAH those who receive the truth....cake eaters......

 

[willybob]

YEAH...GIFT or REWARD....

I will take the bible's version instead of your false view....Salvation and eternal life are a gift....maybe the reason you do not possess either.....( more than likely)

I have yet to see you post truth in context....nothing but conjecture, supposition and guesses based upon a total lack of scripture and or context!

rewards was invented by cleaver pundits, its invisible scripture..... show me one place in scripture that reward is in the plural sense, you wont' find it..Its always used in the SINGULAR.............

ive become weary of your foolishness, it truly wears out the saints....I see no sense in going on refuting your vain arguments, therefore will put you on ignore....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Want a warning word when you start getting heated?


I can tell you that you are "burning the cake"?

with Megiddo yes, and burning the cake sounds good

 

[dcontroversal]

rewards was invented by cleaver pundits, its invisible scripture..... show me one place in scripture that reward is in the plural sense, you wont' find it..Its always used in the SINGULAR.............

Salvation is a gift NOT a reward.......and it is obvious that rewards is plural <--CROWNS that can be earned as a REWARD......

Salvation<--freely given in Christ by faith
Reward(s) and CROWNS earned by faithful service

Your logic is flawed.....reward is used in the same way the word DEER is used.....it can be singular and or PLURAL......

5 CROWNS that can be WON is PLURAL.....man...you sure grasp at straws and claw your way and dig your hooves in like a stubborn mule to defend positions that are not defendable when one is HONEST

 

[dcontroversal]

Ariel....go to this thread and explain post number 2 to the originator of the thread HAHA

Any Iniquity That Denies Him; You Will Be Denied

 

[gb9]

Pauls packed arguments

Pauls letters are packed with different perspectives and developed ideas.
He sometimes goes off on various tangents and then ends on a summary statement.

Here is one example

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law
Rom 3:31

As believers we uphold the law, which is the moral law, the law of Christ not the
law of Moses. The reason Paul develops all the tangents and points to make clear
what he is building up to. Now miss this one verse, and you could think the law
is irrelevant.

I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:21

The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 4:6-8

Now Paul is warning people who are in faith. And the warning is if you continue in sin
you are rejecting God and will be judged and lose eternal life.

Now it is obvious reading what people write, rather than accepting what is plainly being
written, they would rather change its meaning and ignore its intent, like it never exists.

It is this blindness I find staggering. I would have no problems if the obvious interpretation
was admitted as being there and then countered, but to just ignore it is to not walk in the
light.

you mean ignoring slander, misrepresenting what others post, refusing to be truthful and admit when you are wrong, and, while talking ( constantly ) about not sinning, not using the full spectrum of what the Bible defines as sin.

all these behaviors are should stop before you speak a word about walking in the light. this is staggering blindness how you do all these things regularly, then talk about walking in the light. wow.

 

[mailmandan]

Speaking of Gentile believers as a group. As apposed to jews as a group. Who as a group were cut off. and gentiles as a group were grafted in.

Not spoken of individual people.

Its amazing we have to go over these things time and time again.

Yes it is amazing. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this does not speak of losing salvation.