Not By Works

[willybob]

freewill is implied some 12,000 times in the text, and the term is used 17 times in the text...just the word "if" which implies freewill choice is found thousands of times,,everybody presupposes freewill in theior daily lives...its a no brainier

 

[slave]

Free will is not a biblical concept, it dates back to Greek philosophy. Please use biblical concepts to defend you stance.

How is free will, (or volitional will) not a biblical concept? God in the NT employs our free will to be at its pristine best and is fully activated by the spirits lead. Are you suggesting the soul is dead, and is not re-commissioned under the guise of the spirit after regeneration? Your emotions and thinking and will are not governed by the Spirits lead and spirits reception to be used actively to go along with Jesus in walking in this world? Have we transformed in our physical state yet? Are we not yet human? enabled by Christ to live spiritually herein out, until the day of our physical transformation as well?

Was it not Volitional will which believed in Jesus in the first place? Is it not free will which picks up your cross daily and follows Jesus? Can you explain your answer here?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What???????????

Faith without works is DEAD.

How come there's so much misundersanding here?

Here we go again

can you tell me where i said hey had no works?

in fact I asked if THOSE WORKS were not proof f their true faith

and y U respond with no works?

whihc is it Fran?

 

[JoDel]

So John lied?

Thanks, I will let God know John the apostle was not trustworthy and should not have written the book of John and his three epistles when I see him in heaven.

Yes people fall back as prodigal children, I did for 5 years, I did not live Like I did before I was saved however, I could not, Every time I tried, the chastening of God got in my way, Yes, I committed some sins, Yes, I did some bad things, But I will still my fathers son, He left the flock, He came to find me, And since i was his sheep. I heard his voice, and I returned.

Other people (who never had faith to begin with) end up leaving because they never had true faith to begin with, Years go by, they never come back, You look at that, they are the same as they were before they claimed christ, if not worse, And they do not come back

Why? They were never his sheep. so when he calls them, they do not hear his voice.

I wish I could tell you that you were right, But I am sorry I can not, You are wrong, John is not a liar, he is true.

Amen.... from a fellow prodigal daughter. One of whom rejoices that I was not lost from His searching eyes... He left the flock for me as well. And you are sooooooo right about "trying to live as one does BEFORE being saved and the chastening of God blocking those attempts". Good stuff here EG.

 

[UnderGrace]

freewill is implied some 12,000 times in the text, and the term is used 17 times in the text...just the word "if" which implies freewill choice is found thousands of times,,everybody presupposes freewill in theior daily lives...its a no brainier

I suggest you spend some time studying ancient Greek
philosophy before you impose their beliefs on scripture.

The scripture tell us we have choices not free will.

 

[willybob]

the sinfull perfectionists continue marching on, after some 15,000 posts they are still arguing in favour of a sinful forgone conclusion,,,,,its amazing the stamina and freewill determination they have,

 

[gb9]

Jesus said paid in full

he did not say you had a down payment

just more word games from the works crowd. you know, to them, saved really doesn't mean saved, forgiven doesn't really mean forgiven, not by good works which we have done ( Titus 3 ) really doesn't mean what it says....... and on and on, twisting away every day......

 

[slave]

Yet they do it daily

The important thing is God has done it as the Alpha and Omega of History and is the source of moral authority; isn't that more of our concern? How has God judged sin to you?

 

[dcontroversal]

Here we go again

can you tell me where i said hey had no works?

in fact I asked if THOSE WORKS were not proof f their true faith

and y U respond with no works?

whihc is it Fran?

I have come to the conclusion that a few people are no longer worth the response...they are not open to anything but what is hammered on their own anvil and at the expense of context, verbiage, verb tense and common sense will argue a false moot point into the ground and then before Jesus himself right before they get cast into the pit.........

 

[willybob]

I suggest you spend some time studying ancient Greek
philosophy before you impose their beliefs on scripture.

The scripture tell us we have choices not free will.

Please explain the difference, and explain why these choices are actually called freewil 17 times in the text.We still make offering to God in the new covenant but .our offerings are now spiritual sacrifices unto God said the apostle Peter, the offerings to God must be of our own free will, see below,

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savor unto the LORD, of the herd or of the flock:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]2 Chronicles 31:14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 7:16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[gb9]

the sinfull perfectionists continue marching on, after some 15,000 posts they are still arguing in favour of a sinful forgone conclusion,,,,,its amazing the stamina and freewill determination they have,

and also after 15000 posts some still have this delusion that they do not sin.....because that is what sinless perfection/ pelagianism is. a delusion.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen.... from a fellow prodigal daughter. One of whom rejoices that I was not lost from His searching eyes... He left the flock for me as well. And you are sooooooo right about "trying to live as one does BEFORE being saved and the chastening of God blocking those attempts". Good stuff here EG.

Absolutely........that makes three of us.....thanks God that he does not cast us off, but whips our butts and prods us dia his spirit and the weight of his hand.....

 

[JoDel]

I have a question about that too. What sin would it be? Unbelief?

Rejection of Jesus Christ ...

 

[UnderGrace]

freewill is implied some 12,000 times in the text, and the term is used 17 times in the text...just the word "if" which implies freewill choice is found thousands of times,,everybody presupposes freewill in theior daily lives...its a no brainier

I suggest that you do some study on free will. So you are saying the knowledge and ideas from Greek philosophy can be superimposed on scripture. I highly doubt it.
We have choices to make ....free will is a loaded term and I really do not think you know what it is.

 

[willybob]

and also after 15000 posts some still have this delusion that they do not sin.....because that is what sinless perfection is. a delusion.

No one is preaching sinless perfection, that is a made up straw-man by the self proclaimed sinfull perfectionists...no one is free from ignorance or mistakes in judgement, but we can be free from the vile sins of the flesh that will disqualify one from the kingdom.......the OT day of atonement was for sins of ignorance, not willful rebellion, look it up and see for yourself..

 

[willybob]

I suggest that you do some study on free will. So you are saying the knowledge and ideas from Greek philosophy can be superimposed on scripture. I highly doubt it.
We have choices to make ....free will is a loaded term and I really do not think you know what it is.

I suggest you read the scriptures above that define such terms, and depart from your fables,,,,, some are forever learning but never come to the knowledge of the truth..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am glad you agree, of one does not need faith in all areas to be saved, Lack of faith in a few areas does not disqualify us from being Gods people.

Agreed.




I am not sure if I understood you right on this last part, , So will not assume, Just tell you what I think.

I think via the cross. God through the line, We are all or at least we were) drowning in our sin and debt, And God sent us a life preserver,

But he will not force people to take it, Those who have faith will. Those who do not will not.

The world is throwing you a line to, Its leader is satan Some grab that line, because they want it more than Gods line, and they have more faith in that line.

Sadly, most of the worlds religions, including many sects of Christianity, Have grabbed on this line thinking it is Gods line, and will get a surprise one day when they realize they grabbed the wrong line.

This would require more conversation. I agree with the Whole first part.
Not sure what you mean by "grabbing satan's line" if the person is in Church and not an atheist...a-

[
th Jews were not atheists, but they grabbed unto satans line, in the same token, just because one goes to church does not mean they have firmly grasped gods lin and he has already lifted them out, the could be trying to hold on to both lines, and in fact, they church could be a false church, so hey may not even be touching gods line, the Pharisee and Jew who followed him certainly were not touching gods line

This is where we separate. I do not think God gives people a reason to lose faith, or to lose hope. Only the world can offer you a hope that is not hope that is weak and unable to give you what it promises,, These people keep looking for hope they can not find.. Some find it in religion. Some think they have found it in some form of Christianity, But they never trusted it, These people will not last, they will walk away, Not because they lost hope. but because they never took hold and grabbed hold of the hope God offers.

then I think their are some who want to hold on to the worlds rope and Gods,, They will drown in there sin because they did not take proper Hold of Gods rope. and they slipped and fell and perished.

OK. Aren't these the people in Mathew 13:21 ?? I'd say they are.

I agree, and as Jesus said they had no root, that's why they fell, they had n foundation to hold on to, so when it got rough they fell

if you have no root, your not saved, you only saved if you place your foundation in Christ, they had no faith, so when it was tested by troubles, they walked away, how do you say it? The had no works. Their faith was dead.

To me it is the most important, Getting this part wrong has eternal consequences.

I think you have, I hope you see now why I believe the way I do concerning faith and Hope.

I understand your concern. I'm conerned that OSAS will draw many away from the true gospel.
But I wouldn't be that conerned if I were you.
Think of this,,,I've said it before...

You believe in OSAS. I do not believe you are lost.
But you believe I am because I DON'T believe in it.

So, listen...
what is it that saves a person?

Is it their CORRECT DOCTRINE
OR
Is it their faith in JESUS??


Answer this.

its faith in God, if people think God can not be trustworthy to do what he promised, hen how can they claim to have faith

sorry I tried to fix quotes, hard on an ipad

 

[Stephen63]

Jesus said paid in full

he did not say you had a down payment

No, but Paul did.

2 Corinthians 1:22
​

New International Version
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

New Living Translation
and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

English Standard Version
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

New American Standard Bible
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
2Cor 5:4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

 

[UnderGrace]

The freewill in this context means voluntary.

That is not how FranC is using free will she is using the term meaning the free will as understood by Socrates and gang. We do have choice but our will is not free...scripture tells us we are a slave to sin.

Please explain the difference, and explain why these choices are actually called freewil 17 times in the text. We still make offering to God in the new covenant but .our offerings are now spiritual sacrifices unto God said the apostle Peter, the offerings to God must be of our own free will, see below,

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savor unto the LORD, of the herd or of the flock:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Deuteronomy 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]2 Chronicles 31:14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 7:16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Ezra 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Gabriel2020]

You have heard the expression, I'm grown,I do what I wanna do, Free will my friend.