The Rapture

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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Daniel 8:11 KJVYea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Christ or antichrist?
My money is on Antiochus IV Epiphanes in this passage good buddy:cool:.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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My money is on Antiochus IV Epiphanes in this passage good buddy:cool:.
But we know the daily sacrifice was taken away by Jesus so "he magnified himself" has to be Jesus right?

Keep in mind that the old testament prophecies of Jesus are written in dark sentences.... It's not going to be easy to see him.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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But we know the daily sacrifice was taken away by Jesus so "he magnified himself" has to be Jesus right?

Keep in mind that the old testament prophecies of Jesus are written in dark sentences.... It's not going to be easy to see him.
Daniel 8:11 KJVYea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down

Knowing that this is Jesus based on the fact that Jesus took away the daily sacrifice, what was Jesus sanctuary that he brought down with him when he came?
 

J7

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Ok, so you are a self-taught dispensationalist, none of which undermines Tanakh's words,
which have great relevance, as most have imbibed their understanding from some cup or other, often unwittingly.

When something takes 40 odd years to construct, people get very attached to it. But Jesus had no qualms about tearing down the false worship centre of the Temple, and if you are in error, your work will be exposed, as wood, and earth, and burnt down too.

We can expose false teaching for what it is, folly; but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Proverbs 1:7), fools hate knowledge (Proverbs 1:22), The way of a fool is right in his own eyes (Proverbs 12:15), Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly (Proverbs 13:20), in the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride (Proverbs 14:3), the folly of fools is deceit (Proverbs 14:8), and "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool".

So, back to the seals; all the Church has been taken up at this point you say, prior to the first seal. But this is palpable nonsense, (again). After the opening of the fifth seal (Revelation 6) we see part of the Church still on earth, still awaiting martyrdom:


I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

and even funnier, the Church in heaven is asking God how long until he executes judgement on their persecutors!

I am sorry, this is laugh out loud stuff. You're telling us Jesus begins his judgement on the earth with the first seal, and here we have the Saints pleading with Jesus, after 5 seals have been broken, to execute judgement on the earth.

I kind of pity you Ahwatukee. But then I look at all the people who lap up your homespun balsa theologies, and shake my head in despair. Why do they lap them up? Because they, even if you are entirely autodidactic, are not and have imbibed dispensationalism, and your skewed misinterpretations chime a deep chord in them.

I take no pleasure in saying these things, but false teachings like yours help no-one. I will pray for you fervently my brother, because I am sure you are a nice chap, and your zeal if properly applied could be really edifying.









Tanakh, Your theory is not valid. I have never read anything by Darby, Scofield or Margret. My conclusions come through over 40 years of cross-reverencing and comparing scripture. I came to the conclusion that the church would be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

Those people mentioned above have nothing to do with the written word of God. Frankly I'm sick of hearing this repeated apologetic regarding these people being responsible for the pre-tribulation belief, as they have not one Iota of influence regarding my conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church.

It was/is a promise of Christ to all believers from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection. It is, or should be, every believers blessed hope and longing. The coming wrath of God is going to be something that is unprecedented which will be like birth pains leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, decimating the majority of the population of the earth. If the church was upon the earth during the time of God's wrath, then the blessed hope would not be a blessed hope. Nor could we comfort one another with this hope.

It amazes me at the amount of effort you people put in to try to undermine the teaching regarding the pre tribulation gathering of the church. Frankly, those who believe otherwise don't have much faith in Christ who took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Nor do they understand the coming wrath.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

"The hour of trial" is another designation for "the day of the Lord." Both are synonymous referring to the time of God's wrath. Regarding this, Jesus said "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial. The word is "ek" meaning "out of." Not through, not during, but out of that time of trial. And the way in which He will keep believers out of that time of wrath, is by descending and gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house as He promised in John 14:1-3. This promise is to the entire church, from beginning to end and not to just those in the first century.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

Those who believe in Christ, have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Yet, you and others don't understand what this entails. For if you did, you would not have the church going through the wrath of God.

"Now, brothers, about times and dates (of the resurrection and catching away) we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

"And they will not escape. But you brothers"

"But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. And how will they escape? They will escape according to what Paul previously described regarding the living being changed and caught up.

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

The bride/church receives her fine linen, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Verse 14, the armies of heaven who are riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven, are seen wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. In order to follow Christ out of heaven, you have to already be in heaven.

In Rev.17:14, we have a reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and returning with Him will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." These are those riding on the white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Neither Darby, Scofield, Margaret nor anyone else taught me the information that I just presented. It all comes straight from scripture. So please stop with this apologetic regarding these people, because along with myself and others who know the truth, we did not get our information from adopting their teachings.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Daniel 8:11 KJVYea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down

Knowing that this is Jesus based on the fact that Jesus took away the daily sacrifice, what was Jesus sanctuary that he brought down with him when he came?
Matthew 4:17 KJV
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Interesting that you guys spiritualize away so cunningly the flying scorpions,the fiery hailstones and the mark of the beast,and insist satan is bound.

but concerning the AOD.....now that really happened huh?
Spiritualize them? You are the ones turning them into flying demons. Again, they aren't scorpions, they are locusts who sting like scorpions. Can we at least agree on that?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Locusts represent armies. Check out Joel 1:4-6 or Deu 28:42. Titus' siege lasted 5 months.

Notice they don't touch those with the seal of God? The reason is those with the Seal of God had already fled the city to Pella. The ones without the seal of God were the wicked Jews trapped inside the city. Notice they want to die but can't? Hegesippus records this very truth (Book 5.1 Pg 295).

Thus by blood fire destruction hunger the sinews of the entire city were cut down. No place was free from danger, no time was found for deliberation, no hope of change, no opportunity of escape. Everything was gloomy, full of dread, full of frightfulness, lamentations everywhere, panic, everywhere the cries of women, lamentations of the aged, groans of the dying, the despair of the living, so you would say those were wretched who remained, those were happy who had died.


You don't know what the fiery hailstones the weight of a talent were? They were the stones the Roman's catapulted into the city.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Josephus provides an identical description to Rev 16:21:

Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and farther. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color.

Similar stones can be seen on top of Masada today. Funny thing is, the Jews were able to see the incoming and were able to duck them, even at night so the Romans started painting them black.



Revelation is filled with metaphors and figurative language. You have to know your OT to figure them out. Please read Deu 28:25-68 and learn that God promised to punish them with the plagues of Egypt if they did not follow His commandments. This is why John is using plague symbolism throughout Revelation but each plague has a literal meaning which can be dissected.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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Jeepers.

Matthew 21: 44 [FONT=&quot]And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Imagine having those things raining down on you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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But we know the daily sacrifice was taken away by Jesus so "he magnified himself" has to be Jesus right?

Keep in mind that the old testament prophecies of Jesus are written in dark sentences.... It's not going to be easy to see him.
Please read some commentaries on Dan 8. I'll look some up for you when I get a chance.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Please can a pre-tribber look at this verse?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now find me the passages in the OT prophets where all the plagues of Revelation are found and show me that they are future. I can show you that just about every prophet discusses the end of Israel and is discussing the events of 66-70 AD and most do this last.

Israel comes to life in Genesis and dies in Revelation. Hello!!
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Please read some commentaries on Dan 8. I'll look some up for you when I get a chance.
No need for commentaries, but thank you for the offer. I realize that Gabriel tells Daniel what the vision means and this is why I bring this up. I see the possiblity of a lot of that chapter being about Jesus, but like I said before, those are dark sentences and it's hard to see what the meaning is. Maybe there are two sides to that story and Gabriel only explains the one side or maybe I don't understand Gabriel's explanation as well as I think I do.

I doesn't matter to me whether I'm right or wrong about it being Jesus, I just want to hash it out with my friends.:)
 
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Ok, so you are a self-taught dispensationalist, none of which undermines Tanakh's words,
which have great relevance, as most have imbibed their understanding from some cup or other, often unwittingly.

When something takes 40 odd years to construct, people get very attached to it. But Jesus had no qualms about tearing down the false worship centre of the Temple, and if you are in error, your work will be exposed, as wood, and earth, and burnt down too.

We can expose false teaching for what it is, folly; but fools despise wisdom and instruction (Proverbs 1:7), fools hate knowledge (Proverbs 1:22), The way of a fool is right in his own eyes (Proverbs 12:15), Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly (Proverbs 13:20), in the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride (Proverbs 14:3), the folly of fools is deceit (Proverbs 14:8), and "he that uttereth a slander, is a fool".

So, back to the seals; all the Church has been taken up at this point you say, prior to the first seal. But this is palpable nonsense, (again). After the opening of the fifth seal (Revelation 6) we see part of the Church still on earth, still awaiting martyrdom:


I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

and even funnier, the Church in heaven is asking God how long until he executes judgement on their persecutors!

I am sorry, this is laugh out loud stuff. You're telling us Jesus begins his judgement on the earth with the first seal, and here we have the Saints pleading with Jesus, after 5 seals have been broken, to execute judgement on the earth.
But you see in reality nobody is a self-taught dispensationalist, you can not read the Bible in its plain sense and come away thinking that the Church is not in the tribulation.
They 'spiritualize' away if you will and say that those are "tribulation saints" which again is weird because if the Holy Spirit is that who restrains and is taken out of the way (taking God out of the way HOW?) to make it possible for the antichrist to rise up. Well the second someone becomes a Christian wouldn't the Holy Spirit be right back there to put an end to the antichrist? Not to mention that prior to trouble there is no indication whatsoever in the book of Revelation of a rapture taking out the believers, this is pure imagination and there is not a single verse mentioning a rapture pre-trib.

The only verse they have is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 which they like to quote and somehow they claim that this is a separate event even though it specifically mentions the Lord coming down (descending).
The same language can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:23 which lays out the order of resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Clearly it will occur at "Christ's coming" the only way dispies can make this about the rapture is they create another coming, one FOR the Church and another WITH the Church, however this is not specifically mentioned anywhere.

So J7 I agree, this is hip hop theology, nobody in Church history believed like this, sad how popular it has become due to the hope and sensationalism it provides. News paper in one hand and the Bible in another.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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@ PW & J7

Daniel 8:11-12 KJV
Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

[12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Assuming this is the Antichrist, what is the Antichrist's sanctuary that was cast down?
How did it (the Antichrist host) cast down the truth?
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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The Ram is MedoPersia, the Goat is Greece.

you need to see episode 2 and episode 7 to understand episode 8
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The Ram is MedoPersia, the Goat is Greece.

you need to see episode 2 and episode 7 to understand episode 8
Are those kings literal kings? If they're literal, then what does it mean that the he goat "touched not the ground"? I take this to mean it's the spiritual force behind Grecia. What do you think it means?

Daniel 8:5 KJV
And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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Tanakh, Your theory is not valid. I have never read anything by Darby, Scofield or Margret. My conclusions come through over 40 years of cross-reverencing and comparing scripture. I came to the conclusion that the church would be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

Those people mentioned above have nothing to do with the written word of God. Frankly I'm sick of hearing this repeated apologetic regarding these people being responsible for the pre-tribulation belief, as they have not one Iota of influence regarding my conclusion of the timing of the gathering of the church.

It was/is a promise of Christ to all believers from the on-set of the church right up to the resurrection. It is, or should be, every believers blessed hope and longing. The coming wrath of God is going to be something that is unprecedented which will be like birth pains leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, decimating the majority of the population of the earth. If the church was upon the earth during the time of God's wrath, then the blessed hope would not be a blessed hope. Nor could we comfort one another with this hope.

It amazes me at the amount of effort you people put in to try to undermine the teaching regarding the pre tribulation gathering of the church. Frankly, those who believe otherwise don't have much faith in Christ who took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Nor do they understand the coming wrath.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

"The hour of trial" is another designation for "the day of the Lord." Both are synonymous referring to the time of God's wrath. Regarding this, Jesus said "I will keep you 'out of' the hour of trial. The word is "ek" meaning "out of." Not through, not during, but out of that time of trial. And the way in which He will keep believers out of that time of wrath, is by descending and gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house as He promised in John 14:1-3. This promise is to the entire church, from beginning to end and not to just those in the first century.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

Those who believe in Christ, have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Yet, you and others don't understand what this entails. For if you did, you would not have the church going through the wrath of God.

"Now, brothers, about times and dates (of the resurrection and catching away) we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

"And they will not escape. But you brothers"

"But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping. And how will they escape? They will escape according to what Paul previously described regarding the living being changed and caught up.

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

The bride/church receives her fine linen, white and clean in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Verse 14, the armies of heaven who are riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven, are seen wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb. In order to follow Christ out of heaven, you have to already be in heaven.

In Rev.17:14, we have a reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and returning with Him will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." These are those riding on the white horses following the Lord out of heaven.

Neither Darby, Scofield, Margaret nor anyone else taught me the information that I just presented. It all comes straight from scripture. So please stop with this apologetic regarding these people, because along with myself and others who know the truth, we did not get our information from adopting their teachings.
Your tirade speaks volumes. But then if I had spent forty years being deluded I would probably feel the same. Fortunately for me I dumped my Pre Trib beliefs long before then. As for the people I mention having nothing to do with the word of God well that is going to be a suprise to a huge number of Baptists round the world. In particular those who studied at Spurgeons College here in Britain. The reason Darbys name crops up so often is that he Edward Irving and Cyrus Schofield were the leading Promoters of this teaching. no one else of any note had ever heard of it before they came on the scene. It seems very odd that you and others claim to have been alone and isolated from all outside influence when this Damascas like revelation came to you. Because most Pre Tribbers I know or heard about have been influenced by their Pasters. Books and videos.
 
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J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
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Are those kings literal kings? If they're literal, then what does it mean that the he goat "touched not the ground"? I take this to mean it's the spiritual force behind Grecia. What do you think it means?

Daniel 8:5 KJV
And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
King means King/Kingdom.

"21 [FONT=&quot]And the rough goat is the king(dom) of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander)."

[/FONT]
It means it has a spiritual dimension, as it is now messing with heavenly things. The war of the Maccabees was all about faithful Jews versus Hellenized jews who enjoyed all the Greek stuff like idols, manpleasure and paedophilia
 
Nov 23, 2013
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King means King/Kingdom.

"21 And the rough goat is the king(dom) of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Alexander)."

It means it has a spiritual dimension, as it is now messing with heavenly things. The war of the Maccabees was all about faithful Jews versus Hellenized jews who enjoyed all the Greek stuff like idols, manpleasure and paedophilia
Ok, I see it differently but that's ok... let's continue. When did the transgressors come to the full? In my view the trangressors are the bad Jews. Their trangression came to the full with the crucifixtion of Christ.

Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
 

J7

Banned
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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Ok, I see it differently but that's ok... let's continue. When did the transgressors come to the full? In my view the trangressors are the bad Jews. Their trangression came to the full with the crucifixtion of Christ.

Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
How?

Gabriel explains it to him:

[FONT=&quot]20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.[/FONT]
 
Nov 23, 2013
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How?

Gabriel explains it to him:

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Daniel 8:23 KJV
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is at a later time in their kingdom, it is the time when he shall destroy the mighty and holy people... this is the time of Jacob's trouble isn't it?

Daniel 8:24 KJV
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.