Are you RIGHTEOUS?

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FranC said:
God expects works because He Always did.
Click to expand...

no one said otherwise, your he only one screaming people say otherwise,

your talking to no one, because no would say Jesus does not expect works,

 
eternally-gratefull said:
for someone who Denys she teaches works, that's all you ever talk about


If works are are required to keep someone saved, we are saved by works, period!
Click to expand...

EG

You talk a lot but you don't say anything.

Could you at least tell us all what "works" are?

Do you do any?
 

So then God expects works, according to what you are saying and your understanding of scripture, FOR salvation?

If you believe this just state it outright I have no problem with you being candid about it.

As you know I do not agree, nor do I believe scripture supports it, but then at least I understand your point of view.

As I see it, it only can be one way or the other, either our works are part of our salvation or they are not?

FranC said:
God expects works because He Always did.

When He created Adam and Eve didn't He tell Adam to be the steward over the garden? Is this not a work?
Didn't God Always demand obedience? All throughout the O.T. AND the N.T.

Jesus abolished the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law.
He DID NOT abolish the Moral Law.
Which would be impossible since God IS MORALITY. Just as God IS LOVE. He cannot go against Himself.

So if Jesus did not abolish the Moral Law, The Ten Commandments, are we not OBLIGATED to follow them?

So then we hear talk of the Old Covenant (Mosaic) and the New Covenant.

And therein is the difference. I've asked some here many times to explain the difference between the O.C and the N.C. but they never do.

Know why?

They'd have to admit that NOTHING CHANGED except the METHOD by which we could adhere to the moral law.

In the O.C. the Israelites tried to follow the commandments with their own strength. THEY COULD NOT.

With the N.C. we still have to follow the commandments but Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to HELP US, not to DO EVERYTHING FOR US.

Plus, we WANT to follow the moral law because we love Jesus for having died for us. He has saved us from the power of satan and for this we're so grateful. The parable of the two debtors...

People were saved even in the O.T...... by faith. Just like now.
So Jesus did not die just to save us. It has to go Beyond that.

We're stopped in our walk because we DON'T GO BEYOND THAT.

Jesus didn't want only faith. He wants a transformation. He wants us to become New Creatures. But not only in words, in reality. This is a "work" we have to do in conjuntion with God. We MUST cooperate. God is not doing it all for us.

Also, Jesus died and sacrificed Himself to open the doors of heaven. No one could go to heaven before, not even saved persons.

We are truly free if we can understand the above.
Some here make it too complicated.

Are works required as per Jesus Himself?
YES.

Why?
Because God demands obedience.

Are we Always going to obey?
NO.

Are we still under satan's power?
NO.
Click to expand...
 
FranC said:
NOTICE that in Mathew 7:23 Jesus states, very plainly, WHO He never knew...

"DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

That seems pretty clear to me.

And I'm not even getting into the idea that JESUS DID NOT EXPLAIN SALVATION THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND IT TODAY.

This is an unknown concept at that time and immediately after and not untill just a few hundred years ago did this idea come into existance. It was not a part of the original biblical understanding.

Not in the way we understand it today.

Please show me some verses that make it clear that Jesus understood salvation the way we do.
That all we have to do is believe in Him and we'll be saved.
That it's not necessary for us to do anything except believe.

PLEASE DO THIS.

Don't just keep copying and pasting the same ole' stuff.
Click to expand...

yes, he sad he never knew them, not that they lost salvation, they never had it

yet they did he works of God, and tried to use it to get god to let them into heaven,

he is speaking the pharisees. Religious legalists, who think their works will save them, but all they have is self righteous works which is sin.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
no one said otherwise, your he only one screaming people say otherwise,

your talking to no one, because no would say Jesus does not expect works,

Click to expand...

I'm responding to someone who asked me WHY we should do works.

Why don't YOU answer her??
Instead of attacking me post after post.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
yes, he sad he never knew them, not that they lost salvation, they never had it

yet they did he works of God, and tried to use it to get god to let them into heaven,

he is speaking the pharisees. Religious legalists, who think their works will save them, but all they have is self righteous works which is sin.
Click to expand...

Well, self-righteous works don't save, do they?
I never said they do.
No work saves you.

They're just really good at KEEPING you saved.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
no one said otherwise, your he only one screaming people say otherwise,

your talking to no one, because no would say Jesus does not expect works,

Click to expand...

Amen......a few still fail to understand that we have no issue with works other than they are not required to get, keep or maintain salvation......how hard is it to understand that any work is the result of salvation that one already possesses by faith....I mean...it is not that difficult to understand.....
 
UnderGrace said:

So then God expects works, according to what you are saying and your understanding of scripture, FOR salvation?

If you believe this just state it outright I have no problem with you being candid about it.

As you know I do not agree, nor do I believe scripture supports it, but then at least I understand your point of view.

As I see it, it only can be one way or the other, either our works are part of our salvation or they are not?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "for salvation"?

Works are not necessary for salvation or to GET US SAVED.

Ok. Now we're saved.
Now we're in the Kingdom of God.
Now God expects us to act like the citizens that we are.

It's easy. Do you not WANT to do good works?

If the asnwer is YES, why does it matter WHY you want to do these good works?

God makes you want to do them and you should do them.

Some here make it seem like you have a choice, like you're saved by faith and that's all that is needed.

Is this what you believe?
 
So then back to my question how much work keeps you saved?

If there is a certain amount, you were never saved to begin with...can you see that this is illogical.


FranC said:
Well, self-righteous works don't save, do they?
I never said they do.
No work saves you.

They're just really good at KEEPING you saved.
Click to expand...
 
　
Rom 10:8　 But what does it say? "The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart." This is the message about faith that we are proclaiming:　


Rom 10:9　 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.　


Rom 10:10　 For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.　
Rom 10:11　 The Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will never be ashamed."
　
Rom 10:12　 There is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on him.　


Rom 10:13　 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
　
Rom 10:14　 How, then, can people call on someone they have not believed? And how can they believe in someone they have not heard about? And how can they hear without someone preaching?　


Rom 10:15　 And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are
those who bring the good news!"　




Rom 10:16　 But not everyone has obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah asks, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
　
Rom 10:17　 Consequently, faith results from listening, and listening results through the word of the Messiah.
　
Rom 10:18　 But I ask, "Didn't they hear?" Certainly they did! In fact, "Their voice has gone out into the whole world, and their words to the ends of the earth."
　
Rom 10:19　 Again I ask, "Did Israel not understand?" Moses was the first to say, "I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that doesn't understand."
　
Rom 10:20　 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who were not looking for me; I was revealed to those who were not asking for me."

　
Rom 10:21　 But about Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and rebellious people."　
 
FranC said:
EG

You talk a lot but you don't say anything.

Could you at least tell us all what "works" are?

Do you do any?
Click to expand...
Same ole same old, I have told you many times, as usual you ignore everything everyone says

a work is doing gods will to serve others, vs doing something to serve self, it is done out of faith in God to do fwhat r you in excess, and give you the freedom to serve others, even those you hate.


If if I am working to maintain salvation for example, I am working to promote self or for self gain, not working for the benefit of others, so those would be self righteous works. Or works of unrighteousness, or sin.

2 people could serve the homeless, and give a lot to them, yet one be in sin

the 1 who does it expecting nothing in return, as gratitude for god who gave his life and all he had for them it is a work of righteousness because he does it out of the root of faith,

The 1 who did it so people could look at how great he is, to get puffed up, or to maintain salvation, to him it is sin, because he is doing it from r self, not out of love


I will copy and save this also for next time you say I never told you what works are, ok?
 
Israel disobeyed because they remained in unbelief.

It's so easy that men stumble on the stone.
 
Now you are saying something different? I am confused.

Backing out of the "why".....the why is essential, what would I tell the person to whom I am sharing the gospel.

He/She asks. Why should I follow the ten commandments?

Me: No reason...the why does not matter.... just do it

FranC said:
What do you mean by "for salvation"?

Works are not necessary for salvation or to GET US SAVED.

Ok. Now we're saved.
Now we're in the Kingdom of God.
Now God expects us to act like the citizens that we are.

It's easy. Do you not WANT to do good works?

If the asnwer is YES, why does it matter WHY you want to do these good works?

God makes you want to do them and you should do them.

Some here make it seem like you have a choice, like you're saved by faith and that's all that is needed.

Is this what you believe?
Click to expand...
 
dcontroversal said:
Amen......a few still fail to understand that we have no issue with works other than they are not required to get, keep or maintain salvation......how hard is it to understand that any work is the result of salvation that one already possesses by faith....I mean...it is not that difficult to understand.....
Click to expand...

You have a lot of problems with works if the above is true.
You deny that God Always EXPECTED man to follow His commandments.

THEY ARE REQUIRED TO KEEP SALVATION.

Go back and check out all the IF's in the N.T.
I will no longer post them for you.
You should know them if you know the bible well.

Plus, you never did Mathew.
Incredible.
It's because YOU CANNOT.
The truth would come out. There is NO WAY to explain away many verses...
YOU can only explain away one at a time. How do you twist around a Whole section of a book.

Maybe one day we'll do Galatians.
A book that is speaking to the Jews and to
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW

It does change to
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
 
FranC said:
Well, self-righteous works don't save, do they?
I never said they do.
No work saves you.

They're just really good at KEEPING you saved.
Click to expand...

if they have t keep you saved, they save you

stop fooling yourself into thinking they are different.
 
I have posted this many times before to the same people but it just gets dismissed by them constantly and they are free to believe what ever they want about subjects but I will not interact with them and go down rabbit trails just to argue with them. They can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they choose.

It is their right to believe what they will but I will preach boldly the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work for us.

I will post this again in the belief that it will help the viewers of this thread to trust in Christ's finished work of love and grace towards them. I'll leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit who will bear witness of the truth of Christ Himself within our spirits.

Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ.

The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along. Eph. 2:10

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.


Notice that both types of people are "building the house" - those that are doing the good work of building "by the Lord" and those doing it by themselves "doing the good works" of building the house.
 
Last edited:
I am not sure you will answer, but what church teaches this?

I am very curious.

FranC said:
You have a lot of problems with works if the above is true.
You deny that God Always EXPECTED man to follow His commandments.

THEY ARE REQUIRED TO KEEP SALVATION.

Go back and check out all the IF's in the N.T.
I will no longer post them for you.
You should know them if you know the bible well.

Plus, you never did Mathew.
Incredible.
It's because YOU CANNOT.
The truth would come out. There is NO WAY to explain away many verses...
YOU can only explain away one at a time. How do you twist around a Whole section of a book.

Maybe one day we'll do Galatians.
A book that is speaking to the Jews and to
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW

It does change to
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
Click to expand...
 
FranC said:
You have a lot of problems with works if the above is true.
You deny that God Always EXPECTED man to follow His commandments.

THEY ARE REQUIRED TO KEEP SALVATION.

Go back and check out all the IF's in the N.T.
I will no longer post them for you.
You should know them if you know the bible well.

Plus, you never did Mathew.
Incredible.
It's because YOU CANNOT.
The truth would come out. There is NO WAY to explain away many verses...
YOU can only explain away one at a time. How do you twist around a Whole section of a book.

Maybe one day we'll do Galatians.
A book that is speaking to the Jews and to
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW

It does change to
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH
Click to expand...

No Fran...they are not required to keep that which is eternally given by faith and grace as a gift.....I have no issue with works....they do not save or keep saved....END OF STORY
 
Grace why is so hard to understand. Grace is a gift. Jesus is our righteousness, He is our joy He is our Love.
Grace without Love is not really Grace
If in any way you feel like you owe God something for what he's done, I.E pray more tithe more give more, be more, work more, if you have to continually think about the works that you will do

you then are trying to repay something that you never could pay .

If you constantly speak of your love for God, you are missing thee greatest gift that The Father gave us.

That was the gift of his love. Grace is neverr excepted nor believed until you understand His love for You
 
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