Not By Works

[PeterJens]

the last paragraph, some of us do this with you on a regular basis. and, the last paragraph is what you do, perfectly described, so it seems as if you got " a taste of your own medicine" !

by the way, maybe you could ask some of the muslims you talk with to stop destroying Europe, then get into the Gospel after they are not actively trying to conquer and kill you......

Lol. I wonder if you have ever done door to door or street witnessing?
I think if you had tried to engage with the arguments, you would find the arguments
do not change, but people love to hold to them as if they are killer points, while failing
to appreciate the core issues. You will then suddenly realise it is more about background
preparation and personal love and compassion demonstrated than the arguments themselves.

If love and compassion is missing, one has nothing but points on a chess board. And many
will disengage their brains and just play a story long prepared which will speak of things that
are not relevant.

So the environment is not different than here. But will you take Jesus at His word and listen
to the Holy Spirit speaking through your conscience. As Paul says

So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man.
Acts 24:16

They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
1 Tim 3:9

But this is what sinner fail to appreciate and will run and find another way of
appeasing their conscience rather than walking in the ways of Christ.

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Eph 4:15-16

 

[PeterJens]

Nice embellishment..........par for the course with those who work their way to no where....

dc - if you say believing in Christ is not "listening, understanding and following Christ" you
are not a christian.

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1 John 5:2

It is amazing to me that anyone who claims to know Jesus yet is deaf to His words.

 

[Ariel82]

John 12
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

1 Corinthians 15

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[UnderGrace]

The faith at the point of salvation, I cannot see as being a gift from God, that was not my experience, although experience is subjective so I will leave that aside.

Faith at the point of salvation is believing the gospel, God does not do that for us, we have to believe.

The word conjure is not appropriate, we do make a decision to believe, this belief is faith in what God says is true, that we are totally lost and we need a Saviour. I choose to believe, that is not a boast because faith is not a work and all can choose to believe so I have done nothing beyond what any other person can do.

Our faith pleases God.

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6

If faith is a gift, and grace is from God and eternal life is from God then the statement above is a lie and God is only a master puppeteer choosing who to save and who to damn.

Now as a born again believer Romans 12 twelve tells about a measure of faith given to the believer, that is different, that is for service.

Well sister, the same question to you then. As stated, it is kind of semantical, but WHERE does YOUR Faith come from if it is not a gift from God?
I mean the answer is pretty self evident. We don't conjure up that faith in our own mind and strength do we?

And why can't God give more than one gift?

 

[dcontroversal]

dc - if you say believing in Christ is not "listening, understanding and following Christ" you
are not a christian.

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1 John 5:2

It is amazing to me that PETER claims Christ yet embellishes the word to push a dogma that the bible does not teach while being deaf to the words of Jesus.

What I am saying is you embellished and added your own words to produce your own café blende gospel....the words you added are NOT found in that verse....you really should pay attention to the fact that when you embellish with your own words or flavor.....that is exactly what Satan did in the garden.........and the prophets of old who were not called of God to address Israel.....Biblical Christians do not EMBELLISH the word as you have done to make it imply what it does not imply!!

Fixed your statement by the way.

Bible--->For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in
Him may not perish but have everlasting life.

Peter's embellishment-->For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in
Him ( listens, understands and follows Him ) may not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[UnderGrace]

My point is this...

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11:6

Jesus more than once acknowledged those that believed and was very pleased. You saying He gave them that gift?

What is your point?....I fully agree salvation and eternal life are gifts of God.......I also know that faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts from God.....as a matte of fact...anything GOOD is a gift from God

 

[PeterJens]

What I am saying is you embellished and added your own words to produce your own café blende gospel....the words you added are NOT found in that verse....you really should pay attention to the fact that when you embellish with your own words or flavor.....that is exactly what Satan did in the garden.........and the prophets of old who were not called of God to address Israel.....Biblical Christians do not EMBELLISH the word as you have done to make it imply what it does not imply!!

dc - the point of quoting scripture is to show the summary of a position.
I was providing the meaning and background behind the words. After seeing some using
only one brain cell draw the wrong conclusions, interpreting words in the wrong way, you
have got to wonder whether they have anything for breakfast.

And as I demonstrated, the word does imply obedience, listening and following is what
believing means.

 

[dcontroversal]

My point is this...

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11:6

Jesus more than once acknowledged those that believed and was very pleased. You saying He gave them that gift?

What does the bible say is the source of faith....?

Faith comes by_______________________________________________________!

 

[PeterJens]

A quick side note

With believers in a house group, normally what I share comes with a massive assumption
on the foundational understanding in Christ.

On cc, you cannot do this, because there is no agreement on the foundations.
It is demonstrated by a dualist posting like a believer being a new creation growing in
faith, love and reality into the image of Christ, and not actually a perfect Jesus with a
corrupt worldly flesh that drags them into continual sin.

Or putting simple points to be responded to as if there is some ulterior motive behind the
truth that is deceptive, as if truth works like this.

 

[Meggido]

Just questions....

a. Does the description of a lost man found in Romans sound like anyone who has faith?
b. What does God dealing to everyman a measure of faith mean?
c. What does Jesus being dealt faith without measure mean?
d. Is God the source of ALL things spiritual?
e. What does FAITH to FAITH mean?
f. What does the following mean..JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of OUR faith?

For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

To be clear, I am answering you in terms of saving faith only, not general faith...saving faith, the gift of faith in 1 COr 12 and ROmans 12.3 is not saving faith.

a. Does the description of a lost man found in Romans sound like anyone who has faith?<<<<Romans 1 says man knows God, but chooses to ignore him and worship the creation, instead of the creator...therefore man is without excuse if he claims ignorance and that he has no saving faith in him already.

b. What does God dealing to everyman a measure of faith mean?<<<<<<in context of Romans 12.3 it has to do with gifts we are born with, in Context of Romans 1 it has to do with faith we already have, that is activated through conviction of the Holy Spirit.


c. What does Jesus being dealt faith without measure mean?<<<<If you are referring to John 3.34, faith is not even mentioned, a measure of the spirit is. Please confirm what scripture says that Jesus was dealt faith without measure, I am not aware of one.

John 3.34-
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.



d. Is God the source of ALL things spiritual?<<<<<Yes, I am not saying God does not give us faith, but in the context that saving faith is Jesus own personal faith to save us and given at conviction, I do not see that in the Bible, I see that saving faith was already given to us...

e. What does FAITH to FAITH mean?<<<<<<<that walking righteous is completed by "personal" faith from start to finish...again this is personal faith, not the saving faith of Jesus...I think some here think the gift of faith is Jesus personal faith and I do not see that anywhere in the Bible


f. What does the following mean..JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of OUR faith?<<<<<<<<<proper context of verse 2 is given in verse 1 and Chapter 11....This means when our personal faith is tested and tried and we feel like quitting we should remember those who have gone before us and are rooting for us in the great cloud of witnesses and that we should keep our eyes on how Jesus own personal faith got him through his own trial....

The KJV Bible does a very poor job on Hebrews 12.2 and Gal 2.20 and many other scriptures son this topic....the NASB and most other versions render the Greek words correctly...
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith,

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 8

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

More than Conquerors
(Psalm 44:1-26)

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

*****

No offense, though I love all the scriptures referenced I don't see how it says our "fruit" is "disciples". I do know that the FRUIT of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness and self control.

 

[Meggido]

The first bolded seems to contradict your second bolded.........

No it does not....

I have not coveted or stolen in 25+ years...am I prefect? or perfectly renewed by the word?

I have not used profanity in over a month...am I prefect or perfectly renewed by the word.

 

[Ariel82]

No it does not....

I have not coveted or stolen in 25+ years...am I prefect? or perfectly renewed by the word?

I have not used profanity in over a month...am I prefect or perfectly renewed by the word.

Perfect as in spiritually mature or sinless?

 

[Meggido]

I agree Maggedo that many do not see themselves as God does. If they did then their lives would truly be transformed because they would realise the power and glory God has created them to bem

this is absolute truth and well stated....but many prefer battling it out...

 

[Meggido]

What is your point?....I fully agree salvation and eternal life are gifts of God.......I also know that faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts from God.....as a matte of fact...anything GOOD is a gift from God

Nobody disputes this....Some here suggest that saving faith is not their own and really Jesus own personal faith that saves you and keeps you......

 

[Meggido]

When are people gonna realize that there is no such thing as hyper grace?? The bible says NOTHING about hyper grace at all. Grace is grace, and that's all. Nothing hyper to it. We cannot add to or take away from grace, just as we cannot add to or take away from the Word of God.. People who believe in hyper grace are sorely and gravely deluding themselves..

I agree. I dislike the term hyper grace...

The Bible does say that grace was and is being turned into lasciviousness [Jude 4]

This means that certain men teach that it is ok to do whatever you want to and live like hell, because Grace covers the sin. It also means that people put grace above Jesus Christ and what he did for them and we are starting to see that and big time in several well known public ministries...

 

[Meggido]

John 12
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

1 Corinthians 15

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

keep studying girl...

 

[Meggido]

What does the bible say is the source of faith....?

Faith comes by_______________________________________________________!

hearing the spoken word of Christ, not the Bible... The Greek for Word here is Rhema not logos....

 

[PeterJens]

Perfect as in spiritually mature or sinless?

What I love about this discussion, is without Jesus and His love working in our hearts,
the possibility would not exist. As protestants our history is the history of the holiness
movements which are now being compromised by these new interpretations and distortions,
which imply God is not interested in our walk as a holy people, conforming to the image of
Christ.

 

[Meggido]

Perfect as in spiritually mature or sinless?

Perfect as in spiritually mature