Not By Works

PHart · Jul 22, 2017

Right.
But works are how we know you have believed unto everlasting life.

Without the proof of salvation that accompanies salvation you will be judged at the Judgment as being a goat, not a sheep, and you will be shipped off to fry in the lake of fire.

That's not a works gospel. Works is defined as trying to earn peace with God through works of righteousness. What we've been saying is works prove you possess the gospel of salvation by faith apart from works.

FranC · Jul 22, 2017

Cee said:

Cee,

You posted a scripture that supports works.

Hebrews 10:26

Hebrews 10:26-37 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering.

33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.

34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[c]

This is what Paul is saying:

1. IF we keep on sinning, there is no further sacrifice apart from Jesus. HE is the last sacrifice.

If we don't do what Jesus taught are we sinning? I believe so.
So we are not only doing works because we love the Lord and want to please Him,
We're ALSO doing works because NOT doing them is a sin. DISOBEYING GOD IS A SIN.
Think of Adam.

2. Are we trampling the Son of God underfoot when we preach that works ARE A SIN.

This is what you post.

"FAITH + WORKS do NOT = Salvation"

IF JESUS told us He wants us to do works, are we not sinning to teach the above equation?

3. We are exhorted to PERSEVER, which means that it's possible NOT TO PERSEVER,

and WHY?

so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised

IF WE PERSEVER TILL THE END WE WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE HAS PROMISED.

We should teach what the bible teaches, not what we'd like it to teach.

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

PHart said:

AND what I am saying is JESUS was clear....EVERYONE who believes in the one who was sent has done the WORK of the FATHER......

FAITH ALONE ETERNALLY SAVES, SEALS, JUSTIFIES and SANCTIFIES in CHRIST POSITIONALLY FOREVER!

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

FranC said:

Cee,

You posted a scripture that supports works.

Hebrews 10:26

Hebrews 10:26-37 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering.

33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.

34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”[c]

This is what Paul is saying:

1. IF we keep on sinning, there is no further sacrifice apart from Jesus. HE is the last sacrifice.

If we don't do what Jesus taught are we sinning? I believe so.
So we are not only doing works because we love the Lord and want to please Him,
We're ALSO doing works because NOT doing them is a sin. DISOBEYING GOD IS A SIN.
Think of Adam.

2. Are we trampling the Son of God underfoot when we preach that works ARE A SIN.

This is what you post.

"FAITH + WORKS do NOT = Salvation"

IF JESUS told us He wants us to do works, are we not sinning to teach the above equation?

3. We are exhorted to PERSEVER, which means that it's possible NOT TO PERSEVER,

and WHY?

so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised

IF WE PERSEVER TILL THE END WE WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE HAS PROMISED.

We should teach what the bible teaches, not what we'd like it to teach.

More HEBREWS 10 yanked out of context and hung on a working for dogma.....

Sully · Jul 22, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Aint it cool to be free?

stonesoffire · Jul 22, 2017

PHart said:

With the born again experience there should be an instant change. But, after a period of what's been called that first zeal, comes the battle of renewing our mind. Replacing old thoughts with the Word. The Word is our chastening. Or more accurately Spirit and Word together will correct thinking, and that reveals who and what we are in Christ Jesus. Grace then empowers us to live as wanting to please God. Not appease.

When we realize God is our Father...planned salvation before creation...and loves us the way Only He can...how can we not live to please Him.

All power to live is through sanctification by Holy Spirits presence within us. The works should be witnessing to others. And it's not us who draws, but the testimony of the Cross, for when we lift Him up...He draws all.

If one continues to live a sinful lifestyle after stating they believe, I think scripture explains this as the ground not
good yet to receive the seed.

Hope this makes sense...am hurrying...gotta go..

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

For the workers for, law keepers and sinless perfectionists....

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty where with Christ hath made us free,
and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Gal. 5:1.

PHart · Jul 22, 2017

TruthTalk said:

I don't see self righteousness in the church today. I see the exact opposite. I see lots of people who think the 'faith' that doesn't change them into people who do righteous works somehow possess the faith that saves all by itself apart from works. That's not what the Bible says. The person who practices unrighteousness is just that--unrighteous. They do not have Christ's righteousness through faith in God's forgiveness. Their lives prove it. They will be burned up at the Judgment, not saved.

God has warned us. There's no excuse to continue in a dead faith that can not save, folks. Seek the faith that saves! The faith that finds it's expression in the obedience of love (Galatians 5:6), that is the faith that justifies. The faith that does not love in obedience to God is the 'faith' that can not save (James 2:14-17). For it is a faith that has not changed you into a born again person that has the new nature of God.

This is not a plea to do works to earn your salvation. This is a plea to have the faith that produces works--the faith that saves. He who has ears let him hear.

PHart · Jul 22, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Exactly!
Do not do works to get right standing with God!
Have the faith that gets right standing with God--the faith that changes you into a person who does works of righteousness.

Gabriel2020 · Jul 22, 2017

HEBREWS ;6; 10; For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love,which ye have shown toward his name,in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. ACTS;10; 35'; But in every nation he that feareth him,and worketh righteousness, is excepted with him. The disciples worked by faith, the apostles worked by faith. preaching and teaching what God put in their hearts to do. Not working for the world, but for the kingdom of God to bring men out of darkness. the true works.

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

PHart said:

In case you missed it.....and for the sake of all who read....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

AND what I am saying is JESUS was clear....EVERYONE who believes in the one who was sent has done the WORK of the FATHER......

FAITH ALONE ETERNALLY SAVES, SEALS, JUSTIFIES and SANCTIFIES in CHRIST POSITIONALLY FOREVER!

FranC · Jul 22, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Dcon

FAITH ALONE DOES NOT SANCTIFY!

I'm not going thru that again.

YOU should know enough theology to know that his is absolutely NOT TRUE.

For those reading along, I'll just say that SANCIFICATION is a cooperative work between God and the person that is already saved.

IF we live like those that Paul speaks of in 1 Co 5:9-13
or, your favorite book, Ephesians 5:17-21

How could we ever attain Sanctification ??

Paul tells the Ephesians what we are to live like.
He said we are to be IMITATORS OF GOD.
Ephesians 5:1

HOW can we be imitators of God and live as in Ephesians 5:1-14
if we do NOT cooperate with God to BECOME sanctified??

You plainly say in your statement that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.

Please explain why Jesus spent practically His Whole ministry teaching us how we are TO BE.

Please find some verses where Jesus says we need do nothing and we'll still be saved.
And please remember what the word BELIEVE means while you're at it.
You do love to FORGET what it means.
And some Others here too...

PHart · Jul 22, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Christ has a different opinion about that in Matthew 25:31-46. The faith he'll be looking for at the Judgment has legs and arms attached, not just lip service.

We know if we were saved at the moment of our confession of faith by whether or not we then can show the reality of that faith in a life of ever increasing right living. John says the one who says he knows him but does not live in obedience to God's command to love IS A LIAR. I didn't say it, John did.

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

FranC said:

Dcon

FAITH ALONE DOES NOT SANCTIFY!

I'm not going thru that again.

YOU should know enough theology to know that his is absolutely NOT TRUE.

For those reading along, I'll just say that SANCIFICATION is a cooperative work between God and the person that is already saved.

IF we live like those that Paul speaks of in 1 Co 5:9-13
or, your favorite book, Ephesians 5:17-21

How could we ever attain Sanctification ??

Paul tells the Ephesians what we are to live like.
He said we are to be IMITATORS OF GOD.
Ephesians 5:1

HOW can we be imitators of God and live as in Ephesians 5:1-14
if we do NOT cooperate with God to BECOME sanctified??

You plainly say in your statement that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.

Please explain why Jesus spent practically His Whole ministry teaching us how we are TO BE.

Please find some verses where Jesus says we need do nothing and we'll still be saved.
And please remember what the word BELIEVE means while you're at it.
You do love to FORGET what it means.
And some Others here too...

Sure it does Fran....not my fault you are blind to it........maybe read Hebrews in CONTEXT..........and understand the word and it's DUAL USAGE....then you might figure it out!

FranC · Jul 22, 2017

Gabriel2020 said:

This is very true.
Some don't understand the Kingdom of God.
Which is what Jesus preached, NOT getting saved.

We should have a thread on this.

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

PHart said:

Really....If you believe with your HEART that God has raised him fro the dead and CONFESS with YOU MOUTH thou shalt be saved....

Yes indeed he does accept LIP SERVICE.....and it equates to SALVATION.....

Desertsrose · Jul 22, 2017

Magenta said:

Hi Magenta,

No, not at all. The command originates from the OT, but now that Jesus is here in the flesh, he gives new life to the command that couldn't take place before His birth.

Here's what John Piper says.
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another.” I see two answers implied in this verse.

The key to the answers is found in the words in the second half of the verse: “. . . just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.” The newness of the command to love each other is found in the words “as I have loved you.

”I see two ways that the commandment to love each other is new in those words. First, the command is new because it is a command to live out the love of Jesus.

Second, the command is new because it is a command to live on the love of Jesus. The words “as I have loved you” contain a pattern for our love for each other, and they contain a power for our love for each other.

Loving each other is not a new command per se. It was already there in the Old Testament (Leviticus 19:18, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”). What’s new is that Jesus is now the pattern we live by and the power we live on.

FranC · Jul 22, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Could you stop accusing me of taking verses out of context and please exegete
Hebrews 10:26-37 for us?

I did this.
You NEVER do this.
And yet you accuse me of taking verses out of context.

PLEASE SHOW HOW I'VE TAKEN THESE VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT.

Thanks.

(of course, you never do because you know I'm interpreting them CORRECTLY)

PHart · Jul 22, 2017

FranC said:

Dcon

FAITH ALONE DOES NOT SANCTIFY!

I'm not going thru that again.

YOU should know enough theology to know that his is absolutely NOT TRUE.

For those reading along, I'll just say that SANCIFICATION is a cooperative work between God and the person that is already saved.

IF we live like those that Paul speaks of in 1 Co 5:9-13
or, your favorite book, Ephesians 5:17-21

How could we ever attain Sanctification ??

Paul tells the Ephesians what we are to live like.
He said we are to be IMITATORS OF GOD.
Ephesians 5:1

HOW can we be imitators of God and live as in Ephesians 5:1-14
if we do NOT cooperate with God to BECOME sanctified??

You plainly say in your statement that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.

Please explain why Jesus spent practically His Whole ministry teaching us how we are TO BE.

Please find some verses where Jesus says we need do nothing and we'll still be saved.
And please remember what the word BELIEVE means while you're at it.
You do love to FORGET what it means.
And some Others here too...

I'm passing the baton off to you to run with it now. I've spent too much time in the forum today, lol.

dcontroversal · Jul 22, 2017

For those who deny that Christ SANCTIFIES us positionally in Christ! The same who deny that sanctification is DUAL in usage....the same who believe their works save and that salvation can be lost or forfeit...all false I might ADD.....

After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. <----PAST TENSE

Not By Works

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