Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I know that i am saved through Gods Grace, and i understand that i am only saved because He put the desire in my heart and called me to His Son Jesus...When i first came to this thread, i also shook my head thinking people were saying works saved, but through pages of things being explained, i understand now that you Fran and a few others are NOT saying works keep us saved, but works are to follow once we have been saved and as i go deeper in to my Bible i also can see this, my works i do do not keep me saved but they are things done for God, everything we do we must do it to glorify God lest any man should boast, i believe that somewhere in between the two sides who are battling, one side is deaf and the other blind, is there anyone out there who can actually see this from both sides, i can but i can`t quiet put my finger on it, please don`t shoot me, i am but the messenger
...xox...
Abiding in Christ is a "position" we have because we are in Christ and He is in us. There is no such religious nonsense that Jesus is a liar and telling us He is kicking us out of Him. It's a deception from the enemy and a completely false teaching and it is a part of the reason why the church is in the mess that it is in the natural way of looking at it.
It has been fed a steady diet of religious nonsense like Christ kicks us out of Himself and thus Christians have been left as babies and of course there are those that say their loving Father then throws them into hell.
It has been fed a steady diet of religious nonsense like Christ kicks us out of Himself and thus Christians have been left as babies and of course there are those that say their loving Father then throws them into hell.
I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Notice that both are "building the house".
One with the Lord doing the building through and in them - the other doing the work their own way.
What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.
Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.
Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.
I won't speak for the others but as far as works or fruit go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works/fruit" of a believer.
Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.
Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15
The life of the Vine supplies the "sap"needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.
Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action. - we are fighting the good fight of faith
Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.
We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30
Psalm 127:1 (NASB)
Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.
Notice that both are "building the house".
One with the Lord doing the building through and in them - the other doing the work their own way.
I know that i am saved through Gods Grace, and i understand that i am only saved because He put the desire in my heart and called me to His Son Jesus...When i first came to this thread, i also shook my head thinking people were saying works saved, but through pages of things being explained, i understand now that you Fran and a few others are NOT saying works keep us saved, but works are to follow once we have been saved and as i go deeper in to my Bible i also can see this, my works i do do not keep me saved but they are things done for God, everything we do we must do it to glorify God lest any man should boast, i believe that somewhere in between the two sides who are battling, one side is deaf and the other blind, is there anyone out there who can actually see this from both sides, i can but i can`t quiet put my finger on it, please don`t shoot me, i am but the messenger ...xox...
...xox...
Galatians was clear....WORKS do not save, keep saved, facilitate salvation, embellish salvation, finish off salvation......and they fail to acknowledge that JESUS said that the work of the FATHER is to BELIEVE on him whom he sent....
there is no deafness and or blindness on our part...the bible is clear...SALVATION is a ONE off process of faith, it is eternal, it is maintained by JESUS, we are kept by the power of GOD and saved to the uttermost
THEY do not believe that and teach that salvation can be LOST or FORFEIT......if that is the case then salvation is based upon something we DO or DO NOT DO.....that equates to a works based salvation regardless of how it gets sliced and diced....
the answer would be the same. When we see or perceive the goodness of the Lord, it breaks our rebellion.
Theres a minister I used to get monthly tapes from who has an awesome revelation of Jesus and His work. Lynn Hiles. I was listening to one and saw Him in a new way that I ended up crying for a long time. All I could say was, I didn't know Lord, forgive me.
I know what I just said by experience.
Theres a minister I used to get monthly tapes from who has an awesome revelation of Jesus and His work. Lynn Hiles. I was listening to one and saw Him in a new way that I ended up crying for a long time. All I could say was, I didn't know Lord, forgive me.
I know what I just said by experience.
Exactly.....and that equates to a works based salvation......no matter how they slice and dice......my bible does not teach that...it teaches that salvation is based upon faith, is a once for all eternal application, we are kept by the power and work of Christ, saved to the uttermost and sealed UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.....<---BY FAITH thru GRACE.........!
Your Unbreakable Union with Christ
Some Christians understand their union with the Lord but only half way. “Sure, God is with us, but sometimes he isn’t. He comes and he goes.” It’s true that in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon certain people at certain times, but that was then and this is now.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit abides with us and makes his home with us (John 14:16–17). By home he means home. You are not a motel room for the Lord. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit. He is not going anywhere.
“Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is with me even when I sin?” Yes! Christ’s love for you and his union with you is stronger than any sin.
Under the old covenant, sinning was your fast track to disunion. If you sinned you risked being cut off from the people of God.
Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it (Matthew 5:29–30). Why did Jesus preach self-amputation to those born under the law?
Because under that covenant it made sense to talk about removing those parts of the body that might contaminate the whole. Thank the Lord the old covenant is gone! We are not under law but grace, and this is good news for the members of the body of Christ.
When we sin, Jesus does not cut us off; we remain members of his body. This totally changes the way we look at sin.
Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Corinthians 6:15b)
Under the old covenant we were restrained from sin through mortal terror but in the new we are restrained by love. Look again at Paul’s warning about prostitutes. Behind the warning—don’t do it—there is a surprising and reassuring affirmation of union. Paul is saying it is possible, though not advisable, to unite the members of Christ’s body with prostitutes.
Do you see it? Earthly marriages may break and fail, but your union with Christ is unbreakable. Sin cannot break it. Addiction cannot break it. The stupidest decisions you might ever make cannot break it.
This should not be taken as a challenge to see what you can get away with but as a stunning declaration of Christ’s absolute commitment to love you and stick with you no matter what. This is what changes us—not the weak influence of the rule, but the relentless and determined passion of his love.
The love of God is the greatest force in the universe. Sin wilts before it. When you encounter the undaunted and unending love of Christ, it changes you. You no longer want to sin. The passing pleasures of this world lose their appeal because you have found a love that is truer and better by far.
.Extracted from chapter 4 “Union,” The Gospel in Ten Words.
Some Christians understand their union with the Lord but only half way. “Sure, God is with us, but sometimes he isn’t. He comes and he goes.” It’s true that in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon certain people at certain times, but that was then and this is now.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit abides with us and makes his home with us (John 14:16–17). By home he means home. You are not a motel room for the Lord. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit. He is not going anywhere.
“Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is with me even when I sin?” Yes! Christ’s love for you and his union with you is stronger than any sin.
Under the old covenant, sinning was your fast track to disunion. If you sinned you risked being cut off from the people of God.
Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it (Matthew 5:29–30). Why did Jesus preach self-amputation to those born under the law?
Because under that covenant it made sense to talk about removing those parts of the body that might contaminate the whole. Thank the Lord the old covenant is gone! We are not under law but grace, and this is good news for the members of the body of Christ.
When we sin, Jesus does not cut us off; we remain members of his body. This totally changes the way we look at sin.
Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Corinthians 6:15b)
Under the old covenant we were restrained from sin through mortal terror but in the new we are restrained by love. Look again at Paul’s warning about prostitutes. Behind the warning—don’t do it—there is a surprising and reassuring affirmation of union. Paul is saying it is possible, though not advisable, to unite the members of Christ’s body with prostitutes.
Do you see it? Earthly marriages may break and fail, but your union with Christ is unbreakable. Sin cannot break it. Addiction cannot break it. The stupidest decisions you might ever make cannot break it.
This should not be taken as a challenge to see what you can get away with but as a stunning declaration of Christ’s absolute commitment to love you and stick with you no matter what. This is what changes us—not the weak influence of the rule, but the relentless and determined passion of his love.
The love of God is the greatest force in the universe. Sin wilts before it. When you encounter the undaunted and unending love of Christ, it changes you. You no longer want to sin. The passing pleasures of this world lose their appeal because you have found a love that is truer and better by far.
.Extracted from chapter 4 “Union,” The Gospel in Ten Words.
A
I don't like you analogy of a gas gauge, but I also don't believe you teach a works based salvation gospel.
You are very strongly against easy believism and feel strongly motivated to encourage people to hold fast to the faith and walk in obedience to Jesus.
Sometimes your encouragement takes the form of clubbing folks over the head, but they just swing back at you so I figure y'all are just boxing or having a brotherly wrestling match...,
I believe God gives us the gas/oil, we choice how we want to burn/spend it. Do we invest in the good things in our life that promote love and godliness or do we drive off into the desert after the mirage of a city made of gold?
You are very strongly against easy believism and feel strongly motivated to encourage people to hold fast to the faith and walk in obedience to Jesus.
Sometimes your encouragement takes the form of clubbing folks over the head, but they just swing back at you so I figure y'all are just boxing or having a brotherly wrestling match...,
I believe God gives us the gas/oil, we choice how we want to burn/spend it. Do we invest in the good things in our life that promote love and godliness or do we drive off into the desert after the mirage of a city made of gold?
S
Your Unbreakable Union with Christ
Some Christians understand their union with the Lord but only half way. “Sure, God is with us, but sometimes he isn’t. He comes and he goes.” It’s true that in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon certain people at certain times, but that was then and this is now.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit abides with us and makes his home with us (John 14:16–17). By home he means home. You are not a motel room for the Lord. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit. He is not going anywhere.
“Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is with me even when I sin?” Yes! Christ’s love for you and his union with you is stronger than any sin.
Under the old covenant, sinning was your fast track to disunion. If you sinned you risked being cut off from the people of God.
Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it (Matthew 5:29–30). Why did Jesus preach self-amputation to those born under the law?
Because under that covenant it made sense to talk about removing those parts of the body that might contaminate the whole. Thank the Lord the old covenant is gone! We are not under law but grace, and this is good news for the members of the body of Christ.
When we sin, Jesus does not cut us off; we remain members of his body. This totally changes the way we look at sin.
Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Corinthians 6:15b)
Under the old covenant we were restrained from sin through mortal terror but in the new we are restrained by love. Look again at Paul’s warning about prostitutes. Behind the warning—don’t do it—there is a surprising and reassuring affirmation of union. Paul is saying it is possible, though not advisable, to unite the members of Christ’s body with prostitutes.
Do you see it? Earthly marriages may break and fail, but your union with Christ is unbreakable. Sin cannot break it. Addiction cannot break it. The stupidest decisions you might ever make cannot break it.
This should not be taken as a challenge to see what you can get away with but as a stunning declaration of Christ’s absolute commitment to love you and stick with you no matter what. This is what changes us—not the weak influence of the rule, but the relentless and determined passion of his love.
The love of God is the greatest force in the universe. Sin wilts before it. When you encounter the undaunted and unending love of Christ, it changes you. You no longer want to sin. The passing pleasures of this world lose their appeal because you have found a love that is truer and better by far.
.Extracted from chapter 4 “Union,” The Gospel in Ten Words.
Some Christians understand their union with the Lord but only half way. “Sure, God is with us, but sometimes he isn’t. He comes and he goes.” It’s true that in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit came upon certain people at certain times, but that was then and this is now.
Jesus said the Holy Spirit abides with us and makes his home with us (John 14:16–17). By home he means home. You are not a motel room for the Lord. You are a walking, talking, living, breathing temple of the Holy Spirit. He is not going anywhere.
“Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is with me even when I sin?” Yes! Christ’s love for you and his union with you is stronger than any sin.
Under the old covenant, sinning was your fast track to disunion. If you sinned you risked being cut off from the people of God.
Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it (Matthew 5:29–30). Why did Jesus preach self-amputation to those born under the law?
Because under that covenant it made sense to talk about removing those parts of the body that might contaminate the whole. Thank the Lord the old covenant is gone! We are not under law but grace, and this is good news for the members of the body of Christ.
When we sin, Jesus does not cut us off; we remain members of his body. This totally changes the way we look at sin.
Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Corinthians 6:15b)
Under the old covenant we were restrained from sin through mortal terror but in the new we are restrained by love. Look again at Paul’s warning about prostitutes. Behind the warning—don’t do it—there is a surprising and reassuring affirmation of union. Paul is saying it is possible, though not advisable, to unite the members of Christ’s body with prostitutes.
Do you see it? Earthly marriages may break and fail, but your union with Christ is unbreakable. Sin cannot break it. Addiction cannot break it. The stupidest decisions you might ever make cannot break it.
This should not be taken as a challenge to see what you can get away with but as a stunning declaration of Christ’s absolute commitment to love you and stick with you no matter what. This is what changes us—not the weak influence of the rule, but the relentless and determined passion of his love.
The love of God is the greatest force in the universe. Sin wilts before it. When you encounter the undaunted and unending love of Christ, it changes you. You no longer want to sin. The passing pleasures of this world lose their appeal because you have found a love that is truer and better by far.
.Extracted from chapter 4 “Union,” The Gospel in Ten Words.
A
Only parables I know I read in the Bible. It comes from not growing up attending children's Sunday schools.
The ones about ants don't make any sense, but don't get stressed. Its really not that big a deal.
I just disagree with the picture because it seems to create a false one of election by God to arbitrary "like" one team and not another without giving the true reasons why.
I would rather talk of rates and wheat or sheep and goats. Then at least there is a logical reason why God rejects one and accepts another group. Truthfully though if asked about grace, I would speak about the lost sheep or coin. How God leaves the 99 to go and find the lost one and bring him or her home safely. To me that illustrates God's love and grace and is tangible and biblical.
The ones about ants don't make any sense, but don't get stressed. Its really not that big a deal.
I just disagree with the picture because it seems to create a false one of election by God to arbitrary "like" one team and not another without giving the true reasons why.
I would rather talk of rates and wheat or sheep and goats. Then at least there is a logical reason why God rejects one and accepts another group. Truthfully though if asked about grace, I would speak about the lost sheep or coin. How God leaves the 99 to go and find the lost one and bring him or her home safely. To me that illustrates God's love and grace and is tangible and biblical.
A
It is not your ability in Christ but Christ's ability in you.
That my friend is grace.
oops I used the word again.
How is that grace?
God empowers us by the Holy spirit to live godly lives.
I don't see the difference you are trying to make between what you said and what Stephen said. Could you clarify?
I liked most of his post but didn't "like" it because I wasn't sure if I agreed that "faith" is the talent buried in the ground in the parable he infers. Always thought of it as spiritual gifts or blessings from God, but it could be a measure of faith...but faith in what?
Anyway...how is God empowering of His children to chose and taking personal responsibility for their lives and action, a bad thing?
Do you believe in personal responsibility?
And there is that one pesky point I can't accept - the thought that abiding is a "work." Abiding is an obedience of faith. I think that defense of OSAS has done away with the faith part. God is the one who has chosen to save by grace THROUGH faith and abiding in that faith.
And we are told that faith is not of ourselves so no man can boast (as we've seen happen when a man takes the attitude of: I chose correctly so I'm goin to heaven and you chose uncorrectly so you're going to hell) so if that faith isn't of myself, how is it that you think it's by something I have done?
I can only walk by what light I have received, but I can't understand how OSAS then makes walking by that light to be a great evil.
In painting the hairs on frogs, you lose sight of the whole. It cannot be that abiding is a work in the manner that you define a work. That necessitates removing abiding. To save the construct, you remove picking up your cross and following.
I don't mean that you personally actually do that. I mean that your construct has to do that.
And we are told that faith is not of ourselves so no man can boast (as we've seen happen when a man takes the attitude of: I chose correctly so I'm goin to heaven and you chose uncorrectly so you're going to hell) so if that faith isn't of myself, how is it that you think it's by something I have done?
I can only walk by what light I have received, but I can't understand how OSAS then makes walking by that light to be a great evil.
In painting the hairs on frogs, you lose sight of the whole. It cannot be that abiding is a work in the manner that you define a work. That necessitates removing abiding. To save the construct, you remove picking up your cross and following.
I don't mean that you personally actually do that. I mean that your construct has to do that.