Not By Works

Ariel82 · Jul 31, 2017

I believe in eternal security in that God loves us so much that He will teach us to live Godly lives by His Holy spirit.

I admit a few folks might not seek to bear fruit of walking with the Holy spirit, but wouldn't it be easier to avoid those people?

Every one I have taken the time to talk to seek to bear fruit and do good works to glorify God.

The only difference is....do they believe they must do it or lose their salvation (Fran keeps trying to force folks to say "works are necessary for salvation") or do they do good because God first loved and forgave them and they ARE SAVED (works are a fruit of having already obtained salvation through the adoption and seal of the Holy spirit)?

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Sully said:

Likewise....Worker is a trigger term, lets also dispense with it....

You do what everyone else does...circle back to initial salvation.....

1 Cor 1.4-8

[SUP]4 [/SUP]I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, [SUP]5 [/SUP]that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]8 [/SUP]who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Technically, I really do not need the box checked or insurance at all...The Spirit bears witness to me I am a Son of God....and the Spirit keeps me, right?

Ariel82 · Jul 31, 2017

Meggido said:

I wasn't calling the Gospel complicated. I was saying having multiple conversations with many people from different walks of life about the Gospel and the Bible can be complicated. Especially when people add ad hominem attacks to the conversation,

Oh and everyone having their own pet crusade to fight certain false doctrines and seeing it in others posts when it's not there.....that makes the conversation complicated also.

Sully · Jul 31, 2017

Meggido said:

Fair enough, done.

This sounds like an accusation of Calvinism. I've had to leave this site for months due to arguing against the falsehood I believe to be Calvinism. Please clarify.

Where's the contradiction?

Ariel82 · Jul 31, 2017

Meggido said:

That is because we have people from both extremes. We have go the works salvationist and hyper grace/easy believism teachers on this thread.

Then we have people who fall somewhere in the middle.

I have found it pointless to talk to the two extremes but believe those in the middle can dialog and find common ground in biblical grace and faith to obtain salvation and biblical doing of good works to glorify God and become mature members of the Body of Christ.

I believe in eternal security. So where would you place me I wonder?

My insurance or box would be "have you received the Holy spirit that proclaims you a child of God after having confess with your mouth and believed in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and rose again?"

If folks have the Holy spirit, know how to pray and listen....God can correct their thinking as needed.

Though he does tell us to rebuke and teach sometimes.

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Eternal security dismisses believers apostasy......the Bible teaches Believers apostasy in great detail...the spirit of error in eternal security comes about because many think God is simply to good to send anyone to hell....some eternal security specialists have failed to remember that God does not send people to hell...people and their unbelief send them to hell.....some current grace alone and easy believing theologies today are cleverly disguised as universal-ism...

Biblical eternal security is predicated upon covenant relationship and abiding.....If you Know Jesus and Father and they know you...you have nothing at all to worry about....

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Sully said:

None...I have a habit of posting the entire passage, not 1 verse....It's the teacher in me...nothing you did, sorry if that was the perception
[/QUOTE]

....

Ariel82 · Jul 31, 2017

I agree universalism is unbiblical.we have a few "universalist christians" on the forum.

Which is why people need to recognize that there are more than TWO groups and start talking to individuals instead of blanket "us" versus "them" statements.

The division is GOD versus the lies the world has taught all of us.

Sully · Jul 31, 2017

Meggido said:

There is no walk without confidence, only fear.

Ariel82 · Jul 31, 2017

I define salvation as restored right relationship with God and us......so you can't be saved without having a true personal relationship with God.

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Ariel82 said:

this is covenant relationship...You desire God and he desires you and the redemptive work of Christ ratifies the relationship...

Now Jesus & Father never divorce anyone, nor do they leave them......but people divorce Jesus & Father all the time....

John Wesley called this divorce, apostasy, and said it could be final and there were only 2 reasons for a permanent fall from grace, willful unconfessed sin and actual expression of apostasy....Wesley believed that most apostasy was not final....and could be rectified....he stated this, because it is what the Bible teaches...

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Sully said:

Not following this..come again...

Sully · Jul 31, 2017

Meggido said:

If I have to meet some ambiguous work ethic to be saved, I'll never have confidence in my walk. Not saying that's what you are advocating but there are many here who do. That is where things get real on this thread.

PennEd · Jul 31, 2017

This may shock some, but to those that believe you can lose your Salvation, after receiving Jesus, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I absolutely agree with you.YOU CAN!!

However I can't lose the Salvation God has given me, BECAUSE I KNOW THE ONE WHO GAVE IT TO ME, JESUS CHRIST.

I love Him, and I find it ludicrous, and insulting to say that my eternal assurance means I can or even want, to go out and live any way my flesh directs me.
The exact OPPOSITE is true! I am so blown away by His mercy, and Grace, and Love, that I WANT to live for Him.
I only wish all my brothers and sisters could have this revelation.

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

Sully said:

Ok, thank you...been a very long day....

Works do not give me confidence in my salvation walk....knowing I have the Son does....1 John 5 bears this out....

Works for me are instinctive actions based on what he did for me...the same for bearing fruit that remains...I do not view works as me keeping anything given to me....I believe I was given talents and must maximize the investment...

We had an amazing and very powerful service last Friday night...108 came to service and we had 15 decisions for Jesus Christ.....This is not the exception it is the norm....The Girl that preached is a fruit we bore 2 years ago.....and she has remained and is bearing her own fruit that remains....

None of us, including her do works as confidence in what Jesus did....we are past that knowledge, we do not take it for granted but the foundation was laid, now we bear much fruit.....

When I was in the world I could drink myself sober...and I think many people do that same thing with Salvation...they simply over think it to the point it consumes them and the defense of it, becomes the gospel, when the world is waiting for them to step out and bear much fruit...

hope this made sense...

Meggido · Jul 31, 2017

PennEd said:

this is covenant relationship and I do not disagree with it...you will likely never divorce Jesus or father....but to say some won't...is where its gets real sad...because many do....even Jesus did not save everyone he met.....Jesus never, ever chased down the rich young ruler....he let him go....

sevenseas · Aug 1, 2017

getting back to the heart

as it is, as a man thinketh (in his heart) so is he...has something changed? is the heart thinking here?

seat of the intellect? every source I look up, backs up what I and others said

so as someone else said, pages of bloviation and moo there you go

simply stated as this article states further down, the heart refers to the entire inner being of people

yet, the Bible says to renew our minds. now why is that? maybe get to the heart of the matter

we have a lack of comprehension and some are seeing that as missing some deep spiritual application when there is none

so many things are simple and simply said, yet there is this class of ultra spirituals here that turn themselves into a pretzel trying to give deeper meaning to simple things

we even have a Greek toss for those so inclined, at the end of the post

if you don't understand this, so be it.

THE HEART AND THE MIND ~ WHAT THE BIBLICAL WORD “HEART’ MEANS (NOTABLE WORK)

Introduction (7/2014)

In both the Old Testament (OT) and the New Testament (NT) the word “heart” is used to refer to the whole of the innermost part of the human, NOT merely the emotions. CulturallyHowever, in the twenty-first century English the word “heart” is used to express the emotions as an individual compartment of the inner part of the human.
It is common for Americans to divide humans into the physical and the metaphysical. While this is a widespread insight, the way most Americans compartmentalize the internal (metaphysical) aspect of humans is diverse from many other cultures.

We Americans tend to see people as having two separate parts, wherein one part is the emotions, which we refer to as the heart, then a brain, which houses the mind. The Bible does not divide man so easily – it focuses on all three making up the whole of a being – this is Biblically called the “heart.” BiblicallyWhen both the Old and New Testaments speak about the heart, it never means merely human feelings (emotions).
The Biblical word “heart,” is the inner aspect of a man, made of three parts all together, with the primary part: the,

1) Mental Process, which is the major part (where action & reaction take place), which is to lead a person in their life.

2) Emotions (which only process as reaction), as icing to enrich our lives

3) Will, the seat of the will (discretionary, volitional, decision-making) where decisions are made between the rational and the emotive.

The following excerpts, though thorough, are by no means exhaustive.

Strong’s DictionaryAccording to Strong’s, the Hebrew word lebab (3824) is rendered: “heart” (as the most interior organ); “being, think in themselves,” “breast,” “comfortably,” “courage,” “midst,” “mind,” “unawares,” and “understanding.”

Strong’s Greek Dictionary, states that the Greek word kardia (2588) is rendered: “heart,” i.e. (figuratively), the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle.1

willybob · Aug 1, 2017

2 Cor. 6-1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

The very essence of the gospel is that of reconciliation and covenant relationship, whereas man works together with God to obtain a relationship of love that cannot possibly be achieved by any other means…..IF NOT, one receives the grace of God with emptiness, having no salvation effect (vanity)……

The working dynamics of faith found in Phillipians 2-12,13….
…We work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and God’s influence which works/energeo (energises) in us to do His good pleasure….. (salvation 101)

be blessed

Jackson123 · Aug 1, 2017

It look like salvation require work, but it is not. It is faith alone.

For example if if a man accept Jesus and die in the next second, I believe he is save.

but I believe, there is correlation between faith and work. The more you have faith in Jesus, the more you produce the fruit.

And the fruit is love

The last judgement in Matt 25 look like requirement work of love to go to heaven, but if we read the whole bible, it is the fruit, not something we can produce, branch can bear fruit of itself

Also not work in the sense of ritual, or sabbath keeper, no. Work in the sense of love the needy.

catholic seem interperate work as a ritual babtism, ritual communion etc, it is not count in the last hudgement as Jesus Himself informed us, how He will judge human

Let me repeat it is work of Love

Read matt 25, what kind of work Jesus talking about

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

in my country, people heat the poor, some parent tell to the children to end his girlfriend or boyfriend being poor, people in my country proud of wealth.

Jesus want us to love the poor, it is difficult task for Indonesian.

Jesus said I was stranger and you invite me in

Some people in my country are racist. They do not like stranger Ido not know what happen in the last judgment

willybob · Aug 1, 2017

Magenta said:

its the earnest of integrity, in that God is faithful, however its no guarantee, that was invented by Reformationists like Luther etc..man MUST do his part (faithful works of love) and remain obedient to the covenant, and he that endures to the end the same shall be saved said Jesus, lest he receive the grace of God in vain, said Paul.....

Jesus said he would have gathered them in like a mother hen does with her chicks under her wings, (It was His desire that they should be gathered), BUT they were NOT WILLING....God CANNOT circumvent mans freewill to chose whom he will serve...

Knowing this first: God only sees the future as reality, therefore possibilities are not certaintoies and that is reality...

be blessed

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