The Generations

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

The genelogy of Jesus is not the most exciting teachings in the bible I have to agree nonetheless it is of value and importance. Both accounts in the gospels of Luke and Matthew can be confusing to read they both seem to move at times up and down the geno tree.

IMO it's been more enjoyable and informative to start at King David with his son (Solomon) (Matt 1:6b) David's fourth son while in Jerusalem and his tenth son overall. From Solomon proceeding through the fourteen generations up to the exile to Babylon, fourteen generations from after the exile to Babylon to Christ.

proceeding back down the geno tree on Mary's side of the family from Mary's father (Heli) there are forty generations to (Nathan) King David's 3rd son while in Jerusalem and David's ninth son overall.

Then continuing down the geno tree (Matt 1:6a) David's father Jesse there are fourteen generations from King David to Abraham and twenty generations from "Torah" Abraham's father, to Adam.

I've the used the NIV here for English simplify, the peoples names may differ than your translation of the bible but with any bible one can follow along through the same verses here in this thread.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

Mt1:1
A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Mt1:17
Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David,
Fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

(14) ~ generations ~ Mt1:6b: (1st) David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,

Mt1:7
(2nd) Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
(3rd) Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
(4th) Abijah the father of Asa,

Mt1:8
(5th) Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
(6th) Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
(7th) Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

Mt1:9
(8th) Uzziah the father of Jotham,
(9th) Jotham the father of Ahaz,
(10th) Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

Mt1:10
(11th) Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
(12th) Manasseh the father of Amon,
(13th) Amon the father of Josiah,

Mt1:11 and (14th) Josiah the father of (Jeconiah) and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

(14) ~ generations ~ Mt1:12
After the exile to Babylon:
(1st) Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
(2nd) Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

Mt1:13
(3rd) Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
(4th) Abiud the father of Eliakim,
(5th) Eliakim the father of Azor,

Mt1:14
(6th) Azor the father of Zadok,
(7th) Zadok the father of Akim,
(8th) Akim the father of Eliud,

Mt1:15
(9th) Eliud the father of Eleazar,
(10th) Eleazar the father of Matthan,
(11th) Matthan the father of Jacob,

Mt1:16
and (12th) Jacob the father of (13th) Joseph,
the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus,
who is called (14th) Christ.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

(40) ~ generations ~ Lk3:23
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old, when he began his ministry. [Baptism]
He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, and the son of (40th) Heli, [Mary’s father]

Lk3:24
the son of (39th) Matthat,
the son of (38th) Levi,
the son of (37th) Melki,
the son of (36th) Jannai,
the son of (35th) Joseph,
Lk3:25
the son of (34th) Mattathias,
the son of (33rd) Amos,
the son of (32nd) Nahum,
the son of (31st) Esli,
the son of (30th) Naggai,
Lk3:26
the son of (29th) Maath,

the son of (28th) Mattathias,
the son of (27th) Semein,
the son of (26th) Josech,
the son of (25th) Joda,
Lk3:27
the son of (24th) Joanan,
the son of (23rd) Rhesa,
the son of (22nd) Zerubbabel,
the son of (21st) Shealtiel,
the son of (20th) Neri,
Lk3:28
the son of (19th) Melki,
the son of (18th) Addi,
the son of (17th) Cosam,
the son of (16th) Elmadam,
the son of (15th) Er,
Lk3:29
the son of (14th) Joshua,
the son of (13th) Eliezer,
the son of (12th) Jorim,
the son of (11th) Matthat,
the son of (10th) Levi,
Lk3:30
the son of (9th) Simeon,
the son of (8th) Judah,
the son of (7th) Joseph,
the son of (6th) Jonam,
the son of (5th) Eliakim,
Lk3:31
the son of (4th) Melea,
the son of (3rd) Menna,
the son of (2nd) Mattatha,
the son of (1st) Nathan,
the son of David,

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

(14) ~ generations
Mt1:6a: and (13th) Jesse the father of (14th) King David. Lk3:32a: the son of Jesse,

Mt1:5c: (12th) Obed the father of Jesse, Lk3:32b: the son of Obed,
Mt1:5b: (11th) Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Lk3:32c: the son of Boaz,
Mt1:5a: (10th) Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Lk3:32d: the son of Salmon,

Mt1:4c: (9th) Nahshon the father of Salmon, Lk3:32e: the son of Nahshon,
Mt1:4b: (8th) Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Lk3:33a: the son of Amminadab,
Mt1:4a: (7th) Ram the father of Amminadab, Lk3:33b: the son of Ram,

Mt1:3c: (6th) Hezron the father of Ram, Lk3:33c: the son of Hezron,
Mt1:3b: (5th) Perez the father of Hezron, Lk3:33d: the son of Perez,
Mt1:3a: (4th) Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar, Lk3:33e: the son of Judah,

Mt1:2c: (3rd) Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, Lk3:34a: the son of Jacob,
Mt1:2b: (2nd) Isaac the father of Jacob, Lk3:34b: the son of Isaac,
Mt1:2a: (1st) Abraham was the father of Isaac, Lk3:34c: the son of Abraham,

(20) ~ generations
Lk3:34d: the son of (20th) Terah,
Lk3:34e: the son of (19th) Nahor,

Lk3:35
the son of (18th) Serug,
the son of (17th) Reu,
the son of (16th) Peleg,
the son of (15th) Eber,
the son of (14th) Shelah,
Lk3:36
the son of (13th) Cainan,
the son of (12th) Arphaxad,
the son of (11th) Shem,

the son of (10th) Noah,
the son of (9th) Lamech,
Lk3:37
the son of (8th) Methuselah,
the son of (7th) Enoch,
the son of (6th) Jared,
the son of (5th) Mahalalel,
the son of (4th) Kenan,
Lk3:38
the son of (3rd) Enosh,
the son of (2nd) Seth,
the son of (1st) Adam,
the son of God.

Kavik · Jul 31, 2017

The two lines are different from each other due to Levrite marriages; as a result, they don't quite coincide with one another.

The general rule of thumb is that one line is Joseph's, the other Mary's. One new school of thought, which I particularly like, is that they are both Joseph's; one line is his paternal, the other his maternal.

Considering that no where in the Bible are Mary's parents ever even named, it seems a bit odd that we'd conveniently have her lineage all the way back. That they're both Joseph's lines makes a bit more sense.

Royalty, nobility, etc. comes from the paternal line. All Mary really does, with respect to any genealogy, is establish that Jesus was Jewish, as one's 'Jewsihness' was matrilineal. His paternal line would establish him as belonging to the house of David thus being in line (theoretically at least) for the literal "King of the Jews".

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

Kavik said:

Good post thanks for the addition, speaking of the Levite marriage I assume you are speaking on the Heli generations with the two Levi names in the geno, though surely I haven't read everything in the bible about the tribes of Levi, if there's a mentioning of this tribe and the descendants I would enjoy reading on the info indeed and this may help understand more about the 40 generations between Nathan the ninth son of the house of David and (Heli) and the two Levi generations within that account.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

On a side note, the bible doesn't mention if God really used one of Mary's eggs or not, so both of the parents could be just a symbolic account of the genealogy.

garee · Jul 31, 2017

:

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Generation a beginning or called Genesis . The Mathew is in respect to the generation of Christ as those born again of the spiritual, eternal seed, one (Christ) not seen .

The Luke account the generation of Adam in respect to the corrupted seeds, as that seen, many. Two generations. One evil the generation of natural unconverted (marked by 666) and the other a new creation.

shrume · Jul 31, 2017

BeyondET said:

If that's true, then Jesus Christ is not a descendant of David at all. The Bible says that he is.

I believe that Matthew presents Jesus' genealogy through Mary, and that the "Joseph" in Matt 1:16 is Mary's father, not her husband. Matthew specifies that there are three groups of 14 generations. If the Joseph in v16 is her husband, then there are only 13 generations between Shealtiel and Jesus.

I am fully aware that most people believe Matthew is Jesus' genealogy through Joseph, and Luke's is through Mary. I believe the opposite is the truth.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

garee said:

Makes sense, in Matthew has just some of the linage of David to Abraham as well along with the Luke account.

Intersting thing as well is that solomon became King after his father David had died, this could be as well the king linage from that side too.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

shrume said:

Interesting take, though some of what you mentioned would make void somethings in the bible, you say Joseph wasn't Mary's husband, then the account of the angel coming to him in a dream and Joseph taking Mary into his home and marrying Mary would be void I'd assume because I don't think if Joseph was Mary's father yet he married his own daughter that's alittle odd, yea there are some odd accounts in the OT but I can't see this as being something that happened, second going to Bethlehem because Joseph was the descendent of Jacob. But I'm not feeling the Joseph as being Mary's father as having weight.

In Matthew 1:6 Solomon father is David 1 and 2 generations thus Christ being the fourteenth as stated in Matt 1:17

shrume · Jul 31, 2017

BeyondET said:

Interesting take, though some of what you mentioned would make void somethings in the bible, you say Joseph wasn't Mary's husband, then the account of the angel coming to him in a dream and Joseph taking Mary into his home and marrying Mary would be void I'd assume because I don't think if Joseph was Mary's father yet he married his own daughter that's alittle odd, yea there are some odd accounts in the OT but I can't see this as being something that happened, second going to Bethlehem because Joseph was the descendent of Jacob. But I'm not feeling the Joseph as being Mary's father as having weight.

In Matthew 1:6 Solomon father is David 1 and 2 generations thus Christ being the fourteenth as stated in Matt 1:17

Two Josephs. One was Mary's father, the other her husband.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

shrume said:

Could be though that would be a reach, there's no mentioning of two Joseph, I assume folks really aren't sure who (Heli ) is, it's in linage right there around Mary and Joseph so he's somebody it's not clearly stated who, I don't think Jesus had two male fathers at the same time unless one was Jesus father in law, which seems logical as why his mentioned in my opinion.

shrume · Jul 31, 2017

BeyondET said:

The Bible does not need to explicitly state that the two Joseph's (Matt 1:16 and 1:19) are different men.

I think the Bible clearly states that Heli was Joseph's (Mary's husband) father (Luke 3:23).

Of course Jesus did not have two male fathers. His Father is God.

Jesus' actual, literal mother was Mary.

Mary's father was named Joseph (Matt 1:16), as was her husband (Matt 1:19), who was also Jesus' stepfather.

Again, count the generations. If the Joseph in Matt 1:16 is Mary's husband, there are only 13 generations between Shealtiel and Jesus. The Bible says there are three groups of 14 generations, not 14, 14, 13.

The word translated "husband" in Matt 1:16 is "aner", and it means "adult human male". It is generally translated "man" or "husband". Most translations translate it as "husband" in Matt 1:16 because they assume the "Joseph" in that verse is speaking of Mary's betrothed husband. But it does not have to be. In the Aramaic, different words are used in v16 and v19, indicating the two Josephs are not the same man. Plus, there's the generation count.

Also, Matthew is written with the perspective of Jesus as King, so it makes sense to list his royal bloodline genealogy through Mary. Luke is written with the perspective of Jesus as a man, hence the generation is given through Joseph, his step-father.

To me, it is far more reasonable to understand that Matthew's genealogy is through Mary, and Luke's is through Joseph.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

shrume said:

I'm not quite seeing the connection of Matt 1:16 and Matt 1:19 both clearly state Joseph the husband of Mary, so I can't see changing one of those to say Joseph the father of Mary, they both state the same thing Joseph was Mary's husband.

Reason why Mary is not included directly as a descendant of Heli is because a woman in those times couldn't own land or anything so the heir to Heli would be one of Heli's sons, that being said that's why it's written like it is, Jesus grandfather was Heli.

In what I've wrote and you can see where the fourteen gens line up, Jesus was the fourteen generation this is symbolic one of a King the king bloodline. After the exile to Babylon (1) Jeconiah to (13) Joseph to Jesus (14),

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world so Jeconiah doesn't nullify Jeremiah's OT statement.

shrume · Jul 31, 2017

BeyondET said:

Again, in the Aramaic, two different words are used. I think that if both Josephs (v16 and 19) were Mary's husband, the same word would have been used.

Yes, I have heard that explanation before. I don't agree. I think it's a stretch to read this for what it says:

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

and twist it to say it's talking about Mary.

Jeconiah was the 14th person in the second group of 14, not the first in the third group. The first person in the third group is Shealtiel.

??

Not sure what that has to do with the genealogies.

BeyondET · Jul 31, 2017

shrume said:

It's quite ok my friend, not everything in bible people agree on some see it one way others see it another.

Why i mentioned Jeremiah he said something about Jeconiah in OT, but IMO it's doesn't apply if ones kingdom isn't not of this world.

valiant · Jul 31, 2017

The most likely explanation of the two genealogies is that Matthew's is the line of descent to the throne, thus when there was no direct heir it moved to a 'cousin', and that Luke's is Joseph's personal genealogy.

shrume · Jul 31, 2017

valiant said:

I generally agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by "thus when there was no direct heir it moved to a 'cousin'". Jesus Christ is a direct heir of the throne through Mary.

You do realize that we're in an extremely small minority?

The vast majority of Christians believe Matthew's genealogy is through Joseph (Mary's husband), and Luke's is through Mary.

BeyondET · Aug 1, 2017

In my view the Luke genelogy is pretty much cut and dry, this is the Adam lineage, the only mystery in this account is Heli and who he was, and I don't think logically this person could be any other person but Mary's father who passed the gen to his daughter Mary who gave birth to Jesus. Who took the worlds sin on His shoulders literally.

The Matthew genelogy is the king lineage King David was a first generation King and his son Solomon was the second King after David, the only similarity in this account to Luke's account is the 14 generations of Abraham to Kind David, this is where the genelogy splits too the two sons of David, Nathan to Mary and Solomon to Joseph, it doesn't appear to be any hidden lineage or paths or anything like that.

Genealogy of Jesus Luke 3

Lk3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.
He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, and the son of Heli,
Lk3:24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
Lk3:25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,
Lk3:26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
Lk3:27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,
Lk3:28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
Lk3:29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,
Lk3:30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
Lk3:31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David,
Lk3:32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,
Lk3:33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,
Lk3:34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
Lk3:35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,
Lk3:36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
Lk3:37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan,
Lk3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

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