Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Yes you are right.

I think confusion arises as a result of the bible we read.

Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
Chapter 8
Free from Indwelling Sin
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 (ESV)
Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (As per most modern bibles)

Interesting that the NKV has the following footnote
(NKJV) 8:1 x NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.


Look at the difference and to me it's a biggie in the life of a believer. We have the bible but dependent on your mindset as a person, probably based on life's experiences and based on doctrinal teaching then to me one can emprison you and one can set you free.

Read ad the NKJV version then one can walk in a way that says "If my flesh overcomes my spirit then I am condemned"
This can then result in a yo-yo reaction of "Am I really saved, and condemned one minute and saved the next, one minute I'm in and the next I am out" to me if that's the case then we are so unstable then that becomes our focus. That then detracts
from who we are in Jesus and basically makes a relationship one sided.

Its all about what I have to do rather than walking with God through and with the Holy Spirit. A two way relationship.
If it's not two way then it's not a relationship.

So to me verses 1-4 are saying, we are no longer condemned under the law but now given the Holy Spirit we are empowered to walk like Jesus to live for him. The law could just pronounced sin as such but couldn't do anything about it.
Jesus took our sins upon him, he who knew no sin became sin for us, in order that we can be set fee from sin.

The righteous requirements of the law was fulfilled in Jesus so that we as believers have this righteousness not by following the law but by being in Christ and as a result walking according to the spirit.

The righteousness of the law to me is summed in love.
Summed up in the two new commandments Jesus gave.

We want to love God with all our heart and soul, love our neighbors and I take it further. Love our enemies.

A genuine believer will want to be like this and do this.
and let's be honest we will fall foul, we will follow the flesh. Some more than others.
A genuine believer may really struggle with stuff that seems to then impossible to overcome.
BUT if they have the Holy Spirit in them they will be like Jacob, I ain't letting go of you. Whatever it takes for you to bless me and cause me to be like you, whatever is stopping me please help me.

To me that is a person walking in the spirit.

If a person has no regard to walk in the Spirit, even after being taught what it means to be a follower of Jesus then we leave it up to God.

However if a beloved child of God struggles and suffers we as beloved brothers/sisters are commanded to love them.

Hi Bill,

I have empathy with the translators. Paul is saying walking in the Spirit means we have no
condemnation . The next few verses in Romans 8:2-4 say this.
So many want a promise without reading the explanation which is why the kjv put it in.
Paul says the same elsewhere, but you need eyes to see it.

Either one listens to Jesus or one ends up a false teacher. And every false teacher claims
they are right very sincerely, even when it is clear they are not.

Part of me finds this reality discouraging, but then who am I to say who is there to prove the
children of God, and who is real?

 

[royalscot]

with out context, it dose not matter, what you have. yet in an educated world.

it make no difference. a liar will always remain a liar.

ask the dip stick whos car he used. was he going, to his work.

 

[royalscot]

 

[dcontroversal]

persnoally i think where all Gods angels waiting to go to the light or the darkness.... this is our last chance saloon...

The bible states he made us a little LOWER than the angels for the suffering of death!

 

[dcontroversal]

So it is all up to you?
Jesus did His part, which was not complete, therefore, you must finish what Jesus started by staying " connected to His vine".

They all push works in some form or fashion while denying the finished work of Christ on our behalf which includes a denial of the words grace, faith, saved, justified, sanctified, sealed, imputed, uttermost, his power, etc.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Wrong thread....many folks who know that salvation is NOT BY WORKS but Faith...aren't Calvinist,

But yeah...let's stir the pot...

Welcome to CC, hope you find Christ centered friends...I wouldn't suggest BDF for the faint of heart...prayers and miscellaneous are normally friendlier.

Amen....was going to reply to it, but decided that if I did it would be equated to raking him over the coals....which I what I would have done!!

 

[dcontroversal]

"When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Matthew9:36

Excuse me Grace777, for jumping in to your conversation but I like how you present these insights into scripture. It has been my long time goal to conform to the likeness of God's Son, a worthy pursuit. Also I have come to see this Christian experience on earth as preparation for Heaven and what God would have us to do. I think your above statements are true and biblically correct.

Amen, I have said more than once that biblical Christianity is placing yourself last and everyone else's needs ahead of your own....I have found the more selfless my prayers the more times I actually get what I need without asking for it...

 

[dcontroversal]

Why can young Christians never learn about Scripture online without wading into a bloodsport over doctrine? Why is our community Bible study so often "not for the faint of heart" if Bible study is our strongest bond?

At the end of the day the word of God is shaper than any two edged sword, it divides, cuts asunder and cuts deep....contrary to the view of many we are in a war between light and darkness, true and false, right and wrong, good and evil...at fate-->the souls of men and their eternal destiny.....this conflict goes all the way back to the beginning...yea before the beginning and through the ages we can see the conflict playing out...Cain and Abel, David and Goliath, Moses and the Pharoah etc........and even in human combat "Fresh recruits and Greenhorns" get thrown into the fray....the implication is obvious!

 

[dcontroversal]

HOW do we change? I thought Jesus did that already, so we don't have to.

Romans 12:1-2 Transformed by the renewing of the mind dia a study and application of the word which no one disagrees with!

 

[dcontroversal]

Bible study happens in other forums and even in live chat and via pm.

It doesn't happen often in the BDF because we have many "teachers" of opposing doctrine that would rather debate than mentor.

Plus online there is no appointed leader for the forum threads.

At one time there was a weekly bible study online lead by one of the moderators but haven't seen that in a while.

You know.....from day one men have been hammering out the word on the anvil of controversy....this is nothing new and will continue until Jesus sits on his throne ruling with a rod of iron.....!

 

[Meggido]

Grace 777.

I find it interesting that there are two places to be a babe in Christ or mature in Christ.

I have not read yet in scripture where there are other stages in between, but I have not studied this out, so I am just thinking and reflecting...but I trust your view, but it seems to imply there are two places we can be in terms of our spiritual selves.

New to understanding who were are in Christ (babe) and then mature when we are fully persuaded of who we are in Christ (mature)?

1 John 2.12-15


[SUP]12 [/SUP]I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. [SUP]13[/SUP]I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

 

[Meggido]

I do not really think that is what Grace7 meant.


I think the vine receives from the branch, abiding is a passive place to be, it can only wait and be fed, if we are abiding we are receiving from Jesus, I think it is the exact opposite then He is our spiritual influence and we are protected form other spiritual influences.

Have you ever really studied John 15? No where in John 15 does it say that abiding is doing nothing and just receiving...

 

[Ariel82]

Meggido..she has us on ignore..perhaps it's better to speak with someone else?

 

[Meggido]

Meggido..she has us on ignore..perhaps it's better to speak with someone else?

thought she took me off...if not...fine...

 

[Ariel82]

Could be wrong. Apologies.

 

[dcontroversal]

How gentle is our Lord...If we ALL walked in HIS fruit...xox...

The same Lord made a whip and drove the money changers from His Father's House lest we forget....

 

[dcontroversal]

Just when you think you have doctrine all figured out, along comes a sentence you never noticed before and it's back to the drawing board! I think God designed it that way to make us develop intellectual and emotional rigor.

That and the word and oour learning curve is based upon maturity....meat belongs to them who are of a full age....and milk to the infants and children...we grow and mature in the word which allows for a deeper understanding....

 

[UnderGrace]

The only thing I said repeatedly in different word is that Jesus (empowering grace to use your terminology) is the source of our good works

Also that we will be conformed to His image the more we are persuaded /believe we are new creation in Him.

This is the divine influence of grace in our lives that empowers (again using your terminology) to do the good works that He would have us do.

I believe in the pure simple gospel we are saved by grace through faith and salvation is a gift never to be taken back or forsaken.

I do not ascribe to any type of Lordship salvation teaching, it is detrimental to the Christian walk because it brings works as part of salvation into the simple gospel even though this is denied repeatedly.

That is my only message on this discussion thread, and perhaps I have said it in different ways, it is always to stress that Jesus is the source and the works we do stem from Him not from self-effort.

If you view this is heretical, I am fine with that, I have been a born again believer for over thirty years and the ones I spent under Lordship salvation teaching were the worst years of my Christian life, I prefer to live in the victory and liberty of Jesus and the knowledge of His finished work of the cross and if someone wants to know my experiences I am good with that.

I may have mixed this up an a prior post because have work I should be doing and am avoiding, but this is all I was trying to say

Without the vine the branch can do nothing. To the vine it owes its right of place in the vineyard, its life and its fruitfulness.
Jesus stated it himself in the parable we receive from him to be fruitful

Hope this is puts it to rest.

QUOTE=Meggido;3234740]Have you ever really studied John 15? No where in John 15 does it say that abiding is doing nothing and just receiving...[/QUOTE]

 

[willybob]

Oh I'm glad you're back! I was in a tizzy.
The OT sacrifice that spoke of Him to come, the animal died in their place, to cover their sin. Without the blood there was no forgiveness of their sin. This is someone (or something, an animal) dying instead of me having to die. There has always been this need to have that covering of blood for sins and it has always been extracted from an innocent, even in the garden an animal died to cover them. (Animals were subjected to this futility, they didn't choose it).

Who doesn't know this has given us a way to reconciliation? Every time I murder someone in anger but I can still go to Him, it's because the Blood covers my sin, isn't it?

Greetings stunnedbygrace

The OT lambs as you say were a shadow of the Messiah to come...Those lambs were innocent having no sin, and so was Jesus innocent having no sin...The life is in the blood and this is what God required for atonement..What is atonement? Atonement, a beautiful word created by William Tyndale in the English, he created many English words by combing the Hebrew, an the Greek with middle English, forming modern English. The man was a genius in languages, he probably accomplished more than the 47 KJB scholars combined who came about 70 years after him.."Passover" is another beautiful word developed by Tyndale in the English........

Anyway, the blood did not pay for sins, it provided an atoning work that God required so HE could dispense HIS mercy and forgive sins...Animals could only cover sin, they could not take away sin, Heb.10-4,11, however the Lamb of God, the Messiah came to take away sins, as prophesied He would in the mist of Daniels 70th week when HE was cut off for our transgressions at the cross, and take away sins, Daniel 9:24-27...John the baptizer said, behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY sins, John 1-29....Jesus blood has the power to remove sin from our life, (HE shall save his people from their sin, Matt. 1-21...For this is My COVENANT with them, when I shall TAKE AWAY their sins, Romans 11-27......And ye know that he was manifested totake away our sins; and in him there is no sin, John 1-35... If His blood could only cover sin it would have no more power than the OT lamb sacrifices....

The blood of Christ does not cover sin, it remits sin if one has truly repented and is not out to get one over on God, by returning to their vomit...God sees the heart in repentance and looks for purity. He looks to see if their is any guile left therein; that is what is meant when the text says God searches the hearts of men..He searches the heart for guile and to see if the heart is sincere......

Would be most pleased to answer any more questions concerning the atonement that you might have...Its probably the most misunderstood doctrine in the NT......................be blessed always in you searching

 

[willybob]

In addition to this I would like to make clear again a most important truth. God's mercy is victorious over His wrath,(mercy triumphs condemnation, in that HE desires that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance and live); therefor the atoning blood of Christ, the testator of the new covenant/testament, justified God's mercy rather than satisfy His wrath..The satisfaction atonement doctrine was not heard of until some 1200 years after Jesus died and rose again........be blessed