The Lie of the Prosperity Gospel

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Persuaded

Guest
Trust me, if it's any comfort I know a lot of people that left the wof movement and some of them were in it even longer than you plus some of them are very good friends of mine. The point is, you came to your senses and I hope and pray denadii will come to his senses one day. Keep up the good work. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You misunderstood my post.
I was referring to the Joyce Meyers wealth.
I have served as pastor of a small rural church for 21 years for zero pay.
Would not trade that time for all of her wealth.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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You misunderstood my post.
I was referring to the Joyce Meyers wealth.
I have served as pastor of a small rural church for 21 years for zero pay.
Would not trade that time for all of her wealth.
Sorry, your right I guess I did misunderstand your post. Your also right about not trading, it's not worth it comapared to eternity. And keep up the good work anyway. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 21, 2012
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And just think....The so called ministry you are associated with probably has not led anywhere that number of people to the Lord in all its history....Those people are saved because Copeland is willing to share the Word. Why has your ministry not done the same numbers? I would rather be associated with a ministry that gets people into the Kingdom than one that does not. wouldn't you? Apparently not.

I mentioned that 3000 people accepted Jesus there. That does not count the numbers that were healed! What does your ministry do? Criticize! And nobody gets healed or saved. But that's a Christian ministry......Isn't it?
If you agree that the 'holy laughter" movement is not of the Lord, then do take noet of this video and see who that is at 1:40 in the video; that's Kenneth Copeland.

[video=youtube;33mZ9UrGDMY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33mZ9UrGDMY[/video]

That is why you cannot get behind any one in representing them when you are only called to represent Christ Jesus.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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So a believer can be in bondage yet that is because they are not pleasing God by their lack of faith? Is that because faith without works is dead....


You are not listening to what I am saying if you are applying James's words of faith without works is dead to be applied towards salvation... which proves you are not listening to what James is saying either.

Faith comes by hearing right? But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22
Applying how a person is saved and when he is saved towards "being doers of the word and not hearers only" for salvation would mean you are not saved yet, right, because you still have to be doers of the word. So think again.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel & thus believing in the gospel is towards salvation;

James is only talking about being examples unto others and not just saying the things that they say to others.

In the second chapter.... he reproves a church for verbalizing faith in God to provide and yet do not lead by example to the departing poor after church service by meeting their immediate needs from the bounty collected. The church was issuing faith in God to provide for the poor by saying " be warmed and be filled" to get out of helping the poor.

But if you are programmed as taught by many believers to read the Book of James to be applicable to the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, I cannot help you.

But in reference to my post, if circumcision is the smallest letter of the law and if any saved believer do that, then they are entitled to do the whole law and so where does making a vow, promise, or a commitment to God is? The biggest letter of the law and by putting oneself under that, then they are required to do the whole law and by that law is the knowledge of sin. So of any believer seeks to be justified to Christ by keeping a commitment, then by that commitment will expose the knowledge of sin in where that believer failed to keep it.

You either rest in Him to live by faith in Him as your Good Shepherd to help you to follow Him thereby testifying of all your hopes in Him for everything and not just for having obtained your salvation by belief in Him alone OR... you have departed from faith and have resorted to your own power in keeping that commitment to Christ the best you can as the means to follow Him.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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Sorry, your right I guess I did misunderstand your post. Your also right about not trading, it's not worth it comapared to eternity. And keep up the good work anyway. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I sincerely hope that he is hoping in Him to continue His good work in His ministry in that small rural church.

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?[SUP] 6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Corinthians 3:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 4:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

John 6:[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?[SUP] 29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:[SUP]28 [/SUP]Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.[SUP]29 [/SUP]He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.[SUP]30 [/SUP]He must increase, but I must decrease.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Denalii has me on ignore. Perhaps this could be "reply with quote" for him to see? Don't be sneaky Angela. Sneaky only makes people think you like to cheat. The fact is....I took everybody off of 'ignore' because I don't like 'ignore'. I even took you off.....
Thanks, I think! Not sneaky! Just wise in Forum ways. I apologize if offended you BUT!

As usual, you never answered the exegesis in my post. That is my point! Because, 3 John 2 is part of a greeting or salutation in a letter, not instructions on how to "prosper."

I would just like to see you learn to start reading the Bible for yourself, and not post a page of Scriptures out of context, that you got from a Word Faith web page. In other words, read 1, 2 and 3 John and then tell me it is about a formula to become rich. Or any of the other verses you posted pages ago!

No offense, I hope! I appreciate you turned over a new leaf, I read! We can all do that, from time to time, or more often! Certainly I need to, on more than one occasion. God bless! (Not a wish for health and wealth, though!)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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This last week the Southwestern Believers Convention of Kenneth Copeland ministries closed. Over the week almost three thousand gave their hearts to Jesus. How many people were saved through your crackers and cheese teaching this week?
I do hope you understand that Kenneth Copeland and his ministry did not save anyone! It is God that saves us. I would also say the majority of those people, have had repeated contact with the gospel, maybe even in some small church, or at the kitchen table of a loving friend who shared their testimony and preached the Bible.

Further, I would love to know how many of those 3000 people who got "saved" did so because they were keenly aware of their own sin, and wanted to know Christ and his saving power, or because they wanted health and wealth?

Further, I wonder how many of those salvations were on "good soil?" Not to disparage these evangelistic efforts, just my own experience with follow up with the Billy Graham Crusade in 1984 in Vancouver, when literally not one person of thousands who went up, prayed a prayer, and signed a commitment card wanted to follow up! They even gave their names, address and phone number, but it was all emotionalism, in the final analysis.

Better one sincere convert, convicted by the Holy Spirit, than thousands needing a sugar daddy in the sky, and falling away when they don't get what they demanded!
 
May 13, 2017
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Thanks, I think! Not sneaky! Just wise in Forum ways. I apologize if offended you BUT!

As usual, you never answered the exegesis in my post. That is my point! Because, 3 John 2 is part of a greeting or salutation in a letter, not instructions on how to "prosper."

I would just like to see you learn to start reading the Bible for yourself, and not post a page of Scriptures out of context, that you got from a Word Faith web page. In other words, read 1, 2 and 3 John and then tell me it is about a formula to become rich. Or any of the other verses you posted pages ago!

No offense, I hope! I appreciate you turned over a new leaf, I read! We can all do that, from time to time, or more often! Certainly I need to, on more than one occasion. God bless! (Not a wish for health and wealth, though!)
That's because I choose not to answer you. The hatred you people harbor for people who differ from you in doctrine or belief is gag worthy. So I don't answer. Too busy not puking.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
That's because I choose not to answer you. The hatred you people harbor for people who differ from you in doctrine or belief is gag worthy. So I don't answer. Too busy not puking.
Would you respond to post #96 & 97.
Thanks.
 
May 13, 2017
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Another point---
There are tens of thousands of Christians who are in dire need of help with food and medical bills.
If this man you admire and others like him were as great a Christian as you believe, they would share that wealth.
They would be poor or middle class Christians like the rest of us.
These ministries pour millions into just that every single year. Each "WoF" minister that I know gives personally hundreds of thousands as well to the poor. This I know. Ok. Its answered. I do know what I am talking about. Unlike some.
 
May 13, 2017
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My concern is simple---
Are these 3000 really saved or have they been mislead by this man's false Gospel?
I do not believe I am wrong to question these TV preachers who become multi-millionaires by preaching a false Gospel.
And Brother, you have no idea how many souls are won through the ministry of those on this forum.
This is a typical question asked by denominations who judge other Christians rather than follow the Word.

Its much easier to criticize than it is to DO isn't it?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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That's because I choose not to answer you. The hatred you people harbor for people who differ from you in doctrine or belief is gag worthy. So I don't answer. Too busy not puking.
A contraire! To hate a heresy is not the same as hating the heretic! In fact, my goal is to teach, to show the truth. If I am wrong in my exegetics, I am always open to instruction, from the Word, in context. But I cannot abide with the same 1/4 verse in the OT being thrown out as proof for a heinous doctrine. Or 50 out of context verses, which twist what God is saying.

So, prove me, wrong. Go back to the post you quoted in 3 John 2 I exegeted and tell me why I am wrong?

Over and over I carefully take the time to look at each of these verses you throw out, to see if they support the Word Faith doctrine. I could do every single verse you post, but why would I bother, then you come back with insults like this? And still, you have not addressed my objections to using 3 John 2 to support this heresy. If you can, I wish you would!

To think I thought you had turned over a new leaf, and yet here you are back to endless insults. Did you learn that from Kenneth Copeland? And I will say, he holds a not nice place in my heart after he took my friend's money, ordained her, and then when she died because she would not get treatment, have named a healing which never came. Just so you know that even Kenneth Copeland's ministers don't get healed.
 
May 13, 2017
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A contraire! To hate a heresy is not the same as hating the heretic! In fact, my goal is to teach, to show the truth. If I am wrong in my exegetics, I am always open to instruction, from the Word, in context. But I cannot abide with the same 1/4 verse in the OT being thrown out as proof for a heinous doctrine. Or 50 out of context verses, which twist what God is saying.

So, prove me, wrong. Go back to the post you quoted in 3 John 2 I exegeted and tell me why I am wrong?

Over and over I carefully take the time to look at each of these verses you throw out, to see if they support the Word Faith doctrine. I could do every single verse you post, but why would I bother, then you come back with insults like this? And still, you have not addressed my objections to using 3 John 2 to support this heresy. If you can, I wish you would!

To think I thought you had turned over a new leaf, and yet here you are back to endless insults. Did you learn that from Kenneth Copeland? And I will say, he holds a not nice place in my heart after he took my friend's money, ordained her, and then when she died because she would not get treatment, have named a healing which never came. Just so you know that even Kenneth Copeland's ministers don't get healed.
I don't insult you at all Angela. I simply have no use for your religious lies about other Christians, and if that's all you have, as it appears, then you and I have nothing to talk about.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I don't insult you at all Angela. I simply have no use for your religious lies about other Christians, and if that's all you have, as it appears, then you and I have nothing to talk about.

Dr. Nydia Tupas Singh. Although the doctor's "degree" was from an on-line diploma mill, her Master's was from University of Victoria, her undergrad from the Philippines. Died 2004, after refusing cancer meds after a mastectomy, for breast cancer. Died 10 months after naming and claiming it, and Kenneth Copeland's Ministry praying for her. And her church! And naming and claiming it every day. A close friend and a mentor. I met her in Prince Rupert, BC in 1982! Kept in contact when I moved to Vancouver, and she moved to Vancouver Island.

I never even rebuked her when she walked into my kitchen with a group of young people, casting out my RA demons, and claiming healing, at one of the most difficult times in my life. I do hope when we meet again, she and I will be friends. Telling me I lacked faith to be healed! Well, she wasn't as wise as I first thought, sadly for her!

So, would you like to call me a liar again? Because I don't lie, and never about the death of a friend because of this evil Word Faith heresy. I only give her real name, because it would be difficult to trace her, after all these years. As for the other Word Faith friend, who almost died naming and claiming healing for an enlarged prostate, I will not give you his name. Because a friend took him to the hospital, where he had immediate emergency surgery, and lived to tell the tale.

Also not a lie! And that rotten lie from the devil, called Word Faith, well, you might as well put me back on ignore, because I will not stop testifying against this horrible lie from the pit of hell!

Word Faith is the lie! I pray God shows you what a disastrous and unbiblical doctrine it is!
 
May 13, 2017
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Dr. Nydia Tupas Singh. Although the doctor's "degree" was from an on-line diploma mill, her Master's was from University of Victoria, her undergrad from the Philippines. Died 2004, after refusing cancer meds after a mastectomy, for breast cancer. Died 10 months after naming and claiming it, and Kenneth Copeland's Ministry praying for her. And her church! And naming and claiming it every day. A close friend and a mentor. I met her in Prince Rupert, BC in 1982! Kept in contact when I moved to Vancouver, and she moved to Vancouver Island.

I never even rebuked her when she walked into my kitchen with a group of young people, casting out my RA demons, and claiming healing, at one of the most difficult times in my life. I do hope when we meet again, she and I will be friends. Telling me I lacked faith to be healed! Well, she wasn't as wise as I first thought, sadly for her!

So, would you like to call me a liar again? Because I don't lie, and never about the death of a friend because of this evil Word Faith heresy. I only give her real name, because it would be difficult to trace her, after all these years. As for the other Word Faith friend, who almost died naming and claiming healing for an enlarged prostate, I will not give you his name. Because a friend took him to the hospital, where he had immediate emergency surgery, and lived to tell the tale.

Also not a lie! And that rotten lie from the devil, called Word Faith, well, you might as well put me back on ignore, because I will not stop testifying against this horrible lie from the pit of hell!

Word Faith is the lie! I pray God shows you what a disastrous and unbiblical doctrine it is!
Angela...The Word say that the just shall live by Faith...Deal with it. If we don't get healed, if we don't prosper in All the ways God has for us....it's because We don't believe God. He's right and we're wrong.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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You just tossed out another "phrase" totally out of context.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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Because you need to understand the original source, and the verses/context that Paul uses it in.
 
May 13, 2017
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Because you need to understand the original source, and the verses/context that Paul uses it in.
Thank you Rabbi. I understand what context is....Where was I out of context? I was not.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Context! It is just so missing in Word Faith posts.

I saw 3 John 2 posted twice in the last two pages as a proof text that we "must prosper."

So, context is what do the surrounding verses say, the book, the geography/history etc as applicable?


"1 The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth.2 Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. 3 For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth.4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth." 1 John 1-3

Now, verse 2 is part of a paragraph in which verse 1, 3 & 4 appear. And they are part of the salutation. In Greek culture, there was a certain format to write a formal letter, or epistle, and this was part of it. (Although sometimes not all of it was adhered to, in this case, it was!) And please be aware, this is at the beginning of 3 John, it cannot be anything else but a salutation!!

A Greek salutation contains the following:

1. The person to whom it is sent. In this case, Gaius, a personal letter. Whom John also loves in a Christian sense!
2. Greetings and wishes for health and the hope things are going well.
3. Usually something complimentary. Only the book of Galatians leaves this out, because Paul has nothing good to say to the Judiazers who are wrecking the church there. In this case, verses 3-4 describes the good word John got back about Gaius, and how it gave John great joy to hear this word!

So, verse 1 is addressed to Gaius, and so are verses 3 and 4. Verse 2 must therefore also be addressed to Gaius, not to Word of Faith adherents in our day and age. But, it would make a nice greeting for anyone to receive. Nothing wrong with that. But not a promise of health and wealth, for sure!

So, having established this salutation follows the traditional Greek letter format, what can we say about verse 2?

Certainly, John is not commanding that our souls MUST prosper and we MUST command good health. Certainly not money, In fact, the word "prosper" doesn't really even refer to money.

"Ἀγαπητέ, περὶ πάντων εὔχομαί σε εὐοδοῦσθαι καὶ ὑγιαίνειν, καθὼς εὐοδοῦταί σου ἡ ψυχή." 3 John 2.

εὐοδοῦσθαι (eudousthai) - Present Passive Infinitive from εὐοδόω (euodoo) - meaning- in the passive - to be lead along a good road, to get along well, to prosper or succeed. In other word, it is a hopeful wish, that all will be good for this person.

If you want to get very literal, the word σε or se, is the second person singular and therefore addressed to one person only - Gaius. It does not say, "I wish YOU ALL will be prosperous" or worse "You ALL can command your life to be prosperous, with health, and wealth forever." In fact, this was a common but personal greeting to the person Gaius. It was not addressed to the church in the 20th and 21st centuries, nor even a specific church in the NT. It was addressed to a single individual, that John was commending about what he had heard about him.

εὔχομαί or euchomai, further, a present, active indicative, lands more on the side of "wish" rather than prayer. The renowned lexicon, Bauer, (BDAG) puts 3 John 2 in the "wish" column. Not a prayer to God at all. Just a hopeful wish, John had for this servant of God, named Gaius. So a wish for a good life - body and soul.

The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament by Cleon Rogers Jr. and Cleon Rogers III say on page 602:
"This was a common greeting and desire expressed in letters for the recipient to be in good health. (with 6 references) and then RAC for further information about the general concept of health and well being in the ancient world."

I would most appreciate it, if this verse was no longer used as a proof text for the Word Faith heresy. Of course, Denalii has me on ignore. Perhaps this could be "reply with quote" for him to see?

PS. I can take apart each one of the verses that Denalii and others are using as proof texts in this manner. It is easy for me, being able to read Greek. But of course, anyone who reads the Bible in context, in any translation can also figure this out, easily enough. In this case, the Greek is OBVIOUSLY NOT saying that this can ever be a proof text for Word Faith. So, kindly stop pulling it out of context! It simply is not a talisman to recite, and then you will get everything you want, that being the foundation of the entire Word Faith heresy!

One more time, post for Denalii to biblically refute. Please try not to call me a liar. I just want the Word, in context. I am willing to listen, if what I have written is not right. But it must be exegesis, not insults and outrage because this tears a verse out of the Word Faith lexicon, because it is not what these Word Faith teachers are saying it is.