Not By Works

[Desertsrose]

That verse goes very deep! The Pharisees were beyond reproach as to Gods' commands (looking at things humanly).

They obeyed meticulously in tithing, the Sabbath, etc.

And yet Jesus said their righteousness must EXCEED that of the Pharisees!

Hi Stunned,

Actually the Pharisees were not above reproach. They only obeyed what they chose to obey to give the impression that they were obeying the law. They did easy things that could be faked to have an outward appearance of loving God and obeying Him.

Matthew 23:23-24

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

~ The law required tithing
which they did
~ The law required mercy, justice, faithfulness
which they did not do

Tithing is easy for anyone to do - outward appearance

Mercy, justice, faithfulness takes faith, the new birth (the faith of Abraham)

The epitome of hypocrisy is to tell others how to live, but not live it yourself.

This is one thing that they did correctly because Jesus told others to listen to them, so what they taught was good, but Jesus said don't do what they do. They didn't live what they preached.

The devoured widows houses
Made long prayers
They were great house cleaners
But full of robbery and self indulgence
They looked pretty on the outside
But their dead bones were hypocrisy and lawlessness

The pharisees wanted the praise of men, but didn't want the praise of God.

So what Jesus is saying is that we need more than an outward appearance, we need the inward living it out that can only come by the new birth (the faith of Abraham).

For us today, the faith of Abraham is the fulfillment of the mystery, Christ in you the hope of glory.

So what we teach, we need to be living the truth and not be like the Pharisee who says all the right and correct doctrines, teachings, but didn't live out the truth. The righteous requirements of the law were elusive to them because they lacked faith.

The question we need to ask ourselves is that now that we're in Christ are we walking out the truth for others to see?

Many here use the Pharisees as an example of those who promote works (obedience) after salvation.

It really judges both sides of the issue.

Those who promote obedience (works) after salvation ...... what's going on in their heart. Do they love and produce the fruits of righteousness? ..... those Jesus spoke of which is a life in Him where everything is birthed from love.

Those who promote grace, are they full of grace so that the grace is seen in how they walk out their life showing fruits of righteousness.....which again is living love towards others as fruit; it's lived out from the new man in Christ instead of the old man.

Those on both sides need to love in word and action. Is that going on in here? Loving one another is God's grace at work in the believer.

When we speak and disagree - are we motivated because we love the other person, or are we wanting to be right? are we angry? are we getting back because the other attacked us and hurt our feelings, our pride? do we think we know more? is knowledge puffing us up?

The Pharisees are a lesson for all of us here. Not one side over the other. They are an example for us all.

And for all of the posts, I think we all agree that Jesus is the way the truth the life. No man comes to the father except through the Son.

We all believe that we're saved by grace through faith. We all believe that works will follow those who believe, that we'll live a life of ongoing obedience to the Lord.

Most of us agree that we confess our sin and ask for God's forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We all believe that we're on a journey. Some of us are at different levels of maturity. So why are we beating up our own?

Those of us here, let's take the Lord's words seriously and ask ourself if we are living in hypocrisy or are we living the true grace of love towards others.

Disagreements are good and healthy. But the battling it out with put downs, belittling, name-calling, accusations, judgements and the like does not come from the Spirit of Christ.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”1 John 4:7; John 13:34-35

 

[stonesoffire]

Lol, you're cute!!!

well, thank you. I do get called that and feisty too by my husband. Never the word pretty though.

 

[AllenW]

well, thank you. I do get called that and feisty too by my husband. Never the word pretty though.

I'm sorry.
You're real pretty too.

 

[gb9]

Can you link that post, when you have a chance. I must have missed it trying to keep is not easy.

I do so agree.

page 1468 ( wow that's strange to say ) #29356,.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm sorry.
You're real pretty too.

Lol...I wasn't fishing. Are we settled now in our faith?

 

[JIMBO43]

A branch cannot disconnect itself

it can if it snaps of or gets blown of or rots with a fungus infection

 

[stonesoffire]

it can if it snaps of or gets blown of or rots with a fungus infection

in a tree on earth. But the tree of life?

 

[JIMBO43]

Nope. I was just making the point that I hear this exact same argument from Roman Catholics and other works salvationists. Your straw man argument is not work of Christ and neither is teaching salvation by works.

well i suppose you will always deny works then coz you have it all worked out.. does that mean you should not continue to work out your salvation... ?

i suppose this is a nother strawman to
[h=1]Philippians 2:12Amplified Bible (AMP)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, my dear ones, just as you have always obeyed [my instructions with enthusiasm], not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation [that is, cultivate it, bring it to full effect, actively pursue spiritual maturity] with awe-inspired fear and trembling [using serious caution and critical self-evaluation to avoid anything that might offend God or discredit the name of Christ].

 

[JIMBO43]

in a tree on earth. But the tree of life?

there was only one tree of life and that is shielded by flaming swords

 

[JIMBO43]

Jimbo, I've said several times that I'm not Catholic and I've asked MMD to stop speaking to me about the Catholic Church, but, alas, he refuses to.

It does make me wonder why.

Some on this thread keep speaking about the love of Jesus and how we should do good works only because we love Jesus,

BUT THEN THEY SHOW NO LOVE.
So does this mean they DON'T love Jesus?

It's mysterious indeed !

i see no harm in being a catholic.. its only the catholic bashers who see wrong.. they dont judge the modern day catholic they judge the old church..

 

[stonesoffire]

there was only one tree of life and that is shielded by flaming swords

after the Cross?

 

[Limey410v2]

The reason there is so much resistance to what Fran is saying is because the church is incapable of understanding works as the obligatory footprints of faith. They think faith and works are two completely distinct and separate thingsin life and so they think it entirely possible to live a full, long life with all arms and legs, and mouth working and you can get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, empty OSAS confession of faith in Christ and not have a life characterized by righteous work and Christ will usher you into the kingdom. That's not even remotely true. Many will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment to find out that James was not lying when he said dead faith (faith without works attached) can not save.

The only place that works and faith are distinct and separate is in justification. You are not justified by works. That is impossible. You would have to have been a perfect person, according to all of the law, to be justified by what you do. This truth the church knows quite well. The problem is, they think justification by faith apart from works means they do not have any obligation to purposely and consciously walk in good works because as they love to say, "salvation is soooo not of works", which it true, but they don't realize if they truly had justification apart from their works their life must prove the presence of that justification. They boast and brag about how powerful God is in salvation in saving works-less people but don't seem to realize that that belief also shows God to be so pathetically unable and powerless to cause their faith to manifest itself in a life of righteous living.

My confession, repentance, faith and resurrection in Christ is not based in OSAS.

It is on the foundation that I was called to believe in Christ and His accomplishment for me. Believe in what He did and accept the free Gift of the Holy Spirit of God into my life.

OSAS for me came waaaay later.

My faith is NOT built on OSAS just because I believe it is true for my life.

You have it backwards, my full faith and belief in the love and mercy of my Lord, leads me to trust that there is not one that can overcome the power of God in my life.

My salvation is secure in spite of what any man will say.

 

[Limey410v2]

i see no harm in being a catholic.. its only the catholic bashers who see wrong.. they dont judge the modern day catholic they judge the old church..

My Nana was RC, and she sure loved Jesus. (I loved that woman)

 

[stonesoffire]

Jimbo, just for you. You can take it or leave it. It's up to you.


Declaring His Work!

We have returned to the Garden of Eden
Brought into His presence, made whole by the Lamb.
Satans lies crushed underfoot as we enter..
Truth is our breastplate, and light floods our stand.

Victory of blood, Royal blood out from Heaven
No stain of sin, given once for all men
Born into Him..Son of God, son of mankind
Covering; purging....flowing within.

Now we an army, attired in white linen
Helmets salvation encloses our head
Righteousness pinning lusts serpentine yearnings
Peace reigns our hearts touching others for Him.

He leads His army, His Voice individual
Yet, corporate as all move in Spirit as One
His-story shouting in signs and in wonders
Gathering all for His home filled with love.

 

[FranC]

Wrong....Study James properly these snippets destroy Truth

James is writing to the Jews, who are learning how to come out from under the Law and what role works have to play in their final judgment.

The question of faith has already been settled, we are saved by faith, James knew this he was a born again believer.

James is teaching on the profitable life of the Christian and being judged by the law of liberty when we stand before God
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
James 2:12

Those under the law of liberty are already justified by faith in Christ.

Faith alone does not profit because we are already justified by faith, for the believer’s judgement before God it is works that will be Rewarded, that is why he is stressing works

As well he plainly states that dead faith is faith that is alone….works are not to save but to bear witness of who we are in Christ and for eternal rewards.

Dead here means ineffective.

Well UG
I do love that sentence I highlighted.,,
So i works are to bear witness to who we are in Christ,
and we don't do good works,

What does that say about who we are in Christ?

So if we're OUT OF CHRIST, we're not saved.

The problem is that you believe that once one is saved they are Always saved?

That, unfortunately for you, is also a false gospel.

I've posted so much scripture and I see it's pretty useless.
Just use your common sense.

IF FAITH SAVES US, And faith is DEAD without good works,

Then what happens if we do not have good works?
OUR FAITH IS DEAD.
And we are NO LONGER saved.

Common sense.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do agree with you, however, I do believe we must protect and contend for the gospel.

There are some here that are teaching salvation by works plain and simple, that is an error we must always defend against.

Those that are defending the true simple gospel are the ones mostly under attack, having read through this thread several times (since it seems my work avoidance strategy these days ) you will see that we are constantly subjected to false accusations and are maligned.

If we defend too strongly, sometimes, it is because we have some small knowledge in our spirit the very depths that Jesus suffered for our sake and how could we even begin to think we could add to that work.

So if we show anger it is against this very repulsive travesty that says the cross was necessary but not sufficient.

I do not think it is personal rebuttal but is a rebuttal against a false gospel.

Hi Stunned,

Actually the Pharisees were not above reproach. They only obeyed what they chose to obey to give the impression that they were obeying the law. They did easy things that could be faked to have an outward appearance of loving God and obeying Him.

Matthew 23:23-24

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

~ The law required tithing
which they did
~ The law required mercy, justice, faithfulness
which they did not do

Tithing is easy for anyone to do - outward appearance

Mercy, justice, faithfulness takes faith, the new birth (the faith of Abraham)

The epitome of hypocrisy is to tell others how to live, but not live it yourself.

This is one thing that they did correctly because Jesus told others to listen to them, so what they taught was good, but Jesus said don't do what they do. They didn't live what they preached.

The devoured widows houses
Made long prayers
They were great house cleaners
But full of robbery and self indulgence
They looked pretty on the outside
But their dead bones were hypocrisy and lawlessness

The pharisees wanted the praise of men, but didn't want the praise of God.

So what Jesus is saying is that we need more than an outward appearance, we need the inward living it out that can only come by the new birth (the faith of Abraham).

For us today, the faith of Abraham is the fulfillment of the mystery, Christ in you the hope of glory.

So what we teach, we need to be living the truth and not be like the Pharisee who says all the right and correct doctrines, teachings, but didn't live out the truth. The righteous requirements of the law were elusive to them because they lacked faith.

The question we need to ask ourselves is that now that we're in Christ are we walking out the truth for others to see?

Many here use the Pharisees as an example of those who promote works (obedience) after salvation.

It really judges both sides of the issue.

Those who promote obedience (works) after salvation ...... what's going on in their heart. Do they love and produce the fruits of righteousness? ..... those Jesus spoke of which is a life in Him where everything is birthed from love.

Those who promote grace, are they full of grace so that the grace is seen in how they walk out their life showing fruits of righteousness.....which again is living love towards others as fruit; it's lived out from the new man in Christ instead of the old man.

Those on both sides need to love in word and action. Is that going on in here? Loving one another is God's grace at work in the believer.

When we speak and disagree - are we motivated because we love the other person, or are we wanting to be right? are we angry? are we getting back because the other attacked us and hurt our feelings, our pride? do we think we know more? is knowledge puffing us up?

The Pharisees are a lesson for all of us here. Not one side over the other. They are an example for us all.

And for all of the posts, I think we all agree that Jesus is the way the truth the life. No man comes to the father except through the Son.

We all believe that we're saved by grace through faith. We all believe that works will follow those who believe, that we'll live a life of ongoing obedience to the Lord.

Most of us agree that we confess our sin and ask for God's forgiveness and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We all believe that we're on a journey. Some of us are at different levels of maturity. So why are we beating up our own?

Those of us here, let's take the Lord's words seriously and ask ourself if we are living in hypocrisy or are we living the true grace of love towards others.

Disagreements are good and healthy. But the battling it out with put downs, belittling, name-calling, accusations, judgements and the like does not come from the Spirit of Christ.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”1 John 4:7; John 13:34-35

 

[JIMBO43]

after the Cross?

after the cross we can be connected to the vine more intimately.. nothing more nothing less....he speaks of the vine as his kingdom.. the tree in the vine scripture repesents his kingdom and not the tree of life..

 

[FranC]

im not saying those are good things........... what im saying is: i dont know any christian who doesn't do ANY of the things listed in galatians 5:19-21 or "things like that"..............
im just trying to be realistic, we're all outta luck when it comes to inheriting the Kingdom......... maybe thats why Jesus died because we cant make it otherwise.
i see where u are coming from i used to think the same way too but when u put on the reality glasses and check urself and the christians around u, u will notice that we all kinda fall flat on our face.............

I agree with the above.
But reread what you wrote in post no. 29163:

compare romans 14:17 and think about it too, who doesnt still do those after getting saved??????? i dont know of any who doesnt do atleast some of those in the bold:
Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy,outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy,drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

See? You're saying that Christians don't do at least SOME of those things... and I'm not talking about getting angry!

So, why encourage sin? Wouldn't it be better to just say that we are to AVOID these sins?
We all know we sin. We should encourage each other NOT TO.

And look at the last sentence of the verse:

that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Wouidn't it be better to say that we are not to do these things? There might be new Christians reading along. Your previous statement makes it seem like the sins mentiioned are to be expected.

They are NOT to be expected. Although we will Always sin, let's at least proclaim that it's an abnormality and that we are dead to sin , as many here state.

2 John 1:9

 

[JIMBO43]

Jimbo, just for you. You can take it or leave it. It's up to you.


Declaring His Work!

We have returned to the Garden of Eden
Brought into His presence, made whole by the Lamb.
Satans lies crushed underfoot as we enter..
Truth is our breastplate, and light floods our stand.

Victory of blood, Royal blood out from Heaven
No stain of sin, given once for all men
Born into Him..Son of God, son of mankind
Covering; purging....flowing within.

Now we an army, attired in white linen
Helmets salvation encloses our head
Righteousness pinning lusts serpentine yearnings
Peace reigns our hearts touching others for Him.

He leads His army, His Voice individual
Yet, corporate as all move in Spirit as One
His-story shouting in signs and in wonders
Gathering all for His home filled with love.

you can take this or leave it to.. adam and eve where in the garden and got disconnected but still had the chance to come back.. as why else would he cloth them..

its no diffrent now we have the chance to be reconnected and in the garden,, but only in spirit and not body like they where.. we will only be truly in the garden again when we recieve are new bodies... put that in ya pipe and smoke it...

 

[UnderGrace]

You are the one that believes we can be out of Christ.
And you still do not understand James

Reductionist thinking again.

The only reason I continually offer rebuttals is for the poor innocent soul (who was me one time) does not fall for this false gospel that is tortuous to live out......and believe me this is work

Well UG
I do love that sentence I highlighted.,,
So i works are to bear witness to who we are in Christ,
and we don't do good works,

What does that say about who we are in Christ?

So if we're OUT OF CHRIST, we're not saved.

The problem is that you believe that once one is saved they are Always saved?

That, unfortunately for you, is also a false gospel.

I've posted so much scripture and I see it's pretty useless.
Just use your common sense.

IF FAITH SAVES US, And faith is DEAD without good works,

Then what happens if we do not have good works?
OUR FAITH IS DEAD.
And we are NO LONGER saved.

Common sense.