The Trinity Discussion

[Dagallen]

Instead of drawing people, some on here continue to drive people away, as God draws people unto His Son, God doesn't drive people away, interesting !

 

[bluto]

Instead of drawing people, some on here continue to drive people away, as God draws people unto His Son, God doesn't drive people away, interesting !

No dagallen, bronson chose to leave of his own free will. Was Jesus driving the rich young ruler away when He confronted him at Matthew 19;16-22? The ruler did not like what Jesus said at vs22 and "HE WENT AWAY GRIEVED." In like manner, bronson does not like to be confronted with the truth so he picked up his toys and left. So dagallen, are you going to leave? Personally, I hope not.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Dagallen]

No dagallen, bronson chose to leave of his own free will. Was Jesus driving the rich young ruler away when He confronted him at Matthew 19;16-22? The ruler did not like what Jesus said at vs22 and "HE WENT AWAY GRIEVED." In like manner, bronson does not like to be confronted with the truth so he picked up his toys and left. So dagallen, are you going to leave? Personally, I hope not.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I have no just cause to leave.

 

[jaybird88]

No dagallen, bronson chose to leave of his own free will. Was Jesus driving the rich young ruler away when He confronted him at Matthew 19;16-22? The ruler did not like what Jesus said at vs22 and "HE WENT AWAY GRIEVED." In like manner, bronson does not like to be confronted with the truth so he picked up his toys and left. So dagallen, are you going to leave? Personally, I hope not.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

he didnt say bronson was forced against his will to leave, he said he was driven away and im assuming he is referring to all the insults and false accusations thrown his way. far from the "truth" as you put it.
if the doctrine of the trinity is truth, and this doctrine was established by roman councils, what of these other doctrines they established that were very far from the truth, such as the earth being the center of the universe? if one knows enough scripture they can make a doctrine on anything.

 

[Dagallen]

he didnt say bronson was forced against his will to leave, he said he was driven away and im assuming he is referring to all the insults and false accusations thrown his way. far from the "truth" as you put it.
if the doctrine of the trinity is truth, and this doctrine was established by roman councils, what of these other doctrines they established that were very far from the truth, such as the earth being the center of the universe? if one knows enough scripture they can make a doctrine on anything.

If a person wants to use a trinity concept to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, I don't have a problem with it, when can it become a problem ? When people try to force others to accept it, as though it's the only way to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, force is a problem. I believe there are many ways to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, each to their own.

 

[valiant]

he didnt say bronson was forced against his will to leave, he said he was driven away and im assuming he is referring to all the insults and false accusations thrown his way.

LOL just look at the insults he poured on me

f

ar from the "truth" as you put it. if the doctrine of the trinity is truth, and this doctrine was established by roman councils,

It a not established by Roman councils. They merely confirmed it as the following make clear.
[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Polycarp[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 69–155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Letter to the Philippians[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] he says,[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[/FONT][1]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Ignatius[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 50–117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]and of Jesus Christ our God;[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.[/FONT][2]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]through the blood of God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.[/FONT][3]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]God in man[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.[/FONT][4]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]our God, Jesus the Christ[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.[/FONT][5]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][6]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]our God Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]is more visible now that he is in the Father.[/FONT][7]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT][8]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif],[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] who for our sake endured in every way.[/FONT][9]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Justin Martyr[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 100–165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]And that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.[/FONT][10]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][11]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][12]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]The Father of the universe has [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....[/FONT][13]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][14]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Melito of Sardis[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]God put to death[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]! [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]because they slew God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.[/FONT][15]​

 

[valiant]

An the following:

Irenaeus of Lyons[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 130–202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif][/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.[/FONT][16]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He was very God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.[/FONT][17]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif],[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]according to the will of the invisible Father.[/FONT][18]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.[/FONT][19]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]His essence, that He is God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.[/FONT][20]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Clement of Alexandria[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 150–215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He alone being both, both God and man[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][21]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe;[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....[/FONT][22]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Tertullian[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 150–225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Christ is also God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][23]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Thus [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]and the two are one.[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] In this way also, as [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], He is made a second in manner of existence—[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]in position, not in nature[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]His birth God and man united[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][24]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]they are distinct from each other.[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction;[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter…even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]they are distinct in personality[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]?[/FONT][25]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]As if in this way also one were not All, in that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]All are of One[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]by unity (that is) of substance[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]yet of one substance[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], and of one condition, and of one power, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]inasmuch as He is one God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][26]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Hippolytus of Rome[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] (AD 170–235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]the Logos is God, being the substance of God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][27]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]God the Word[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]not emptied of divinity[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]; but as, while in Hades, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He was in essential being with His Father[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.[/FONT][28]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]God the Word[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif].[/FONT][29]​

[FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]God the Word came down from heaven[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]was manifested as God in a body[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]though demonstrated as God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif], He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif]He who as God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Palatino, serif] has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.[/FONT][30]​

 

[valiant]

If a person wants to use a trinity concept to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, I don't have a problem with it, when can it become a problem ? When people try to force others to accept it, as though it's the only way to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, force is a problem. I believe there are many ways to explain God, the Son, the Holy Spirit, each to their own.

If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is truly God you will die in your sins,

 

[bluto]

he didnt say bronson was forced against his will to leave, he said he was driven away and im assuming he is referring to all the insults and false accusations thrown his way. far from the "truth" as you put it.
if the doctrine of the trinity is truth, and this doctrine was established by roman councils, what of these other doctrines they established that were very far from the truth, such as the earth being the center of the universe? if one knows enough scripture they can make a doctrine on anything.

Well you "assume" wrong jaybird. Show me the "insults" your talking about, what are they? Secondly, I don't give a rats behind about roman councils and proving the trinity. My whole purpose and I've said this on numerous times is not the Trinity but who is Jesus Christ? I've even stated numerous that I don't believe the trinity is a requirement of salvation.

The point is that I like to keep things simple and I go out of my way to explain things in simple terms that are easy to understand. If a person brings up the trinity I will defend it by telling them what I just told you. "Who is Jesus Christ?" This is the same question Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:15,16. Read it for yourself jaybird.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Dagallen]

If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is truly God you will die in your sins,

Where does it say that in scriptures ?

 

[Dagallen]

If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is truly God you will die in your sins,

Where does it say that in scriptures ?

 

[Magenta]

Where does it say that in scriptures ?

John Chapter eight. Jesus is discussing Who He is and where He came from (Heaven, the Father) and says to the scribes and pharisees that if you do not believe Who I am, you will die in your sins.

 

[Terrie431]

Hi Dagallen! I'm interested to know: What are these "many ways" you believe that explain God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit, other than the Trinity (or Triune God)? Thanks.

 

[Dagallen]

John Chapter eight. Jesus is discussing Who He is and where He came from (Heaven, the Father) and says to the scribes and pharisees that if you do not believe Who I am, you will die in your sins.

1John 3:1 what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us. ( this book and chapter speaks of the commandment given by the Father, now I think we all know that Jesus is not the Father, let's us follow therefore the commandment of the Father that is given ? ) 3:23 And this is His ( the Father's ) commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He ( the Father ) gave us commandment. Pretty clear don't you think ? John 20:31 But to these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing you might have life through his name. ( Don't you think that's pretty clear ? ) I am the Christ, the Son of God, isn't that what is revealed ?

 

[valiant]

Where does it say that in scriptures ?

John 8.24... if you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins

 

[Dagallen]

Hi Dagallen! I'm interested to know: What are these "many ways" you believe that explain God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit, other than the Trinity (or Triune God)? Thanks.

Hello to you, not sure who you are.

 

[Dagallen]

John 8.24... if you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins

I think you need to read all of chapter 8, cheey picking is not wise ? John 8:27-28 it's best to read all of chapter 8.

 

[jaybird88]

Where does it say that in scriptures ?

there is no scripture that says that. they are taking John 8 24 and adding to it.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

John 8.24... if you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins

I think you need to read all of chapter 8, cheey picking is not wise ? John 8:27-28 it's best to read all of chapter 8.

I have read the whole of chapter 8, leading up to the great statement 'before Abraham was, I AM', a direct claim to be Yahweh

In chapter He carefully led up to that statement:

He began with 'I AM the light of the world', a claim to Godhead, which He immediately followed with 'I know from where I came and where I am going' and 'I AM from above, you are of this world, I am not of this world'.

He also said, 'If you had known Me you would have known My Father as well.'

It was then that He said that 'if you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins'.

He followed it with, 'I am not alone, but I and the Father Who sent Me'.

It was then that He said, 'Before Abraham was , I AM.'

He was undoubtedly claiming unique relationship, with the Father and claiming to be Yahweh (Ex 3).

 

[Magenta]

No dagallen, bronson chose to leave of his own free will.

He was banned.