Not By Works

[PennEd]

Not sure how you got that he was saying they were saved...

Yeah. Thats why I asked for a clarification.

THIS paragraph seems to be saying that they were saved, born again, but their lack of "relationship" caused them to lose their salvation. So there was something THEY didn't do to stay saved.

"This is about relationship ​POST SALVATION and nothing to do with salvation or refuting works to obtain salvation....and everything to do with intimate relationship...Matt 7.23 rightly divides with Rev 3.20, which has been used by the church for years as a salvation scripture, but it is furthest from the truth....it is all about relationship post salvation..."

 

[Magenta]

Not sure how you got that he was saying they were saved...

There were a few recently claiming that Judas was saved, even though Jesus knew from the beginning who was going to betray Him (something else a few of them denied), and Jesus also said that Judas was not clean. Same idea, though I have not read all the posts that lead up to this one... just got home

 

[TruthTalk]

The older son represents the Pharisees. They never left the father's house in an open rebellion and riotous living in a squandering of the inheritance.

The Prodigal Son represents the tax collectors and prostitutes. They are the ones who turned away and squandered the inheritance. And they are the ones who came back home at the preaching of John the Baptist.

This one is astounding also!!

I too am astonished at the poor use of biblical interpretation; and no verses to establish the truth.
Every Christian should have some knowledge of right and wrong interpretation; My most unfavorite misuse of interpretation of the bible is how some people will over spiritualize parts of scripture; they twist the scriptures beyond what the text teacher,and take you on a long wild tangent that has nothing to do with the context.

Amazing what people will do to twist the meaning of scripture; to support their own twisted thinking. "It was the cause of division and destruction in the Corinthian Church." Bible.org

Attribute: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-6-principles-biblical-interpretation

General Principles of Biblical Interpretation:

Principle 1: Interpretation must be based on the author’s intention of meaning and not the reader.
Principle 2: Interpretations must be done in the context of the passage.
Principle 3: Interpret the Bible literally (or normally) allowing for normal use of figurative language.
Principle 4: Use the Bible to help interpret itself.
Principle 5: Interpretation must be distinguished from application.
Principle 6: Be sensitive to distinctions between Israel and the church and Old Covenant and New Covenant requirements.
Principle 7: Be sensitive to the type of literature you are in.

God bless!

 

[Desertsrose]

The prodigal son parable also speaks loudly of God's amazing grace and shows how God's desire is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

It took the young son to go and wallow in the mire with the pigs. And he realized what a wasted life he chose and that even the pigs he was caring for were eating better than he did.

I love the visual of the Father seeing his son from afar. Being moved with compassion, He runs towards him when he saw him, and He hugged and kissed him. Can you just picture the dad running with all his might?

And then he puts a robe on him, a ring on his finger, puts sandals on his feet and kills the fatted calf. And his whole household (except the older brother), servants and all celebrate the return of his youngest son. God's amazing grace!!!

1. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
   That saved a wretch like me!
   I once was lost, but now am found;
   Was blind, but now I see.
2. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
   And grace my fears relieved;
   How precious did that grace appear
   The hour I first believed.
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares,
   I have already come;
   ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
   And grace will lead me home.
4. The Lord has promised good to me,
   His Word my hope secures;
   He will my Shield and Portion be,
   As long as life endures.
5. Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
   And mortal life shall cease,
   I shall possess, within the veil,
   A life of joy and peace.
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
   The sun forbear to shine;
   But God, who called me here below,
   Will be forever mine.
7. When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
   Bright shining as the sun,
   We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
   Than when we’d first begun.

 

[Magenta]

There were a few recently claiming that Judas was saved, even though Jesus knew from the beginning who was going to betray Him (something else a few of them denied), and Jesus also said that Judas was not clean. Same idea, though I have not read all the posts that lead up to this one... just got home

Just to clarify: those who were insisting that Judas was saved did so simply on the basis that he was among those who followed Jesus, and was chosen as an apostle. They also scoffed at the idea of him not being saved because he was sent out to do works (though we have no record of his "good" works, only "bad" works), and then one in particular mocked the idea that not all who do works are saved. Of course, that is one of the dividing lines too, isn't it? Those who think that doing works will save them when even Jesus said He will say, "I never knew you" to some who will claim to have done works in his name (including casting out demons).

 

[TruthTalk]

Just to clarify: those who were insisting that Judas was saved did so simply on the basis that he was among those who followed Jesus, and was chosen as an apostle. They also scoffed at the idea of him not being saved because he was sent out to do works (though we have no record of his "good" works, only "bad" works), and then one in particular mocked the idea that not all who do works are saved. Of course, that is one of the dividing lines too, isn't it? Those who think that doing works will save them when even Jesus said He will say, "I never knew you" to some who will claim to have done works in his name (including casting out demons).

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14) Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests
15) and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
16) From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
Matthew26:14-16

Premeditated betrayal of our Lord; why the sympathy for someone who took part in the premeditated murder of our Lord; a tree is better measured when it is laid flat; guilty on all charges, wouldn't you agree.

 

[loveme1]

Matthew 27

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.



we all have the moment where we realise we are condemned and Repent... we all have sinned and betrayed innocent blood.. it is what happens when we realise this.. and Judas was not gloating and pleased enjoying the money he made.. no he repented himself.

Work out out your own salvation with fear and trembling....

 

[Magenta]

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14) Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests
15) and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
16) From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
Matthew26:14-16

Premeditated betrayal of our Lord; why the sympathy for someone who took part in the premeditated murder of our Lord; a tree is better measured when it is laid flat; guilty on all charges, wouldn't you agree.

I think they needed to say Judas was saved at one time so they could claim it is possible to lose salvation. Jesus called Judas the son of perdition. The root of that word ( ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ , perdition, Strong's 684. apóleia) is the same as word 622, perish (ἀπόλλυμι) which means, utter destruction, the fate promised to non believers in the second death.

 

[TruthTalk]

Gosh...this is wonderful. It sounds like...song lyrics.

Not a top 40 Christian hit single; Possibly a good Sunday School worship song. I always liked the song, "Father Abraham has many kids, many kids has Father Abraham, and you are one of them and so am I, so lets just praise the Lord!" lalala!

In my mind I tried to reason;

Turn around Jonah; Turn around Jonah

God's gotta fish just a lookin' for you;

turn around Jonah. turn around

In my mind I tried to reason with Jonah to turn around and go God's way, but it took God's grace and a huge fish to accomplish that, thanks for asking....

 

[TruthTalk]

I think they needed to say Judas was saved at one time so they could claim it is possible to lose salvation. Jesus called Judas the son of perdition. The root of that word ( ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ , perdition, Strong's 684. apóleia) is the same as word 622, perish (ἀπόλλυμι) which means, utter destruction, the fate promised to non believers in the second death.

Twisting scripture, I think if it is done on purpose; to mislead people, to thinking their way; qualifies for teaching and spreading false doctrine; the same problem that corrupted the Corinthian Church.

 

[JIMBO43]

Twisting scripture, I think if it is done on purpose; to mislead people, to thinking their way; qualifies for teaching and spreading false doctrine; the same problem that corrupted the Corinthian Church.

hi I think you know deep down hardly anybody deliberately twists scripture on a Christian chat site.... You would have to be an atheist with an agenda to do that.. I find your post verry baiting to suggest that we aRe.. and no different to an atheist with an agenda..

Hmm I wonder if you'll see this innocent explanation of how hatred spreads like a plague

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm seeing great improvement brother!
Yesterday you posted a three word message with no typos. Here you have typed FOUR words without a typo!

I think my IPAD is just playing with me, gives me glimmers of hope, them BAMM! I post a nice long post and it makes me say things I never said, lol

 

[PeterJens]

There is a great danger in how people handle the things of God.

You literally become the attitude you take.

I imagine the spiritual reality is like a fresh clear stream flowing through a valley of clarity
and blessing. If you end up judging others, going way beyond either your understanding or
authority, you have polluted the stream, and contaminated your heart.

If your heart is full on anger, hurt and bitterness, it will show. The stream will not be clear,
clean and refreshing.

The ways of the Lord are without sin or hurt but a desire to let life and His glory shine.
So let us walk in this way, and leave the rest to the enemy, for he will always bring confusion
and discord.

Today is another day of blessing and opportunity to bring His love to this lost world.
So let us rejoice and walk forward. Amen

 

[Rosemaryx]

Bless you Rose....This was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but revealed to you by the Holy Spirit...

read through 1 Corinthians 2 tonight and let me know what you thought...

Hi Meggido...After reading 1 Corinthians 2, i learn that we have the mind of Christ, we have the Holy Spirit in us, God searches us because our spirit is connected to His, He can reveal His mysteries to us because we have the mind of Christ...We have godly wisdom, people without the Holy Spirit have their own worldly wisdom, which is foolishness, i also see that Jesus is our Wisdom before the foundations of the world, if people had understood this at the time, Jesus would not of been crucified...I will stop now because i am not really sure where i am going with this.Jesus being crucified was Gods plan to save the world from our sins, so i got something wrong in my typing, but i have kept it in to show you where i was thinking so i can be corrected...xox...

 

[willybob]

"works" can have 4 meanings in the text. it must be distinguished by context which works is being spoken of...1) works of faith, 2) works is used to express the ceremonial works of the law of Moses,3) the works of evil, and also man's invented ways to be saved 4) works done from an impure heart with guileful motives (doing that which is right but having the wrong motives) aka right for the wrong reasons.....one cannot use the word "works" in a blanket statement to form a doctrine, to do so is abusing contextual interpretation of scripture and creating a strawman....Always remember Paul said we are WORKERS TOGETHER with God.

Most do not understand that "Works of Faith" are NOT the same as "Works of the Law" which Paul spoke of 5 times in the book of Galatians. Notwithstanding, holiness is merely God's standard to remain in the kingdom. Hebrews 12:14, Matt 5:48.

be blessed

 

[preacher4truth]

Have to seriously depart from you here. These people weren't saved. Where did you get that idea from? Am I understanding you correctly? You think these people were saved? If they NEVER knew Him then by definition they were never born again.

If that is the case, then it appears you really DO believe works keep you saved. No condescension meant at all, but I feel a little grieved by your post here.

They're experts at preaching the lost as saved, and the saved as lost. Nothing will be left without wresting if it will suit their false gospel of loss of salvation teachings, even if truth has to take a back seat. Scripture is clear, Judas was never converted, those in Matthew 7:23 were never converted, those who depart from us were never converted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"works" can have 4 meanings in the text. it must be distinguished by context which works is being spoken of...1) works of faith, 2) works is used to express the ceremonial works of the law of Moses,3) the works of evil, and also man's invented ways to be saved 4) works done from an impure heart with guileful motives (doing that which is right but having the wrong motives) aka right for the wrong reasons.....one cannot use the word "works" in a blanket statement to form a doctrine, to do so is abusing contextual interpretation of scripture and creating a strawman....Always remember Paul said we are WORKERS TOGETHER with God.

Most do not understand that "Works of Faith" are NOT the same as "Works of the Law" which Paul spoke of 5 times in the book of Galatians. Notwithstanding, holiness is merely God's standard to remain in the kingdom. Hebrews 12:14, Matt 5:48.

be blessed

a work is a work is a work

a work is something you do which takes energy, which is done to accomplish a set goal, which in the end earns a wage, or a reward.

Any one who says we must work to gain, maintain or prevent from losing salvation, no matter how the term the word "work" is defined, is preaching a works based salvation and rejects grace.

 

[willybob]

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


without working out our salvation we receive grace to no means, having no effect, such as the seed sown among thorns...


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, (His power working in you) by love unfeigned,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, (grace) by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

again: man is a worker together with God to obtain a relationship of love that CANNOT be obtained by any other means possible....Notwithstanding, only by the free gift of forgiveness of PAST sins can one be reconciled back to God's favour through the work of repentance....

 

[mailmandan]

a work is a work is a work

a work is something you do which takes energy, which is done to accomplish a set goal, which in the end earns a wage, or a reward.

Any one who says we must work to gain, maintain or prevent from losing salvation, no matter how the term the word "work" is defined, is preaching a works based salvation and rejects grace.

I can see that willybob has bought into the same faulty logic as Roman Catholics and Campbellites in regards to works. They try to dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

Here is a statement from a Campbellite that I was in a discussion with - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."

I did not realize that Christ needed our help. Of course, that statement is an oxymoron because works of obedience cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law and if we were saved by works of obedience, that would be works of merit.

Works of the law covers works in general (Matthew 22:37-40), which is why Paul not only said that we are not saved by works/works of the law, but he also said not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5) and he also said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9). So the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


without working out our salvation we receive grace to no means, having no effect, such as the seed sown among thorns...


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, (His power working in you) by love unfeigned,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, (grace) by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

again: man is a worker together with God to obtain a relationship of love that CANNOT be obtained by any other means possible....Notwithstanding, only by the free gift of forgiveness of PAST sins can one be reconciled back to God's favour through the work of repentance....

you can't work your way to heaven God must work a work in you to save you, THEN after your saved and given the power, you WILL work the work of God