The information that you posted above has nothing to do with the Spirit indwelling people prior to Christ. You ignore the scripture that you gave you that directly tells you that the Spirit hadn't been given up to that point, for the scriptures that you presented which say nothing regarding this issue.
Preterists - Put up or shutter up
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I showed you through two very respected commentators what John 7:39 actually conveys. Man hasn't changed since the fall. Men in the flesh(the unregenerate lost person) can not please God. It was that way in OT days and is still a reality today.
Jesus blasted Nicodemus because he did not understand what Jesus told him that ppl must be born again before they can see the kingdom of God.
Elijah and Enoch where taken to heaven in the OT without tasting death. So God took two unregenerate ppl to heaven?
Abraham was called a friend of God. That shows me there was regeneration in that man's spirit. Regeneration is where a new heart is given to ppl. You are proclaiming ppl saved without being born again, without a new heart and spirit. The bible never avers this.
Jesus blasted Nicodemus because he did not understand what Jesus told him that ppl must be born again before they can see the kingdom of God.
Elijah and Enoch where taken to heaven in the OT without tasting death. So God took two unregenerate ppl to heaven?
Abraham was called a friend of God. That shows me there was regeneration in that man's spirit. Regeneration is where a new heart is given to ppl. You are proclaiming ppl saved without being born again, without a new heart and spirit. The bible never avers this.
I seriously cannot connect your reply with my post or the topic of this thread. Your values seem more relative to this world than to heaven.
First century Christians had a very clear vision of what was promised to them in heaven. The vision of heaven is what sustained them through the trials and persecutions of this world. Jesus warned that even worse yea much worse was ahead in the end times for Israel.
Do not lose sight of the point that the end times are appointed to Israel and not the church. Those who fled to the mountains then prayed that the mountains would fall on them to hide them from the terrible judgment God was bringing on the world.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
First century Christians had a very clear vision of what was promised to them in heaven. The vision of heaven is what sustained them through the trials and persecutions of this world. Jesus warned that even worse yea much worse was ahead in the end times for Israel.
Do not lose sight of the point that the end times are appointed to Israel and not the church. Those who fled to the mountains then prayed that the mountains would fall on them to hide them from the terrible judgment God was bringing on the world.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I went back and forth too for a long time. I kept forgetting that prophecy leaps forward and jumps back and then leaps forward again, with no indication given to us that this is what is happening.
But, there are also sometimes different events in different time frames being spoken of. They couldn't seem to reconcile the seemingly contradicting statements about what the Messiah would do when He came because they didn't know there were two time frames being spoken of.
God causes things to repeat. I think the same misunderstanding has come to us as came to them. And even just a cursory reading causes confusion because in one verse God seems to be saying the wicked will be removed and then in another, that the righteous will be removed. This is why we go back and forth, because it is confusing to our minds to try to grasp how both things are true unless we remember how prophecy jumps forward and back.
But as I said, I understand how you are seeing it.
But, there are also sometimes different events in different time frames being spoken of. They couldn't seem to reconcile the seemingly contradicting statements about what the Messiah would do when He came because they didn't know there were two time frames being spoken of.
God causes things to repeat. I think the same misunderstanding has come to us as came to them. And even just a cursory reading causes confusion because in one verse God seems to be saying the wicked will be removed and then in another, that the righteous will be removed. This is why we go back and forth, because it is confusing to our minds to try to grasp how both things are true unless we remember how prophecy jumps forward and back.
But as I said, I understand how you are seeing it.
They thought you were looking for a fight and not really wanting to hear the opinions of others about endtime scriptures. It's clear that you really do want to hear everyone.
I even understand how preterists see it. I personally think they believe sometimes that less than full fulfillments are THE full fulfillment, because some portions didn't yet happen, and I think of them as shadows, but not the full fulfillment.
But I do understand how they are seeing it.
I even understand how preterists see it.
I personally think they believe sometimes that less than full fulfillments are THE full fulfillment, because some portions didn't yet happen, and I think of them as shadows, but not the full fulfillment.But I do understand how they are seeing it.
Clearly you have swallowed the anti-Pre-Tribulation-Rapture propaganda hook, line sinker (as have too many Christians). But the facts of the matter are (and I'll leave the Scripture references for now, since you should look them up):
1. The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the Rapture (the catching up of the saints within the Church) would be imminent.
2. The apostle Paul taught the exact same doctrine.
3. The Christians of the first century believed that Christ could come for them at any moment and unexpectedly.
4. Some of the Early Church Fathers held to the same doctrine.
5. Following the rise of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, this doctrine was neglected or denied.
6. The Reformers were so focused on the doctrines pertaining to salvation that they simply did not address Bible prophecy properly, and believed with Augustine that the Church had replaced Israel and that the Millennium was already in existence as an indefinite period of time.
7. In the 19th century there were many Christian brethren who turned away from the prevailing ideas about the Rapture and the Second Coming and took a fresh look at Bible prophecy, particularly since Zionism had become a strong movement. Among these men were Darby, Scofield, and many other men who were well-versed in the Bible. Christians (who should know better) revile these men, but they were genuine Christians who had rejected the traditions of men and wanted to preach and practice what was actually in the Bible.
8. Following the establishment of the nation-state of Israel in 1948, many Christians such as Sir Robert Anderson and others recognized that the promises, covenants, and prophecies pertaining to redeemed and restored Israel under Christ would be fulfilled. Thus the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches (outside mainline denominations) accepted the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ for His saints as true Bible doctrine.
9. Some fringe groups and some preachers went too far with this and began date-setting, when it was clearly forbidden. As a result they were thoroughly embarrassed when Christ did not literally return and take them to Heaven. The Seventh Day Adventists then started tampering with Bible interpretation to save face and try to justify why their predictions had failed.
10. Those who hold to Covenant Theology and Reformed Theology are confused about these matters, and instead of searching them out from Scripture afresh, they make ad hominem attacks on the men who brought these teachings before Christians.
11. The bottom line is that had none of those 19th century preachers and teachers existed, any Christian could study the Bible for himself and discover that the Rapture is not tied to any Tribulation or Great Tribulation, but could happen today (if the Lord so wished). That is why Christ said "LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED".
1. The Lord Jesus Christ taught that the Rapture (the catching up of the saints within the Church) would be imminent.
2. The apostle Paul taught the exact same doctrine.
3. The Christians of the first century believed that Christ could come for them at any moment and unexpectedly.
4. Some of the Early Church Fathers held to the same doctrine.
5. Following the rise of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, this doctrine was neglected or denied.
6. The Reformers were so focused on the doctrines pertaining to salvation that they simply did not address Bible prophecy properly, and believed with Augustine that the Church had replaced Israel and that the Millennium was already in existence as an indefinite period of time.
7. In the 19th century there were many Christian brethren who turned away from the prevailing ideas about the Rapture and the Second Coming and took a fresh look at Bible prophecy, particularly since Zionism had become a strong movement. Among these men were Darby, Scofield, and many other men who were well-versed in the Bible. Christians (who should know better) revile these men, but they were genuine Christians who had rejected the traditions of men and wanted to preach and practice what was actually in the Bible.
8. Following the establishment of the nation-state of Israel in 1948, many Christians such as Sir Robert Anderson and others recognized that the promises, covenants, and prophecies pertaining to redeemed and restored Israel under Christ would be fulfilled. Thus the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches (outside mainline denominations) accepted the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ for His saints as true Bible doctrine.
9. Some fringe groups and some preachers went too far with this and began date-setting, when it was clearly forbidden. As a result they were thoroughly embarrassed when Christ did not literally return and take them to Heaven. The Seventh Day Adventists then started tampering with Bible interpretation to save face and try to justify why their predictions had failed.
10. Those who hold to Covenant Theology and Reformed Theology are confused about these matters, and instead of searching them out from Scripture afresh, they make ad hominem attacks on the men who brought these teachings before Christians.
11. The bottom line is that had none of those 19th century preachers and teachers existed, any Christian could study the Bible for himself and discover that the Rapture is not tied to any Tribulation or Great Tribulation, but could happen today (if the Lord so wished). That is why Christ said "LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED".
On what grounds do you say "it is not the Holy Spirit that is caught up"? There is only One who can restrain sin and evil in this world, and only One who can restrain Satan and control him. And that is God. God the Holy Spirit is on earth today not only for the sake of the Church but to bring sinners to the Savior and also to restrain sin and evil. Hence we have "BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL" in the Lord's Prayer. And we pray to the Father to deliver us from evil, and if God would not control and restrain evil, then there could be no deliverance.
Now we are plainly told that the Man of Sin (the Antichrist) can only take total control of this world when the One who restrains is "taken out the way". Meaning the hindrance to Satan (who possesses the Antichrist) is removed for 3 1/2 years. There is no angel or human being who can restrain Satan. That should be perfectly clear from the book of Job, where God stipulated how far Satan could go against Job.
It is only because God the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way that we can see how this will become a reality (Rev 13:4,5,7):
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [3 1/2 yrs] who is able to make war with him?...And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Now we are plainly told that the Man of Sin (the Antichrist) can only take total control of this world when the One who restrains is "taken out the way". Meaning the hindrance to Satan (who possesses the Antichrist) is removed for 3 1/2 years. There is no angel or human being who can restrain Satan. That should be perfectly clear from the book of Job, where God stipulated how far Satan could go against Job.
It is only because God the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way that we can see how this will become a reality (Rev 13:4,5,7):
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [3 1/2 yrs] who is able to make war with him?...And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
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My friend. Let me reply with questions.... Who has dominion in the Earth? Who is the one designated to have authority over all the Earth and all its inhabitants? Who is the one who calls things legal or illegal, and heaven backs it up? Who has been given authority over all the hounds of hell, to kick devil butt all over the map? So far your spiel is no more than religious ignorance, (Its only funny because of the way it looks on one so intelligent as you) and the bible does not line up with what you say.
If the Lords prayer had been translated properly it would line up with the Word, but as it is....It does not. The Lords prayer properly translated would be a series of statements of faith.
" Our Father which art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done in earth
as it is in heaven
YOu give us this day our daily bread
And you forgive us our debts
as we forgive our debtors
You lead us not into temptation
but YOU deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom
and the power, and the glory
Forever
Amen"
There is not a single request in it. And it all lines up with the rest of the Word.
So....God has authority over the fiends of hell.....and who else has that authority?
I want you to show me one place where the rapture takes place prior to His second coming. His second coming is not the rapture but the consummation of the ages.
Where does it explicitly state the rapture is pre-trib? Its not there. Its just not there.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.[Matthew 24:29-31]
Jesus plainly states here that at His coming again, He will gather His elect from the four winds. This coincides with Paul's teachings in 1 Cor. 15:51-58, 1 Thess. 4:13-18, Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28,29. It is IMMEDIATELY after the tribulations of those days that we will see Him coming in the cloud, and not before.
Where does it explicitly state the rapture is pre-trib? Its not there. Its just not there.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.[Matthew 24:29-31]
Jesus plainly states here that at His coming again, He will gather His elect from the four winds. This coincides with Paul's teachings in 1 Cor. 15:51-58, 1 Thess. 4:13-18, Jesus' teaching in Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28,29. It is IMMEDIATELY after the tribulations of those days that we will see Him coming in the cloud, and not before.
I went back and forth too for a long time. I kept forgetting that prophecy leaps forward and jumps back and then leaps forward again, with no indication given to us that this is what is happening.
But, there are also sometimes different events in different time frames being spoken of. They couldn't seem to reconcile the seemingly contradicting statements about what the Messiah would do when He came because they didn't know there were two time frames being spoken of.
God causes things to repeat. I think the same misunderstanding has come to us as came to them. And even just a cursory reading causes confusion because in one verse God seems to be saying the wicked will be removed and then in another, that the righteous will be removed. This is why we go back and forth, because it is confusing to our minds to try to grasp how both things are true unless we remember how prophecy jumps forward and back.
But as I said, I understand how you are seeing it.
But, there are also sometimes different events in different time frames being spoken of. They couldn't seem to reconcile the seemingly contradicting statements about what the Messiah would do when He came because they didn't know there were two time frames being spoken of.
God causes things to repeat. I think the same misunderstanding has come to us as came to them. And even just a cursory reading causes confusion because in one verse God seems to be saying the wicked will be removed and then in another, that the righteous will be removed. This is why we go back and forth, because it is confusing to our minds to try to grasp how both things are true unless we remember how prophecy jumps forward and back.
But as I said, I understand how you are seeing it.
Actually, it is found in the word where He was to come twice but they didn't see it. So they must have had a tough time trying to make sense of verses that both spoke of him as ruling and as dying.
So there is precedence in the word that He was to come twice.
And I see it happening again. In things like...how some verses seem to say the righteous are removed and others that the wicked are removed. I used to read them with such confusion, wondering, well which is it??
My confusion mostly left me when I suddenly saw that I was trying to fit together what couldn't be fit together.
Another repeat I see is that He will seemingly come from three different places...AGAIN! From Bozrah with robes stained red, and...hmm...don't remember the other two at this moment...sorry. I can just imagine the arguments they had over where the Messiah would come from! But He proved to come from all three places, just as was foretold!
I know you don't see it and that's okay with me. I see it though. I can't unsee it now that I have seen it. And neither can you see something you just don't see.
So there is precedence in the word that He was to come twice.
And I see it happening again. In things like...how some verses seem to say the righteous are removed and others that the wicked are removed. I used to read them with such confusion, wondering, well which is it??
My confusion mostly left me when I suddenly saw that I was trying to fit together what couldn't be fit together.
Another repeat I see is that He will seemingly come from three different places...AGAIN! From Bozrah with robes stained red, and...hmm...don't remember the other two at this moment...sorry.
I can just imagine the arguments they had over where the Messiah would come from! But He proved to come from all three places, just as was foretold!I know you don't see it and that's okay with me. I see it though. I can't unsee it now that I have seen it. And neither can you see something you just don't see.