Faith and Salvation

[Grace777x70]

Obedience in the New Covenant of the gospel of the grace of God is relying on Jesus for righteousness and goodness and life and blessing and salvation in all it's different aspects.

Disobedience to the faith in the New Covenant is relying on our own righteousness, our own doing of good.

 

[Jackson123]

repent is not a work, it is a change of thinking,

it it is impossible for them to have faith and not when works either,

yep good work is evident of faith, in the plain English, What James going to say is: if a man say he have faith and no good work, he is a liar and not save.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yep good work is evident of faith, in the plain English, What James going to say is: if a man say he have faith and no good work, he is a liar and not save.

yes, Not that they lost salvation, but that they never had it to begin with. because they were hearers only, No faith.

 

[DJ2]

repent is not a work, it is a change of thinking,

it it is impossible for them to have faith and not when works either,

Repentance is most certainly a work.

There is a clear intent when someone repents, therefore repentance is a work. What kind of work is another issue, never the less it is a work.

By the way "thinking" and "faith" are works by definition also.

Your not knowing what is and is not a work is a result of your "trust only" theology. You see "works" under every rock.

 

[Grace777x70]

We can become "fruit inspectors" in what is good works and what we determine as fruit changes from one denomination to another - depending on our church teachings and traditions.

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved )

So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

Is an orange tree still an orange tree if it hasn't been feed the proper nutrients to grow up to produce the actual orange itself? Of course it is - the orange tree was an orange tree from the start of the seed being created.


A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't.

We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Repentance is most certainly a work.

There is a clear intent when someone repents, therefore repentance is a work. What kind of work is another issue, never the less it is a work.

By the way "thinking" and "faith" are works by definition also.

Your not knowing what is and is not a work is a result of your "trust only" theology. You see "works" under every rock.

No repent is not a work, it is a work of God maybe like faith, which is a result of repentance, but it was s not your work.

 

[DJ2]

Obedience in the New Covenant of the gospel of the grace of God is relying on Jesus for righteousness and goodness and life and blessing and salvation in all it's different aspects.

Disobedience to the faith in the New Covenant is relying on our own righteousness, our own doing of good.

An early sign of apostasy is the redefining of basic language.

Obedience in no way means what you wrote. Obedience means the same in the Old Testament as it did in the New Testament. All words have their meanings, injecting your "trust only" slant does not change its intended usage.

We do not obey Jesus a certain way. We just obey. (Matthew 21:28-32)

Lean not on your own understanding but on what is clearly written.

 

[DJ2]

No repent is not a work, it is a work of God maybe like faith, which is a result of repentance, but it was s not your work.

Anything intended once done by definition is a work.

If man cannot have faith, repent or confess of his ability there is no point to this discussion.

 

[Jackson123]

Repentance is most certainly a work.

There is a clear intent when someone repents, therefore repentance is a work. What kind of work is another issue, never the less it is a work.

By the way "thinking" and "faith" are works by definition also.

Your not knowing what is and is not a work is a result of your "trust only" theology. You see "works" under every rock.

repent is verb/ work

[h=2]Definition of repent[/h]

• [h=6]intransitive verb[/h]
• 1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
  
• 2a : to feel regret or contritionb : to change one's mind
  
• [h=6]transitive verb[/h]
• 1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
  
• 2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

[h=2]repenter[/h] noun

NEW! Time Traveler
First Known Use: 14th century
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See repent defined for English-language learners
See repent defined for kids



[h=2]Read the Latest from M-W[/h]
but repentance is noun

re·pent·ance
rəˈpentəns/
noun

• the action of repenting; sincere regret or remorse.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"each person who turns to God in genuine repentance and faith will be saved"

• 
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]remorse, contrition, contriteness, penitence, regret, ruefulness, remorsefulness, shame, guilt"her lack of repentance angered them"
  
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  
  
  
  

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[Grace777x70]

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Philippians 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

The law is what people did or didn't do for their own righteousness.

All works-based righteousness is based on this truth and it is NOT the gospel of the grace of God in Christ. It is a religion.

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

Notice here that even the "good moral living" - law-keeping priests need to be "obedient to the faith". The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For someone to accept this twisted view of James 2:24 they must ignore normal reasoning and replace it with a complex set of mental gymnastics to reach such a obviously warped conclusion.

"You see then that it is by a student's test scores that they are advanced to the next grade and not by their study habits alone."

No one would read the above sentence and conclude that testing was not needed since grades were only proof that the student must have studied. That would be absurd and a classic example of circular reasoning.

"You must have studied for the test because you passed the test. Therefore you do not need to take the test."

Wait. Wait. Let me guess this too is but faulty human logic or a straw man because your superior Holy Spirit discernment told you so.

You seem very sincere but there is no virtue in holding onto a flawed train of thought. The "trust only" theology is a wreck waiting to happen.

talk about human logic, I hope you came up with this and not your church

James is talking to people and asking them to test their own faith, that's how he starts his first chapters the testing of YOUR father h produces patience, if you ask, ask in FAITH with no doubting, that take hold of the word, which s able to save your souls, (he just admittd, there are some who will read who are not yet saved) to be doers of the word and not just hearers, and how do we know we do this, we do these things, to not be a person who oppresses the poor, showing partiality

then he comes to the faith part, what dos State, what does it profit a person if he CLAIMS to have faith, but has no works (he does not do the things james said you should be doing up to this point, your a hearer only, not a doer, you show partiality. You do not love, you doubt, thus you may believe, but you have no faith) can THAT FAITH save him?

NO! It is a dead faith, it will never save anyone, period, James does not contradict Paul in rom 4 he compliments Paul,

abraham was saved by faith alone, if he was saved by work, he has something to boast about (he earned it), and it was a wage, not a gift,

yet abraham had true works after era he was saved, which proved his faith was real, he was not just a hearer of the word, he was a doer.

If abraham did nothing he would have proved he never had faith t begin with.

so sorry, your faulty logic is flawed,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anything intended once done by definition is a work.

If man cannot have faith, repent or confess of his ability there is no point to this discussion.

I can not agree, the definitions do not fit,

a work is done to earn a wage or reward,

repent is not done to me to earn a reward, it is taking all the information available to you, and making a decision on that information, one that changes from what your position was before you considered what God is showing you, i.e. Change of mind, but this enough will not save you, so no reward, no work

fath, jesus said in John 6 it was the work of God we believe in the one he sent, so it is Gods work not our own, God works in you to change your thinking, and proves to you he is trustworthy, so you say us to what he is offering, again, no work, because you did not d anything to earn the gift, it was given to you based on Gods work.

I fear you are to self focused man, I think you need to repent yourself before you try tell others to repent.

 

[heartofdavid]

Yet another salvation thread.

Maybe I can help. (I know,I reek of haughtiness) lol

Here goes;

Salvation is not a concept,a prayer,or a doctrine.

Salvation is a person.

His name is Jesus.

I don't know how some are "mentally saved"

That was not my experience. When me and Jesus met,he revealed himself as ( in) a whirlwind. I knew I had met God. The first words he spoke to me were" you are not your own,you have been bought with a price" . His anointing fell on he so strong I almost could not take it. I became a blubbering hunk of jelly.

And that was before I received the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

[heartofdavid]

That was my salvation.

Jesus is my salvation.

We can understand a few dynamics,but salvation is beyond understanding.

 

[heartofdavid]

Some people don't know if they are saved or not.

I encourage you to seek the savior,not a doctrinal mastery.

HE WILL MEET YOU. GUARANTEED.

YOU HAVE A GUARANTEE.
HE WILL MEET YOU.

 

[heartofdavid]

Not happened yet?

Press in. Keep pressing in. Then press in harder...and yet harder...and then harder still...

 

[heartofdavid]

...and then harder.....

 

[heartofdavid]

The parable of beating on the door,until the master agrees to provide.

I can tell you he honors all his word.

I can't tell you when....

I have used it many times.

 

[heartofdavid]

Yet another salvation thread.

Maybe I can help. (I know,I reek of haughtiness) lol

Here goes;

Salvation is not a concept,a prayer,or a doctrine.

Salvation is a person.

His name is Jesus.

I don't know how some are "mentally saved"

That was not my experience. When me and Jesus met,he revealed himself as ( in) a whirlwind. I knew I had met God. The first words he spoke to me were" you are not your own,you have been bought with a price" . His anointing fell on he so strong I almost could not take it. I became a blubbering hunk of jelly.

And that was before I received the baptism in the Holy Ghost.

" fell on me" not "he" lol

 

[Namiette]

Cansalvation come through good works without faith in God?

No. The only way to salvation is Jesus Christ alone. We are not able to reach it by our own deeds, this is a reason, why Jesus came to this world to save us, otherwise His sacrifice would be needless.
As the Bible says, everyone sinned. Those who believe in Jesus, and who have accepted Him and His sacrifice, are covered and purified by His blood and are saved. Their debt was paid in full on the cross, by the blood of Jesus.

Those who didn't accept Him must pay their debt by themselves. And the Bible says clearly that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). No matter how many "good deeds" they've done, everyone sinned and their deeds are not powerful enough to save them.

This is my point of view.