Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

While I understand and agree with what you are saying.

I am just not sure of what is the right application of this is in our present day culture with so many camps, schools of thought, doctrinal positions, each with some portion of truth and false teaching, along with all the complexities of mass media

But thank you for getting me to reflect on it a bit more.

The alternative I hear from person's is that we return to being like the early church.

Wait. What?

We are already like the early church; full of divisions, heresies, false teachers, false brethren &c.

This is why Paul was onto the false teachers, exposing them. And Jesus. And Peter. And John. And James. And Jude. And etc.

So, some of us will carry on with that, to the chagrin of many, to the disdain and displeasure of many, just like in the early church era.

But, like Paul stated, if he were to please men he could not be Christ's servant, and that in the context of exposing false teachers and condemning their teachings (Galatians 1:8-10).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

he has a lot of truth, but his attitude prevents that truth from shining through

If I have all knowledge but do not have love, I have nothing.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't see in scripture any difference between a pastor ( who is a shepherd) and elder or an overseer ( bishop ) - it is just different terms speaking of the same person.

I also don't see in the local assembly where one person has the "control" over the assembly. There is always a plurality of eldersonce a church is established in an area.

( Paul did appoint certain ones to set up the local church and talked to them about what to do such as Timothy and Titus ) but that's most likely for another thread.

1 Peter 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] shepherd ( greek verb for the word for pastor in Eph. 4:11 ) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight ( Greek verb for bishop as in Phil. 1:1 ) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

Here it is again with Paul speaking to the elders in Ephesus.

Acts 20:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]
From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church.

Acts 20:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, ( Greek word for bishop used ) to shepherd ( Greek word for pastor used as a verb ) the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.


Philippians 1:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesuswho are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

 

[stillness]

Just had some insight to clear up misunderstanding of Jesus having finished the work and Paul addressing a church that had to learn all over again, "In need of milk and not ready for meat." "My meat is to do the will of the Father and finish His work." For us this means coming to the end of ourselves, in exchanging our will for His will, then it's no longer our work, It's the Holy Spirit that carries us in the will of God to the resurrection: the will that Jesus left as our inheritance. Paul saying "Not ready for meat," is still cough up with our own lives. Jesus finished the work of our deliverance and left it up to us to work out our renewal with God in working deliverance from ourselves.

Also just found out that there are 2 different translations of John 9:4
"We must do the work of Him who sent Me," and
"I must do the work of Him who sent Me,"
Both are correct as "We" is "No longer I that lives but Christ." our spirit joined with the Holy Spirit becomes a new creature. Jesus including His disciples in the work, from the place of His Resurrection. "Go in all the world teaching all nations,"...
There is no work on our part to be saved from sin, we come to a place of saving Grace, God's influence: To grow up in Christ and work with Him in the work of Salvation for others. This is where many are called but few are chosen: referred in revelation as the army that will rule with Him over the nations of the saved. Those who are still children could be tempted of being jealous, even to persecute those that are born and carried of the Holy Spirit. But this needs to happen so that those that are approved will be manifest 1Corintians 11:19. We are approved to Go on to perfection, when we no longer fall into pride of achievement, thinking we are better than other. "God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble," "Only by pride comes contention."
The words of Jesus will not pass away for ever, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If there are Apostles in heaven then there are still on earth those sent with a mission, if there are disciples in heaven there are on earth those who follow Him in the fellowship of His sufferings: exchanging our will for His will is the work of the cross in His disciple. His Word is our daily bread. "As we walk in the light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another (forgiving one another) and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin." As for our deliverance from evil, the Holy Spirit has a canon parked on a dirt road, if you need it, to blast anything that's not of God from our lives. lol This power comes to us when we are of one accord, this second outpouring of the Holy Spirit Acts 4:24 was for power to stand against opposition of persecution.

 

[Grace777x70]

I am off to play pickleball for a few hours.

Let's be respectful to each other and be kind-hearted and play nice with each other. We are going to live together for eternity as children of our loving Father and with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi,
What does "non-OSAS" mean?

I find it hard to imagine that people who believe, could suddenly one day not or rather stop believing?
Perhaps they still believe but have strayed off their path with God and no longer make their relationship with Him the centre of their lives. Either way belief is belief, and God never takes things away from us...

#Cee, would you agree that there are a few people who have not yet received the gift of the spirit? I ask because I myself used to struggle with confidence that I have the Spirit. It took me a long time to realize I did have it and to feel confident with it... ?

Me too especially since Jesus is the beginner and finisher of our faith and he states clearly that he will finish that good work he began in us.......for one to do what the losers of salvation and workers for imply two things must take place....

a. The God of heaven must fail in his work and not keep his promises which makes him weak and false

b. Men must work to keep that which is unkeepable which also is false

 

[dcontroversal]

Everyone has heard you; you're a broken record.

So, instead of listening to you, we're hearing Jesus instead.

Not you.

Not your errant gospel.

Amen to that.....eternal and everlasting as applied unto the life given by Jesus dia faith and grace are excactly that....eternal and everlasting!! He will finish what he started!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

we do...do acts...I know it sounded funny but I kinda liked it anyway.

Just like the book name Acts.

It WAS kind of funny that you said do do. But then I have a pretty juvenile sense of humor.

 

[dcontroversal]

Then gen your not save, your pseudo saved
you do not have eternal life, you havconditional life
your not born again, your somewhere inbetweem death and true life
and your promise is not a promise based on Gods faithfulness but on yours, i.e., you have to save yourself.

Hence a vanilla twist works based false gospel with no power to save and double cursed.........regardless of how they twist the truth!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

you do know you sound exactly like grace7?

exactly

like

him

Brothers and sisters often act like each other and look like each other.

 

[dcontroversal]

I like that word 'albeit'. What's it mean?

even though

 

[dcontroversal]

If anyone should have lost their salvation it was David. He cheated on his close friend, got his wife pregnant. Instead of standing up and being a man about it, he tried to...

==get Uriah to lay with his wife so the pregnancy would be covered up. No DNA testing in those days
==got him drunk and Uriah still refused to lay with Bathsheba and slept on the street
==had him murdered. He was just as guilty as if he had stabbed him to death.

God sends Nathan who confronts David. David admits he's sinned and repents. Nathan said God has taken that sin from him.

Blessed is the man to whom God does not impute sin.[Romans 4:8]

The reason why we can't lose our salvation is because ALL our sins, past, present and future are under the blood.

It doesn't give us a license to sin, however.

Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid![Romans 6:1]

And note that under the law David should have died, but was spared, forgiven, restored and the innocent son of David paid the price (a picture of Jesus)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

In this I do agree seven. I too believe it matters very much what we believe. Is why I keep posting here.

Sof, G7 said people are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but this does not make it true or untrue simply because they choose to believe it. He wasn't claiming that was a bible verse, so it was bizarre for anyone to demand a verse....and it should be apparent by now that he thinks what we believe is important...

 

[PHart]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is commonly interpreted to be talking about the person who knows about salvation, but has not actually gotten saved. But it plainly talks about the impossibility of being renewed to repentance AGAIN. Once you repent and become a partaker of the Holy Spirit and you then fall away it is impossible for you to come back to repentance. God does not allow it because it puts Christ to open shame. God is not mocked. He doesn't let people play games with the blood. He does not allow it to be trampled.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Note how barren fields are burned in the end, not saved as some Christians insist their barren field will be. (A barren field is nothing more than James' 'faith without works' in James 2--the faith that can not save, he says.) They think they will be saved because they reason that salvation happens first, at the beginning of believing, which it surely does, and so nothing can have any affect on what has already transpired.

The problem is they do not know the whole counsel of scripture that warns us that we have to continue to be believing to continue to be saved, and that if you remain a barren field right up to the Day of Judgment you will be showing yourself to either 1) never truly believed to begin with and so you never received the Holy Spirit to create holy works in you, or 2) you stopped believing somewhere along the line and no longer have the Holy Spirit inside of you to create holy works in you. Either way, if you get to the Judgment as a barren, fruitless field, you will be burned, not saved.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Yes, 'things that accompany salvation'. And he says what it is that accompanies salvation. Yet there are so many people who insist there is nothing that must accompany salvation. The author just got through saying if you don't have anything accompanying your salvation you will be burned, not saved.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Notice what inherits the promises: faith and patience (the perseverance of faith). Yet so many Christians are sure you do not have to keep patiently believing to the end to inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

The author is beginning a long treatise about the supremacy of Christ's ministry over and above the ministry of the earthly Levites. See, the ministry of the priest is only as effective as the ability of the priest himself. We see in the old covenant that if the priest failed in his duties, or ceased to live to continue to perform his duties, the worshiper whom he represents could not have the relationship with the Father that the priest was working to get for them.

But since Christ has none of these limitations we can approach the Father in full assurance of faith knowing that our faith is well placed in Christ and he will never let us down, he will never fail in his duties, he will never lose those who God gives to him to minister on behalf of. His ministry is perfect and indestructible.

The author wraps up these chapters of how perfect and incorruptible Christ's ministry with that very exhortation: Christ can never fail. He will represent you perfectly and secure for you the relationship with the Father you need to be saved.

"19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;" (Hebrews 10:19-23 NASB)​

The problem is, the church has viewed the perfection and all sufficiency of Christ's ministry to mean they are saved no matter what. It's gotten to the point now in the church that even believing is not necessary to 'do' after you first receive Christ. But if you read above, what Christ's perfect ministry means is it is worthy of your faith. Your faith is well placed and not in vain when it is in Christ because "He who promised is faithful" (vs. 23 above), so keep believing!

Can you see these two distinct ways of interpreting the meaning and application of Christ's perfect ministry? One way says, "nothing matters once you are saved because Christ's ministry is perfect and does it all." The other (correct) way says, "Christ's ministry is perfect and can do exactly what it must do for me, therefore I will, and must continue to rely on it".

 

[preacher4truth]

While I understand and agree with what you are saying.

I am just not sure of what is the right application of this is in our present day culture with so many camps, schools of thought, doctrinal positions, each with some portion of truth and false teaching, along with all the complexities of mass media

But thank you for getting me to reflect on it a bit more.

Culture doesn't dictate how we are to stand on the Word, on truth, against error. At least not among those who will stand on truth no matter what is going on.

Nor do differing camps dictate this.

The issue is the Gospel. There are many minor issues, and that is not what we are talking about here. When the Gospel is compromised by hyper grace, Free Grace Theology, the Person of Christ and Deity is denied, a works gospel is preached, eternal security attacked, sects get labeled as the church (i.e. Mormons, SDA, the RCC, "Metropolitan" churches) the Gospel is truncated &c those are the issues in which we make a stand.

God has already given His mandate and that doesn't get mitigated because of what we see in the world or among camps.

And He did this once. Thus Jude 1:3, we are to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, and the following context speaks against the many false teachers there and yet to come.

The real issue is people don't want to take a stand because they've befriended a person, like a person who is teaching blatant error and supports a heterodox or heretical gospel. They are not to be coddled but reproved, sometimes gently, other times sharply - hence Titus 1:13. Take a stance and the person will see their true colors - wolves are always trying to appear as sheep, so nice, docile, friendly - expose their false teachings and you'll discover another creature underneath.

Read again Paul's command to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:1-5 &c. This is written to a pastor to preach to the church, and those who are false within it against compromising the gospel for myths, fables, and false teachers, who are tired of enduring sound doctrine, so they compromise little by little into an apostate church. They are to be rebuked and reproved. That directive has never been changed.

Paul, in 2 Timothy 4 also said he fought the good fight, he kept the faith. That is in context of what he just told Timothy. Thus the meaning is clear: there is to be no compromise on the Gospel, even in the midst of professing believers in the church who have gone off into differing camps. We would then be foolish to suspend evangelizing even those within our midst!

I won't allow the world to press me into its mold; Romans 12:2 nor dictate to me the relevancy, necessity, application, or challenge the eternal sufficiency of truth from God's Word. The numbers of false doctrines, false teachers don't change this either; there have always been many false teachers on this planet since the fall of man. This has never been determinative as to whether we expose error or not.

We're not called to be pragmatic, or doubt the relevancy of the Word because of any of these things; 2 Timothy 3:16. Truth doesn't change in light of culture, we don't hid our light under a bushel, and many times that light offends the darkness.

We need believers to take a stand, not cringe at what they see going on and wonder what should be done, or whether we should continue to combat error, which is, if you think about it, to preach the Gospel of Christ.

 

[PHart]

...for one to do what the losers of salvation...imply two things must take place....

a. The God of heaven must fail in his work and not keep his promises which makes him weak and false

You're ignoring, or forgetting, or can't see that the Bible plainly tells us what the condition for being presently saved is, and it's your continued believing. Salvation has a condition. It's just that the condition is not works. It's believing. Believing is never equated with the works of the law that can not save/justify. Faith is always clearly contrasted with works of the law to save/ justify. Believing is the condition for salvation. And since the faith to believe is a gracious gift of God given to you so you can then believe and be saved that believing does not equate to a meritorious work for which you earn salvation. That's Romans 101. How did the church lose this fundamental truth?

b. Men must work to keep that which is unkeepable which also is false

That's not the argument at all. We do not work to keep the unkeepable. We receive and hold fast to the faith and that is what keeps that which is otherwise unkeepable. That's hardly a work of the law in the damnable works gospel.

Persevering faith is never listed among the things you 'do' to earn salvation. Yet so many Christians now think that if they make continued believing a necessity to be saved on the Day of Judgment they are trying to earn their own salvation. How absurd! Where is this scripture that says my believing after I first start it, if I think I have to keep doing it to be saved, is a work of the damnable works gospel? Where is it, folks? Surely it must be in the Bible for you to be defending that!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am off to play pickleball for a few hours.

Let's be respectful to each other and be kind-hearted and play nice with each other. We are going to live together for eternity as children of our loving Father and with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Huh...? Is that a Canadian game? I've never heard of it. Do you use a jar of pickles in the game...?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

This is commonly interpreted to be talking about the person who knows about salvation, but has not actually gotten saved. But it plainly talks about the impossibility of being renewed to repentance AGAIN. Once you repent and become a partaker of the Holy Spirit and you then fall away it is impossible for you to come back to repentance. God does not allow it because it puts Christ to open shame. God is not mocked. He doesn't let people play games with the blood. He does not allow it to be trampled.



Note how barren fields are burned in the end, not saved as some Christians insist their barren field will be. (A barren field is nothing more than James' 'faith without works' in James 2--the faith that can not save, he says.) They think they will be saved because they reason that salvation happens first, at the beginning of believing, which it surely does, and so nothing can have any affect on what has already transpired.

The problem is they do not know the whole counsel of scripture that warns us that we have to continue to be believing to continue to be saved, and that if you remain a barren field right up to the Day of Judgment you will be showing yourself to either 1) never truly believed to begin with and so you never received the Holy Spirit to create holy works in you, or 2) you stopped believing somewhere along the line and no longer have the Holy Spirit inside of you to create holy works in you. Either way, if you get to the Judgment as a barren, fruitless field, you will be burned, not saved.



Yes, 'things that accompany salvation'. And he says what it is that accompanies salvation. Yet there are so many people who insist there is nothing that must accompany salvation. The author just got through saying if you don't have anything accompanying your salvation you will be burned, not saved.



Notice what inherits the promises: faith and patience (the perseverance of faith). Yet so many Christians are sure you do not have to keep patiently believing to the end to inherit the promises.



The author is beginning a long treatise about the supremacy of Christ's ministry over and above the ministry of the earthly Levites. See, the ministry of the priest is only as effective as the ability of the priest himself. We see in the old covenant that if the priest failed in his duties, or ceased to live to continue to perform his duties, the worshiper whom he represents could not have the relationship with the Father that the priest was working to get for them.

But since Christ has none of these limitations we can approach the Father in full assurance of faith knowing that our faith is well placed in Christ and he will never let us down, he will never fail in his duties, he will never lose those who God gives to him to minister on behalf of. His ministry is perfect and indestructible.

The author wraps up these chapters of how perfect and incorruptible Christ's ministry with that very exhortation: Christ can never fail. He will represent you perfectly and secure for you the relationship with the Father you need to be saved.

"19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;" (Hebrews 10:19-23 NASB)​

The problem is, the church has viewed the perfection and all sufficiency of Christ's ministry to mean they are saved no matter what. It's gotten to the point now in the church that even believing is not necessary to 'do' after you first receive Christ. But if you read above, what Christ's perfect ministry means is it is worthy of your faith. Your faith is well placed and not in vain when it is in Christ because "He who promised is faithful" (vs. 23 above), so keep believing!

Can you see these two distinct ways of interpreting the meaning and application of Christ's perfect ministry? One way says, "nothing matters once you are saved because Christ's ministry is perfect and does it all." The other (correct) way says, "Christ's ministry is perfect and can do exactly what it must do for me, therefore I will, and must continue to rely on it".

interesting

i actually DO see how it can be taken two ways....

and how it directly ties to this thread


thank you so much for taking the time to share what you see

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You're ignoring, or forgetting, or can't see that the Bible plainly tells us what the condition for being presently saved is, and it's your continued believing. Salvation has a condition. It's just that the condition is not works. It's believing. Believing is never equated with the works of the law that can not save/justify. Faith is always clearly contrasted with works of the law to save/ justify. Believing is the condition for salvation. And since the faith to believe is a gracious gift of God given to you so you can then believe and be saved that believing does not equate to a meritorious work for which you earn salvation. That's Romans 101. How did the church lose this fundamental truth?




That's not the argument at all. We do not work to keep the unkeepable. We receive and hold fast to the faith and that is what keeps that which is otherwise unkeepable. That's hardly a work of the law in the damnable works gospel.

Persevering faith is never listed among the things you 'do' to earn salvation. Yet so many Christians now think that if they make continued believing a necessity to be saved on the Day of Judgment they are trying to earn their own salvation. How absurd! Where is this scripture that says my believing after I first start it, if I think I have to keep doing it to be saved, is a work of the damnable works gospel? Where is it, folks? Surely it must be in the Bible for you to be defending that!

Maybe this would help...
I know that you believe the faith you were given was a gift and did not come from you but from God - that you were saved by faith, through the kindness of God, and even that faith was not of yourself so no man can boast.
Explain how you think you have been able to keep your faith and grow in faith, despite the world, your own flesh and the devil, seeking to destroy it?

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree with all you have stated.

We do need to contend for the faith and truth is truth no matter what year it is.

Culture doesn't dictate how we are to stand on the Word, on truth, against error. At least not among those who will stand on truth no matter what is going on.

Nor do differing camps dictate this.

The issue is the Gospel. There are many minor issues, and that is not what we are talking about here. When the Gospel is compromised by hyper grace, Free Grace Theology, the Person of Christ and Deity is denied, a works gospel is preached, eternal security attacked, sects get labeled as the church (i.e. Mormons, SDA, the RCC, "Metropolitan" churches) the Gospel is truncated &c those are the issues in which we make a stand.

God has already given His mandate and that doesn't get mitigated because of what we see in the world or among camps.

And He did this once. Thus Jude 1:3, we are to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, and the following context speaks against the many false teachers there and yet to come.

The real issue is people don't want to take a stand because they've befriended a person, like a person who is teaching blatant error and supports a heterodox or heretical gospel. They are not to be coddled but reproved, sometimes gently, other times sharply - hence Titus 1:13. Take a stance and the person will see their true colors - wolves are always trying to appear as sheep, so nice, docile, friendly - expose their false teachings and you'll discover another creature underneath.

Read again Paul's command to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:1-5 &c. This is written to a pastor to preach to the church, and those who are false within it against compromising the gospel for myths, fables, and false teachers, who are tired of enduring sound doctrine, so they compromise little by little into an apostate church. They are to be rebuked and reproved. That directive has never been changed.

Paul, in 2 Timothy 4 also said he fought the good fight, he kept the faith. That is in context of what he just told Timothy. Thus the meaning is clear: there is to be no compromise on the Gospel, even in the midst of professing believers in the church who have gone off into differing camps. We would then be foolish to suspend evangelizing even those within our midst!

I won't allow the world to press me into its mold; Romans 12:2 nor dictate to me the relevancy, necessity, application, or challenge the eternal sufficiency of truth from God's Word. The numbers of false doctrines, false teachers don't change this either; there have always been many false teachers on this planet since the fall of man. This has never been determinative as to whether we expose error or not.

We're not called to be pragmatic, or doubt the relevancy of the Word because of any of these things; 2 Timothy 3:16. Truth doesn't change in light of culture, we don't hid our light under a bushel, and many times that light offends the darkness.

We need believers to take a stand, not cringe at what they see going on and wonder what should be done, or whether we should continue to combat error, which is, if you think about it, to preach the Gospel of Christ.