Not By Works

[PeterJens]

If you feel salvation can be lost you will see it that way.

I would rather take John at his word. This gnostic crap is meaningless. I never even heard of that until I came into CC. I think it is an excuse to try to twist Johansson words, to make him say things he never said.

John spoke of people who were a part of the church, who turned around and became against christ, Nothing more nothing less. That is not Gnosticism, We see this in the chu5ch today, and no one4 I know teaches Gnosticism,

Oh someone has got yourselves riled up. It is funny how indignation shows itself most clearly when an
argument hits home. The Gnostics were all about having arrived with no obligations or consequences.

And Google 100's of peoples analysis of this underworld faith, and they all draw similar conclusions.
Jesus always put loving behaviour first, this is the badge of the children of God.

This only happens when people listen, open their hearts and obey. It is a wonder why anyone who
follows Jesus would oppose this but they do. God bless, we have victory in Christ, changed lives.

 

[PHart]

I know many will argue this, but a careful analogy of the parables set the Gentiles forth as the guests at the wedding......by the verbiage that is.......

Perhaps the guests are simply us run of the mill believers while the groomsmen are those in the ministry preparing the wedding and sending out the invites.

 

[PeterJens]

again, for those interested in the conversation.

My argument was that a true child of God who became lazy is better off than a non child of God who is busy doing works in a church thinking they are saved, but not saved.

It has nothing to do with licentious believers, who have never been saved, or people who claim to have faith but have no work, because they are hearers only not doers.

it was in response to people saying OSAS breads easy believism, and can cause a person to live in sin, because there is nothing stoping him..

i.e., replacing eternal security with works, based in a reason that it can cause people to be lazy or live in sin is worse than teaching people a works based gospel. Which is no gospel at all.

Licentious people are doomed, Jude says their condemnation was set in stone. Teaching against eternal security to fight licentiousness is not going to help

a laze BELIEVER is still better off than a BUSY non believer. Who has NEVER KNOWN GOD.

This is so wrong. We do not hold salvation and the gate, God does. We can but encourage people to act and
listen God will do the rest.

All I know is preach and live spiritual reality and people will find it.

 

[PeterJens]

Those who believe one can lose salvation have no understanding or comprehension of what the works of wood, hay and stubble are and or how they apply unto the saved....nor do they understand that a baby is a baby and has no clue what to do, how to eat, walk, talk, crap in the toilet, work, turn the T.V. on etc.....works and fruit are a process of growth and maturity and in every garden, field, tree the produce may be from1 piece to a bumper crop.....they fail to understand that many saved will be saved so as by fire without much to show in their lives that accompany salvation.

????? For someone who claims to not dictate how others are this is true hypocrisy.

My experience of people who talk like this is too much guilt about inactivity and love must be excused away
rather than just getting real.

 

[PHart]

Jesus always put loving behaviour first, this is the badge of the children of God.

This only happens when people listen, open their hearts and obey. It is a wonder why anyone who
follows Jesus would oppose this but they do.

I've wondered this same thing. Why so much vitriol from supposedly Christ loving, born again people who love him and anxiously want to serve him because, as even they themselves say, that is what will surely happen in people who genuinely believe???

 

[PeterJens]

When you get salvation right.....then come tell me what I believe and or how to apply it.......

Talk about a pompous dismissive answer. Love is everything and if you cannot feel and agree this,
you are just a religious zealot. I always admire grunts, dedication to a cause, using any means, except
this is not how the Kingdom works. Refer to the beatitudes, and Paul, Peter and John.

My heartfelt reality, is if these bread and butter concepts cut no ice or warm the soul, you are blocking
the gate and not working for the Father of heaven.

I currently have little time, but you guys waste too much time doing nothing and standing still.

 

[Grace777x70]

To go back to the OP for any new readers of the thread. I will post this again.

We "get to do good works and we are participating in the family business of telling and showing others of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them" because His life is in us now - but they are not for salvation nor for maintaining being saved.

That's an anti-Christ belief system that is simply a works-based self-righteousness belief system that denies the very work of Christ.

An example of "good works" are when we encourage people to actually believe what Jesus has said and what He has already done. It is a good work to encourage Christians to believe that He alone has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

Right believing in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and rose to newness of life - will bring right thinking ( repentance ) which will manifest in His life being seen in our lives outwardly as His fruit is borne on us the branches.

This is what produces real godliness based on Christ alone by grace through faith.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6-8

This is all done by grace through faith alone in Christ and what He has already done on the cross and resurrection.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

It is a "good work" to encourage people to trust that He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it. (Phil. 1:6)

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are new creations in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that Christ alone is our wisdom, our righteousness and our sanctification and our redemption. ( 1 Cor. 1:30 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians to believe that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection and no amount of good works can save us nor "keep us saved". Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of believers. ( Eph. 2:8-19 & 1 Tim. 4:10 )

It is a "good work" to encourage Christians that we will walk in the good works that God has already prepare for us to walk in as His life becomes manifested in and through us to reveal the love and grace of our loving Father and our Lord has for others. ( Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13 )

It is a "good work" for us to encourage Christians that we are safe in the hands of the Lord and we who truly believe have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He will be in us forever - just like Jesus said. ( Eph. 1:13, 4:20 & John 14:16 )

It is also a "good work" to remind Christians that there is a warning for not relying on the life of Christ in us for life and living while on this earth.

All the works of the flesh will bring destruction in this life of some sort - whether living the homosexual lifestyle or the exhibiting of malice, outbursts of anger, deceitfulness or the slandering of others in the body of Christ.

Fail to rely on the grace of God that is only in Christ's finished work and trying to do things in our own flesh will not get us to experience the life of Christ that is in our inner man of the heart where Christ dwells and where we are in the kingdom of God.

The warning scriptures are needed and to be heeded - once the proper foundation of Christ and His finished work are firmly established in the hearts and minds of us Christians. From there - then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.

If we want to experience our inheritance that is ours in Christ while we are in this earth - it's imperative that we don't live by the flesh.

But the firm foundation is Christ Himself and you can no more lose the redemption that is in Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are beloved children of our loving Father and He will not throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire because they don't do enough "good works".

Where there is "security" - there are the nutrients for "maturity". Let's believe what Christ has said and what He has already done for us and grow in the grace and knowledge of Him.

 

[PeterJens]

I've wondered this same thing. Why so much vitriol from supposedly Christ loving, born again people who love him and anxiously want to serve him because, as even they themselves say, that is what will surely happen in people who genuinely believe???

A closed heart which is desperate to justify itself will do this.
It takes years to see someone clearly, but here people can take whatever they want.

Clearly their hearts do not beat like ours. A good friend of mine sold out and went down this road,
so it is not hard to do, but bless you brother for your diligence and forgiveness, God bless.

 

[preacher4truth]

A closed heart which is desperate to justify itself will do this.
It takes years to see someone clearly, but here people can take whatever they want.

Clearly their hearts do not beat like ours.

Luke 18:9,11,12 in real time.

 

[PeterJens]

By the way, some commentators would say they must share at length their ideas, even when they
believe it is all Gods work, because He really does need their help. Ironic when their whole position
is God alone does it all, and it is an insult to help Him.

So by their logic, they are insulting God, defending Him so vehemently. But getting real, they are
just propagandists, and lie and change ideas on a whim, lol so you should expect nothing less.

 

[UnderGrace]

What I cannot understand is how and why "they" do not see it.

I see that God is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

The entry point (gate) to eternal life is equal/the same for every human being that has ever lived or ever will live, that is why none of us can boast.

I did the exact same thing you did to receive the gift of eternal life.

When we were saved it was because we believed in Jesus and His work on the cross, He is the object of our faith.

None of us can boast, we all go through the same narrow gate.

Soon as one adds, works of the law, good works, ongoing belief, than there is an aspect of measurement

(the unscriptural twist ) added in....one of intensity and duration rather than the singular event

that Jesus teaches Nicodemus on "being born again"


The plan of eternal salvation is perfect....... that to argue against it makes no sense.

Amen...they say they don't push a working for dogma and then they turn around and push a working for dogma......

 

[PeterJens]

Luke 18:9,11,12 in real time.

Again ironic.If you feel loving God is a self righteous act worthy of being rebuked, you are so confused
it is not a joke........................:-(

 

[UnderGrace]

I really think you have must have misunderstood everything those what believe, salvation is secure and not by works, have written to make such a comment.

I've wondered this same thing. Why so much vitriol from supposedly Christ loving, born again people who love him and anxiously want to serve him because, as even they themselves say, that is what will surely happen in people who genuinely believe???

 

[preacher4truth]

Again ironic.If you feel loving God is a self righteous act worthy of being rebuked, you are so confused
it is not a joke........................:-(

I implied nothing of the sort.

Try to stick to the facts for once, not your fabricated nonsense.

I merely pointed out how you and others feel yourselves righteous, point to yourselves as such, and show contempt for others. Just like the aforementioned of whom Christ spake in the given passage.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've wondered this same thing. Why so much vitriol from supposedly Christ loving, born again people who love him and anxiously want to serve him because, as even they themselves say, that is what will surely happen in people who genuinely believe???

Interesting, "from supposedly Christ loving, born again people" implying rather, and intentionally, that they (rather we) are lost.

Yes, you think we are lost. Not yourself though.

Not surprised, this has always been the sense taken from your posts; thinking yourself righteous while showing contempt for others.

 

[stonesoffire]

This misguided thinking has overtaken the church. Your theology, which is very popular in the church, is actually the false theology. Read the passage:

"16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)
​

Only the person who obeys God's command to love others, being like Him in this life has no reason to fear the coming Judgment. But the church thinks they don't have to fear the coming Judgment at all, even if they live disobedient, enslaved lives, as if slaves are in line for the inheritance too.

I want to ask how you missed this, but I know you don't know this because the church at large does not teach this. And even when people do read the Bible for themselves they read it according to the way they've been taught, which makes them gloss right over and not 'see' any scripture that suggests what you do actually means something on the Day of Judgment.

As we can see by an honest, unbiased read of the passage, Solomon and John are in perfect agreement about keeping God's commands in view of the coming Judgment. We're not released from the commandments of God in this New Covenant so that we can live in disobedience and everything will still be okay on the Day of Judgment. That's turning the grace of God into a license to sin. The Bible is clear that grace was given to us to be released from sin, not live in it with impunity. But so many in the church think grace was given so you can live less than godly lives and everything will be just fine between you and God because as they say, "salvation is soooo not of works". John says it is the obedient person who's faith is completed (perfected) in actual deeds of love who can have confidence in the day of Judgment. The disobedient Christian has no such confidence. He's kidding himself if he thinks he does.

Of course, John is not saying works of obedience earn you salvation. He's once again confirming the truth that our works are going to be examined at the Judgment and will be used to either condemn us as not knowing Christ in salvation, or aquiting us as one who does know Christ in salvation (Matthew 25). And we know what evidence Christ will be looking for. The Bible is plain about that. We can have peace about that Day because we can see that we do have that evidence in our lives (read the passage above). It is the person who does not have that evidence in his life who should be fearing the Day of Judgment. And yet there are so many in the church boasting of this gospel that makes it so you can live in the gutter and have no fear of the Day of Judgment. That's not what the Bible says, folks. Stop listening to the lies of the church.

True understanding of grace causes one to love God as the commandment states. We will...and then love for our brothers, sisters, and compassionate love for the world comes from our being. Heart. As ourself. To love self is to know that we are one with the head, and the members. This is our identity. In Christ. As He is in the world, so are we.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'd much rather accompany with those who endure the throes experienced by the elect, who at times are convinced of their eternal state, only to be later cast purposefully into a sea of doubt, than with those who are so convinced they are saved due to their efforts to believe, work, and sustain, while at the same time show disdain for all others and consider them lost.

The struggle of the elect is often times due to the fact their salvation and security thereof depends upon nothing in them, nor of their efforts, but solely upon Christ himself.

"Doubts of course frequently invade the believer's certainty of salvation, so that he has to ask himself whether he really can take comfort in the grace of God and regard himself as elect. But these doubts are never such that the comfort of faith is utterly overcome. On the contrary in every elect person they lead conclusively to the certainty of his peace with God." - Reformed Dogmatics

 

[stonesoffire]

Perhaps the guests are simply us run of the mill believers while the groomsmen are those in the ministry preparing the wedding and sending out the invites.

Groomsmen?

 

[TruthTalk]

What I cannot understand is how and why "they" do not see it.

I see that God is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

The entry point (gate) to eternal life is equal/the same for every human being that has ever lived or ever will live, that is why none of us can boast.

The plan of eternal salvation is perfect....... that to argue against it makes no sense.

Hi UnderGrace, they don't see it because they continue the dance; my wonderful works plusGod's Grace; a little bit of me, a little bit of God, a little me, a little of God's Grace. Our words are a window into what motivates our actions; most of the Grace plus works people here are driven by pride. There was a lot of this works salvation going on in the late '60s and 70s it was called legalism.

 

[stonesoffire]

I've wondered this same thing. Why so much vitriol from supposedly Christ loving, born again people who love him and anxiously want to serve him because, as even they themselves say, that is what will surely happen in people who genuinely believe???

Sons of vipers comes to mind...