Not By Works

[PHart]

you do not just lose that faith, Perople who walk away and say that they no longer believe Jesus is the christ were never saved to begin with, Again 1 John is not just for Gnostics, it is for all people who were a walking part of any church, and left, having repented of their beliefs in christ, and have become deniers of christ.

John said they were never of us, never saved, Nebver given eternally life. Never anyth9ing but people who walked with a body of believers and aced like they were saved, but never took that step of faith.

because if they had, as john said, they NEVER WOULDF HAVE LEFT.

Seriously, 'never' is not in the passage: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1jo/2/1/t_conc_1161019

The person who leaves the faith is obviously showing they didn't believe when they left. It's not right to add to the passage and say they 'never' believed and that's why they left. The passage doesn't say that. It only says their leaving showed they did not believe. Nothing is said about if they ever believed, or never believed. Obviously, if they did believe they would not leave the faith. You can't believe and leave the faith at the same time, lol.

 

[notuptome]

She lost her faith even before she was baptized...

Like many today who suppose they can have one foot in heaven and one foot in hell.

Salvation is all or nothing. You cannot hold on to the old and grasp the new.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PHart]

Amen, they stop believing because they had no saving faith to begin with.

People who have real faith do not lose it, Because God is faithful, Saying one can lose faith is the same as saying God is not faithful. And thus we can lose trust in him because he fails us.

It's because God is faithful that we should continue to believe/trust in the gospel message:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

His faithfulness is the basis upon which we do our believing and on which our confidence is based. But the church reads his faithfulness as, "no matter what, I'm irreversibly saved". The author says that since the ministry of Jesus is so great and he is so faithful we should "hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering", but you and others are saying that to hold fast in faith to the gospel is teaching a man centered works gospel.

 

[PHart]

Like many today who suppose they can have one foot in heaven and one foot in hell.

Salvation is all or nothing. You cannot hold on to the old and grasp the new.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

So you agree we have the responsibility to hold onto the new by faith, correct?
Everybody knows that we don't have to hold onto the old. That's not even in debate.

 

[preacher4truth]

Seriously, 'never' is not in the passage: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1jo/2/1/t_conc_1161019

You're so far off track it's remarkable what you miss in your endeavor to propagate your man-centric false gospel.

The term οὐ ou in 1 John 2:19 is an absolute negative. This shows these were never of us, i.e. "it is absolutely negative that they were ever of us." Thus they were never truly converted.

Just for those paying attention: No one loses salvation, and no one maintains it. Persons such as above go out of their way to attempt to disprove plain teachings of texts. The word never does not need to be their, but it is very strongly implied by the text.

Bottom line: If you are in Christ, you will never be out of Christ. There are texts which describe what a believer does, and others that prescribe to the lost how to be saved. Conflation of these differing texts is how people arrive at their false man centered gospel that is always pointing at their efforts, and rarely to Christ.

One last thing and think it through brothers and sisters who hold to the true Gospel: the Holy Spirit always exalts Christ, not man, He is always glorifying Christ; John 16:14 and what He has accomplished, not man.

When you see a gospel shared which is not focusing on that, on glorifying Christ, well, enough said. Look at the Scripture and think about it, the true Gospel glorifies Christ, glories in Christ, not in man, nor does it take the focus off of Christ and place it on man.

I think you all are smart enough to figure out where that other type of gospel that fails here is not coming from.

 

[gb9]

as I have said before, a lot of the works-based mindset is based on the model that in western culture , most of us do our jobs, then we get our pay. most of us are not given our pay up front. so we by faith that we will be paid, do the work that is required , then we get the pay.

this equates to a saved by faith, through good works, then if you have enough faith, do enough good works, and then you get grace.

this makes sense. it is very believable. but it is NOT BIBLICAL. by grace, through faith, for good works. that is Biblical.

 

[TruthTalk]

You're so far off track it's remarkable what you miss in your endeavor to propagate your man-centric false gospel.

The term οὐ ou in 1 John 2:19 is an absolute negative. This shows these were never of us, i.e. "it is absolutely negative that they were ever of us." Thus they were never truly converted.

Just for those paying attention: No one loses salvation, and no one maintains it. Persons such as above go out of their way to attempt to disprove plain teachings of texts. The word never does not need to be their, but it is very strongly implied by the text.

Bottom line: If you are in Christ, you will never be out of Christ. There are texts which describe what a believer does, and others that prescribe to the lost how to be saved. Conflation of these differing texts is how people arrive at their false man centered gospel that is always pointing at their efforts, and rarely to Christ.

One last thing and think it through brothers and sisters who hold to the true Gospel:the Holy Spirit always exalts Christ, not man, He is always glorifying Christ; John 16:14 and what He has accomplished, not man.

When you see a gospel shared which is not focusing on that, on glorifying Christ, well, enough said. Look at the Scripture and think about it, the true Gospel glorifies Christ, glories in Christ, not in man, nor does it take the focus off of Christ and place it on man.

I think you all are smart enough to figure out where that other type of gospel that fails here is not coming from.

What Sunday School did these folks attend, what Preaching and Teaching are they listening to. Sometimes I wonder if we are reading the same bible. The Church today is a microcosm of our Christian diversity and beliefs, my Church included. Go back and get a good fundamental understanding of what the bible teaches before you start putting forth your own ideas of what you think the bible should say; the gospel according to you, a false gospel. The Gospel according to what the Holy Spirit Teaches us from scripture, True Gospel.

Preach the Truth Preacher.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seriously, 'never' is not in the passage: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1jo/2/1/t_conc_1161019

The person who leaves the faith is obviously showing they didn't believe when they left. It's not right to add to the passage and say they 'never' believed and that's why they left. The passage doesn't say that. It only says their leaving showed they did not believe. Nothing is said about if they ever believed, or never believed. Obviously, if they did believe they would not leave the faith. You can't believe and leave the faith at the same time, lol.

We must be reading different bibles. I think john makes it clear.

1. He said they were were not of us, the verb is in the imperfect tense, it means they were in a continuous state of not being of us (they never were)
2. He said, if they were of us they would have continued with us, continued is pluperfect tense, which means it would have been a completed action which had been completed at a point of time in the past, i.e., an action that would continue forever
3. but they left so it can be made manifest that NONE OF THEM were of us, in other words, they went away to PROVE that ALL people who HAVE LEFT were (actually a present tense verb) part of us.

all people, not some people, who leave a body, who have lost faith and deny Christ were in a continuous state of not being of us, and they left so it could be known, they are not of us, and never have been.

 

[BillG]

as I have said before, a lot of the works-based mindset is based on the model that in western culture , most of us do our jobs, then we get our pay. most of us are not given our pay up front. so we by faith that we will be paid, do the work that is required , then we get the pay.

this equates to a saved by faith, through good works, then if you have enough faith, do enough good works, and then you get grace.

this makes sense. it is very believable. but it is NOT BIBLICAL. by grace, through faith, for good works. that is Biblical.

Well said gb9

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's because God is faithful that we should continue to believe/trust in the gospel message:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

His faithfulness is the basis upon which we do our believing and on which our confidence is based. But the church reads his faithfulness as, "no matter what, I'm irreversibly saved". The author says that since the ministry of Jesus is so great and he is so faithful we should "hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering", but you and others are saying that to hold fast in faith to the gospel is teaching a man centered works gospel.

We remain steadfast BECAUSE he is faithfull, not because we have some special power.

 

[1ofthem]

Amen, Yes, We do this because we are saved, Not in order to keep salvation though. that seems to be the issue in here. Why do we do it.

Amen, it is the work of God within us that produces fruit because we are saved. We cannot save ourselves by any work or do any work good enough to keep ourselves saved, but through Jesus we are safe secure and can rest assure


[video=youtube;UyzFNsofNco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyzFNsofNco[/video]

 

[PeterJens]

I think excuses are the gospel of some.
Oh I believed, but I was too carnal to help anyone, too hurt to love, too rich to give, too comfortable
to get up and do something that took effort, and they smelt so bad, I mean, who would help them.

Jesus says simply change your heart, cleanse it with His word and His love, know the purity of
God flow through you.

I remember the idea of peoples house being robbed. The shock of their territory being invaded by
another. But is it ever our territory, our things, or are we just custodians of the King.
Do we have rights or are we just servants awaiting opportunities to do our masters bidding?

One member retorted when it was said we are to be of one mind and heart in Christ, that this was
rubbish. Well firstly they did not know scripture, they did not know Jesus well and they did not know
themselves well. It is hard from such a platform to then be arrogant and rebuke others.

But this is what happens when Jesus's words are not taken seriously or their consequences.
We are blessed to share, blessed to make more opportunities for others, to share Gods bounty, and
know His Kingdom come to earth.

There are many here who have spent many years serving the Lord, amen to that, may we all learn from
their experience.

 

[willybob]

"believe"?.....most dont want to comprehend that belief=obedience, so they suppress the truth in unrighteousness...They think its possible to believe without obeying, which in reality equates to the belief of devils. Therefore developing a double-minded gospel; whereas one can hold hands with Satan and still inconspicuously waltz into the kingdom having their filthy rags unnoticed....be blessed

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is a good statement of belief.
Problem is people come to faith and then lose it for whatever reason.
Others have faith but wonder why their hearts are cold, so are they really saved at all.

In a world of strangers, certainty can be a desperate thing to desire to find.

Now those who say once you have faith that is it, they have to explain away how people
can be as close to God as they are, but fail to follow through.

So the escape clause comes in, they were never truly saved.
So here you have it. Believe and you are saved, but if you fall away, you must not have
truly believed. This is attempting to explain what happens against what they believe and
the idea it is all secure like a done deal. If there are no risks or obligations, heck, no guilt or
problems with how you are living now.

It is why I have this strange conversation where such believers where happy to say they
had sinned that day, in this or that area, just like the previous day. Actually sorting it out
was beyond them, because God did not mind. Surely it was not a denial of the cross to
knowingly be in sin, commit sin and then not repent or feel any sorrow about it.

By definition, not feeling sorrow over sin is being a sinner in rebellion. This is not part of
following Christ, resolving situations like this is. There is no compromise over this issue, it
is black and white.

Captain obvious misses the mark again......wow!

 

[dcontroversal]

"believe"?.....most dont want to comprehend that belief=obedience, so they suppress the truth in unrighteousness...They think its possible to believe without obeying, which in reality equates to the belief of devils. Therefore developing a double-minded gospel; whereas one can hold hands with Satan and still inconspicuously waltz into the kingdom having their filthy rags unnoticed....be blessed

No, actually sponge believe = the following....the word obedience is not found in the definition of the word....again your embellishment to push what the bible does not push........and the thread is about biblical salvation not service which you cannot help but conflate....because deep down you really only believe in self salvation......

pisteuó: to believe, entrust​

Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

 

[preacher4truth]

"believe"?.....most dont want to comprehend that belief=obedience, so they suppress the truth in unrighteousness...They think its possible to believe without obeying, which in reality equates to the belief of devils. Therefore developing a double-minded gospel; whereas one can hold hands with Satan and still inconspicuously waltz into the kingdom having their filthy rags unnoticed....be blessed

Yes, some are presumptuous in that way, but I haven't witnessed any person on here espousing this antinomianism.

Do you obey, or do you just tell others to obey? Romans 2:3?

 

[dcontroversal]

You're so far off track it's remarkable what you miss in your endeavor to propagate your man-centric false gospel.

The term οὐ ou in 1 John 2:19 is an absolute negative. This shows these were never of us, i.e. "it is absolutely negative that they were ever of us." Thus they were never truly converted.

Just for those paying attention: No one loses salvation, and no one maintains it. Persons such as above go out of their way to attempt to disprove plain teachings of texts. The word never does not need to be their, but it is very strongly implied by the text.

Bottom line: If you are in Christ, you will never be out of Christ. There are texts which describe what a believer does, and others that prescribe to the lost how to be saved. Conflation of these differing texts is how people arrive at their false man centered gospel that is always pointing at their efforts, and rarely to Christ.

One last thing and think it through brothers and sisters who hold to the true Gospel: the Holy Spirit always exalts Christ, not man, He is always glorifying Christ; John 16:14 and what He has accomplished, not man.

When you see a gospel shared which is not focusing on that, on glorifying Christ, well, enough said. Look at the Scripture and think about it, the true Gospel glorifies Christ, glories in Christ, not in man, nor does it take the focus off of Christ and place it on man.

I think you all are smart enough to figure out where that other type of gospel that fails here is not coming from.

The tragic truth.....being off track and missing it by .0001 thousandth of and or 100 light years makes no difference.....both equal lost for eternity.....

The door is narrow and the majority teaches a works based way....straight and narrow is the way to life and the minority teaches faith dia grace salvation which is eternal.....just saying....

The plenteous will boast of their works....and not make the cut

 

[dcontroversal]

If righteous, spiritual good works are the works of gold, silver and precious stones...which they are....How would you describe the works of wood, hay and stubble that get burned up, yet the person is still saved yet so as by fire?

The premise

Works of gold, silver and precious stones <---a faithful, spiritual believer

Works of wood, hay and stubble <----a ______._______.________ believer still saved so as by fire?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am saved, not by what I do for Him, but what He did for me. Ppl think they have to do things to remain saved. That's another gospel, false gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am saved, not by what I do for Him, but what He did for me. Ppl think they have to do things to remain saved. That's another gospel, false gospel.

AMEN bro...you got that right.....!