Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I see faith this way,

the gift is the word (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word)
the gift is eternal life, (and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish)
The price was reconciliation (and has reconciled them both to God in one body through the cross) (reconciled all things to himself having made peace through the cross) and redemption (in him we have redemption through the blood)
the end result is justofication, the believer stands in front of God having been declaired in right standing, based on the redemption found in Christ Jesus

that is what God is offering , this is what God is drawing us to, this is the work of God, that God did to save us from and eternity separated from him,

we have a choice,

repent, and say yes lord, I want this (see tax collector, who fell to his knees and asked a god to atone for his sins, because he was unable to)

not repent, and be like the pagan, or Pharisee, who puffs himself up because he does not think he needs God, he is doing find on his own.

The one who repented did not earn salvation, he did not work for it, God did all the work for him, he just sad yes, where as the other person said no.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If His Testimony itself teaches us works and to be perfect and Righteous.. how can that be adding? Does not make sense. It is believing..... which is the Law of Faith.

If I tell you to shave your head and be circumcised to be saved then you could have a valid point.. but a message relayed from the Shepherd is not relying on self but believing on Him who suffered for us to be forgiven and Reconciled with GOD.

We are set free to love GOD and each other. And we are Taught how to love GOD and each other by being loved first by a Gracious GOD.

Your adding because you beleve we are saved by thse things, not that those things are a byproduct of salvation.

Teaching works and rihteoisness to a believe in discipleship is great

tellomg them they will lose salvation if they do not live up to a standard is wrong, and a false gospel.

 

[loveme1]

Your adding because you beleve we are saved by thse things, not that those things are a byproduct of salvation.

Teaching works and rihteoisness to a believe in discipleship is great

tellomg them they will lose salvation if they do not live up to a standard is wrong, and a false gospel.

Stop accusing me to support your belief system... you insert all the above.. who have I told they will lose Salvation if they don't live up to a standard? How dare you say such a thing.. what standard my own? Never! Who on earth am I to tell someone such things. If the Scripture I believe and share is leading to your assumptions then consider the matter yourself as should we all. The Word of GOD is alive and cuts through indeed...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stop accusing me to support your belief system... you insert all the above.. who have I told they will lose Salvation if they don't live up to a standard? How dare you say such a thing.. what standard my own? Never! Who on earth am I to tell someone such things. If the Scripture I believe and share is leading to your assumptions then consider the matter yourself as should we all. The Word of GOD is alive and cuts through indeed...

do you believe one will lose salvation if they dbelieve not work or do you not?

All i I can do s go by what you say, all your have heard you say is you think a person can lose salvation is this true or not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Stop accusing me to support your belief system... ..

by the way, I do not need to support my belief system by accusing others.

 

[loveme1]

by the way, I do not need to support my belief system by accusing others.

I will not be replying to your questions after this...until our matter is worked out like the Lord taught us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will not be replying to your questions after this...until our matter is worked out like the Lord taught us.

This is a bible discussion forum, if your not going to back up what you believe, and be open to the fact people may not agree with you, and not be offended every time they do, then maybe this is not the place for you,

you asked a question, I simply answered it, if you did not like my answer, explain what I said was wrong,

if your going to post stuff on CC and I disagree, I will respond like the do for everyone,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will not be replying to your questions after this...until our matter is worked out like the Lord taught us.

By the way I will not respond to accusing emails, to many people have been banned for email responses, I will keep it public,

now, prove my false accusations against you, or stop,

all i I have ever done is share what I disagree with you with, if that is offensiveto you, why is that my fault?

Are we not allowed to share our disagreements with people, you could have stopped me in my steps if you answered my question about loss of salvation, but you chose not to, so I am forced to continue to think you believe what is see, until you prove otherwise.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Romans 8

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


_____________

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


____________
Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


_______________

2 Corinthians

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
__________________

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[loveme1]

Eg your behaviour demonstrates that I have lost not gained.

Continue as you are but I will not partake in your behaviour any longer.

It is a Bible discussion forum and I wish to discuss but When prolonged behaviour warrants action I tried but you have refused and my conscience is now clear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eg your behaviour demonstrates that I have lost not gained.

Continue as you are but I will not partake in your behaviour any longer.

It is a Bible discussion forum and I wish to discuss but When prolonged behaviour warrants action I tried but you have refused and my conscience is now clear.

Loveme1 your behavior is e one who needs a check, you think every time I say anything to you I am attacking you, that is not right, period,

The fact remains, you asked a question how People thought you were adding, I answered the question, going off what. Have seen you Write. Which s not against forum rules, and not an attack on you, just an honest opinion of what I see

either prove me wrong, which you could do easily by answering my question, or continue to be silent, which then I will have to continue to believe I am right, or put me on ignore because will will never Bible to discuss anything.

However, just know even if you have me on ignore, I will continue to post what I see, agree or disagree.

 

[PeterJens]

EG can only hold his position if following Christ and being filled with love and life is a work
that earns salvation in peoples belief system. If we believe it is the product of faith, but
without faith or this change we have nothing, then he has no argument.

He holds to a one off act of faith, sealing eternity. This only works if you do not analyse this act as
being clearly defined. Unfortunately the closer you get to defining it, the more it disappears.

Jesus talks about His word being the living entity that grows and changes us. But this is not
mystical enough, and can leave people, so it becomes hard to cling on to if Jesus meant one
to have total security irrespective of the future and ones choices. The parables clearly teach
action after coming to faith does effect your final salvation.

We do have security in Christ through the cross and His promises, yet this is not enough for some.
They want to be rebellious sinners, who hate God and still be saved. Bit of a problem when scripture
says the opposite. God promises a blessing to those who follow Him, and hold on to His word and walk
in His ways.

So the odd situation is we are being told we are not believers if we do not accept God haters can be
saved because of some previous faith position, and we believers are actually doomed to hell.
It is normal to put it like this, your friends are secure, your enemies are not. Even a child can understand
this, but then they are very desperate, psychologically desperate to have security beyond a level
any but universalists can deliver.

And in their eyes, the universal forgiveness of sin, means all are now forgiven, and in some ways
acceptable to God. He just needs to return and usher the world into heaven.

But this is just a total miss-understanding of sin and separation from God and our reconciliation.
But then if you have never truly been resolved, it would not be surprising to get this wrong.

Why should they teach brokenness and healing before the cross if they have never reached this
point themselves? You can only teach what you have also received.

 

[PeterJens]

History

We are saved to spend eternity in heaven as people who walk in love, one with another.
We often are so hard and cruel on ourselves and others, judging them and feeling hurt over
the smallest of issues.

God calls us Holy, righteous, cleansed and redeemed people of the Father if we love and follow
His ways. So I say simply, so you and I are, so continue to walk in it, and if you fall into sin,
repent, get right with God and walk on.

 

[PeterJens]

I want to say thankyou for my opponents over the years.
You have taught me so much about the impossibility of certain positions, and people will hold
aggressively such contradictatory ideas, and still claim spiritual authority and closeness to God
in worship and praise, it has changed me.

There is no power of argument that will change such things, only God encounters, so I know now
how to avoid the obvious distractions, and just talk about what comes out of our hearts, and the
blessing of the Holy Spirit which needs to flow to all, as streams of living water.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG can only hold his position if following Christ and being filled with love and life is a work
that earns salvation in peoples belief system. If we believe it is the product of faith, but
without faith or this change we have nothing, then he has no argument.

He holds to a one off act of faith, sealing eternity. This only works if you do not analyse this act as
being clearly defined. Unfortunately the closer you get to defining it, the more it disappears.

Jesus talks about His word being the living entity that grows and changes us. But this is not
mystical enough, and can leave people, so it becomes hard to cling on to if Jesus meant one
to have total security irrespective of the future and ones choices. The parables clearly teach
action after coming to faith does effect your final salvation.

We do have security in Christ through the cross and His promises, yet this is not enough for some.
They want to be rebellious sinners, who hate God and still be saved. Bit of a problem when scripture
says the opposite. God promises a blessing to those who follow Him, and hold on to His word and walk
in His ways.

So the odd situation is we are being told we are not believers if we do not accept God haters can be
saved because of some previous faith position, and we believers are actually doomed to hell.
It is normal to put it like this, your friends are secure, your enemies are not. Even a child can understand
this, but then they are very desperate, psychologically desperate to have security beyond a level
any but universalists can deliver.

And in their eyes, the universal forgiveness of sin, means all are now forgiven, and in some ways
acceptable to God. He just needs to return and usher the world into heaven.

But this is just a total miss-understanding of sin and separation from God and our reconciliation.
But then if you have never truly been resolved, it would not be surprising to get this wrong.

Why should they teach brokenness and healing before the cross if they have never reached this
point themselves? You can only teach what you have also received.

I usually had this person on ignore, but somethi told me had had a comment

1, once again, if works are required to maintain, or gain salvation, this is called works to earn salvation
2. EG believes all people who have true faith will work, are those who obey the commands of God, and are those who have a living faith
3. EG believes those who have no work, do not obey Bods commands, continues to live in sin had no faith to begin with, even if they "play church" their game is not fooling god, o lay other people.

Of course mr Peter here believes the cross is not enough and God need our help (he started a thread on that very subject, feel free to look it up) so one must consider the source. He Denys works salvation, while preaching it.

 

[PeterJens]

I usually had this person on ignore, but somethi told me had had a comment

1, once again, if works are required to maintain, or gain salvation, this is called works to earn salvation
2. EG believes all people who have true faith will work, are those who obey the commands of God, and are those who have a living faith
3. EG believes those who have no work, do not obey Bods commands, continues to live in sin had no faith to begin with, even if they "play church" their game is not fooling god, o lay other people.

Of course mr Peter here believes the cross is not enough and God need our help (he started a thread on that very subject, feel free to look it up) so one must consider the source. He Denys works salvation, while preaching it.

I will counter this argument with the simple point being made here.
Belief in God and in Christ is a response to revelation to our souls.

Somehow the argument is being made we can be saved without responding.
If you have to respond to receive you are doing something. In this world of argument,
just to respond is deemed earning salvation, which is very odd use of language.

When a helicopter comes to save a person at sea who is drowning, they do not say
the person saved themselves by accepting the person saving them, but unless they
do they will not be saved.

This is why acknowledging the faith in the believer and the step they must take is
part of salvation, and should never be ignored, but this is what these people do.

But ofcourse once you accept the believer is part of the process, it can also be
lost or rejected. Where this becomes rediculous is to justify the idea of judgement
despite all sins forgiven, people must be able to choose God or not, so be judged
for the sin of rejection.

Now this is obviously contrary to saying choice is not part of salvation, so I just
say they are absurd in their position but they refuse to recognise this.

And the cross is sufficient to do all we need in Christ, but only if we believe and walk in
it.

The trouble is with the language of these people, is it appears christian, but it actually is
not, it is just saying "I am saved" and nothing can change this. This is plainly absurd a
hollywood dream world. As soon as a believer needs to be something, you have accepted
a response is necessary. You need to build your house upon the rock or you are lost.

By the way the disdain of EG is obvious for all to read. But God bless him for his enthusiasm,
which I admire, though I believe miss-placed, in faith he is so close to where I stand, it is amazing
one can get things so wrong also, and end up justifying sinful behaviour and defeat.

 

[PeterJens]

A believer is one with Christ, and Christ was one with the Father.

A lot of believers do not realise this because they are harder on themselves than God is.
A lifetime of self condemnation and negative thinking about ones heart leaves a trail.

Can you believe God, the living Lord Jesus Christ wishes to embrace you and tell you, your
sins are forgiven, so walk in purity and love. "Listen to my words, put them into action,
Let me minster to your soul, speak to your Spirit, and teach you the ways of Gods will."

Walking in the light is a beautiful thing, not hiding anything, but being honest and open with
all you meet. This means knowing what and when to say things, but it holds no darkness
within. The cross has always been our glory, the freedom to enter into everything with God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will counter this argument with the simple point being made here.
Belief in God and in Christ is a response to revelation to our souls.

Somehow the argument is being made we can be saved without responding.

This is why I have this person on ignore, and why I will put him right back there,

god reveals himself to our souls, everything about him, including his grace provision for our souls via the cross,

Whether we are savd or not depends on how we respond to this, I myself and everyone I know who are with me on the gospel of grace have shown Peter this, but he never seems to grasp it, like many of his partners, he will continue to slander and not listen to a word anyone says,


Once again, I will give Peter a gentle bit of advice, you can not have a reasonable conversation with people if you constantly, even after you have been told never understand what hey believe

If you have to respond to receive you are doing something. In this world of argument,
just to respond is deemed earning salvation, which is very odd use of language.

Once again, Peter is not listening,

if your doing (work) to keep or maintain salvation, you are preaching works

if your responding out of faith, and as a result of being given or receiving salvation, you are responding in faith. And it is not works.

learn the difference, until you do, you will never see what others are saying.

When a helicopter comes to save a person at sea who is drowning, they do not say
the person saved themselves by accepting the person saving them, but unless they
do they will not be saved.

This is why acknowledging the faith in the believer and the step they must take is
part of salvation, and should never be ignored, but this is what these people do.

But ofcourse once you accept the believer is part of the process, it can also be
lost or rejected. Where this becomes rediculous is to justify the idea of judgement
despite all sins forgiven, people must be able to choose God or not, so be judged
for the sin of rejection.

Now this is obviously contrary to saying choice is not part of salvation, so I just
say they are absurd in their position but they refuse to recognise this.

And the cross is sufficient to do all we need in Christ, but only if we believe and walk in
it.

The trouble is with the language of these people, is it appears christian, but it actually is
not, it is just saying "I am saved" and nothing can change this. This is plainly absurd a
hollywood dream world. As soon as a believer needs to be something, you have accepted
a response is necessary. You need to build your house upon the rock or you are lost.

By the way the disdain of EG is obvious for all to read. But God bless him for his enthusiasm,
which I admire, though I believe miss-placed, in faith he is so close to where I stand, it is amazing
one can get things so wrong also, and end up justifying sinful behaviour and defeat.

1. No one says saying yes to the helecoptor who was sent t save you is works, so please, stop with the nonsense,
2. What we are saying is AFTER you were saved, you have to work, or the helicopter will take you back and put you in the sea to drown, (which is what peter himself espouses. Since he says salvation by the cross is. It enough, we must work to earn it)
3, disdain of EG? Another reason for all people to place peter on ignore. He yells and blaims EG for peters own misunderstanding of what grace people teach.

I am saddened that after months, with so many people trying to explain to Peter the same thing, he still does not get it.

 

[PeterJens]

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
2 tim 4:2

As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ
Rom 10:15-17

Faith comes from hearing the message.
And to be saved you have to accept it.

Plain and simple.

 

[TruthTalk]

I usually had this person on ignore, but somethi told me had had a comment

1, once again, if works are required to maintain, or gain salvation, this is called works to earn salvation
2. EG believes all people who have true faith will work, are those who obey the commands of God, and are those who have a living faith
3. EG believes those who have no work, do not obey Bods commands, continues to live in sin had no faith to begin with, even if they "play church" their game is not fooling god, o lay other people.

Of course mr Peter here believes the cross is not enough and God need our help (he started a thread on that very subject, feel free to look it up) so one must consider the source. He Denys works salvation, while preaching it.

Good Morning E-grateful, (still morning in California). I read Mr.Jens post's and sometimes he seems to be okay with who Jesus is and how a person is saved from their sin's, like here;


Mr Jens
"We do have security in Christ through the cross and His promises, yet this is not enough for some. They want to be rebellious sinners, who hate God and still be saved. Bit of a problem when scripture says the opposite. God promises a blessing to those who follow Him, and hold on to His word and walk
in His ways."

But my comprehension runs thin when I read statements like this;

MrJens

"So the odd situation is we are being told we are not believers if we do not accept God haters can be saved because of some previous faith position, and we believers are actually doomed to hell. It is normal to put it like this, your friends are secure, your enemies are not. Even a child can understand this, but then they are very desperate, psychologically desperate to have security beyond a level any but universalists can deliver.

At times when I read Mr. Jens post his Christian doctrine seems to be mix with a bit of eastern philosophy and a lot of plain earthly wisdom. My wife is born again Christian but was raised and steeped in Buddhism from her child hood in Thailand.

To me if you have a supplemented Christ it is no Christ at all, just an empty blend of humanistic philosophies, with no spiritual value at all. It may make you feel good about yourself and the world around you, which is what religion tries to do, but it cannot save your soul, what do you think, looking for understanding not meaning to be disrespectful.

God bless