REFORMED?

[Willie-T]

Has anyone ever noticed WHEN it was that God did something so that "whosoever believed" could be saved? I could be wrong, but I think that "whosoever" promise came only after Jesus, Himself, came. I don't think that God provided anything prior to Jesus that He made such a promise about.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Has anyone ever noticed WHEN it was that God did something so that "whosoever believed" could be saved? I could be wrong, but I think that "whosoever" promise came only after Jesus, Himself, came. I don't think that God provided anything prior to Jesus that He made such a promise about.

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour forthat which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 55:1-8)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17).

 

[Willie-T]

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour forthat which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 55:1-8)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17).

Yeah, I suppose you could stretch that into saying something similar. But, in those days, did Pharaoh and Esau have the option of being among "whosoever" that were told they could be saved? As any Calvinist (Reformed) person will tell you, those guys (and quite a few more) were already doomed, and there was nothing they could do about it.

 

[UnderGrace]

It seems to me Calvin is not in agreement with some people here


“Now it may be asked how men receive the salvation offered to them by the hand of God? I reply, by faith. Hence he concludes that here is nothing of our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all praise, it follows that salvation is not of us. … When, on man’s side, he places the only way of receiving salvation in faith alone, he rejects all other means on which men are accustomed to rely.

Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ.”

(Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.144)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yeah, I suppose you could stretch that into saying something similar. But, in those days, did Pharaoh and Esau have the option of being among "whosoever" that were told they could be saved?

Absolutely. God is not arbitrary and He is no respecter of persons. Esau had a golden opportunity to be a man of faith, and he blew it. Had he truly valued his birthright,and trusted God, he would have been patient, and simply cooked himself a meal with the meat he had in his hands. He exaggerated his hunger and made light of his birthright. So he was self-condemned.

As to Pharaoh, he would have been aware that his predecessor has not only treated the Hebrews kindly, but made a Hebrew man virtual king of Egypt. He could have chosen to be kind and generous to the Hebrews also, knowing that the God of the Hebrews was the one true God. Instead, he CHOSE to oppose God, he CHOSE to persecute the Hebrews, and he CHOSE to harden his heart after Moses pleaded with him again and again -- not once, but time after time. Finally God's mercy and grace towards him were exhausted, so God hardened his heart.

When God speaks about Pharaoh in this fashion -- Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth -- what God is saying is that He would make Pharaoh an example of anyone who chooses to oppose God and persecute the Hebrews, that God's power and authority would be known among all men. No doubt the plagues of Egypt would have resonated throughout the Middle East and beyond.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I understand that we are fallen in Adam.

I understand that God is sovereign because no one has authority over God

What I cannot understand is how in your view God chooses His elect?

And since He does it all, meaning He in His sovereignty chooses certain people to redemption, then why does He not just choose everyone?

Huh? Srsly? Who has averred this on here? Man damned himself in Adam's rebellion. The Christ came to undo that which Adam did to us.

Until you realize the lost are this...

You'll never truly grasp what lengths God went to to save us.

Let us appeal to the word and see what it has to say...

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.[Ezekiel 37:1,2] Here we see a valley of bones that were so far dead that the bones were pretty much sun-bleached. They had no hope of ever living again, if left to their fallen selves. There was no will they could exercise, no faith there to help them, either. They were helpless and hopeless.

He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, You know.”[vs 4] Now, how could these bones live again in your schema? They have no will that they can exercise, neither is there any innate faith to save them. They were completely cut off from life.

Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’ Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’”[vss 4-6] Notice He told Exekiel to say 'hear the word of the LORD'. Wait!! Bones don't have ears to hear with! How can these dried up bones with no ears hear what Ezekiel said to them? Here is where God unilaterally moved upon them to bring them back to life. It was all of His doing, and none of theirs.


So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.[vss 7-10] This is a picture of how the gospel works. We are commanded to preach the gospel in all nations and to all ppl. Now, it is through the message God works to bring to life those who He wills to live. So, this OT vision that Ezekiel had tells us how it is God works to save His ppl from their sins.

As Jesus told those self-righteous scribes and Pharisees “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.[Matthew 23:27]

 

[PeterJens]

Has anyone ever noticed WHEN it was that God did something so that "whosoever believed" could be saved? I could be wrong, but I think that "whosoever" promise came only after Jesus, Himself, came. I don't think that God provided anything prior to Jesus that He made such a promise about.

Gods promise was if you believed God and followed His commandments in joining Israel you
would be blessed, "saved". Jesus spiritualised the temple into the temple of believers,
the sacrifice is the sacrifice of His body on the cross, and access to the Father is now
view the Holy Spirit which in dwells every believer.

So what was before afar off, needing physical movement and loyalty, has now become
internal and can be brought everywhere in the world where the believer is.

 

[shrume]

Which is to say that he gave you a buck, but you gave him a penny. I get you know we got the better deal out of this, but I think the bookkeeping is off. We didn't even have the penny to give him. He gave us the penny (faith) too.

We're totally, utterly bankrupt with no hope to ever get in the black. Never to have a penny earned in our favor -- ever. And yet, the Lord balanced the sheet by giving us everything. We went from bankrupt and disabled (as in never-gonna-be-able-to-earn-anything-good) to princes of the King of the Universe. His choice. His doing. His ability.

Not ours.

Ahhhh, come on! Even if you disagree, you got to admit, it's a really good deal!

Yes, I disagree with Calvinism, but I absolutely agree that salvation is a really good "deal".

 

[Locutus]

I think I fall in the deformed "camp"....

 

[Willie-T]

Absolutely. God is not arbitrary and He is no respecter of persons. Esau had a golden opportunity to be a man of faith, and he blew it. Had he truly valued his birthright,and trusted God, he would have been patient, and simply cooked himself a meal with the meat he had in his hands. He exaggerated his hunger and made light of his birthright. So he was self-condemned.

As to Pharaoh, he would have been aware that his predecessor has not only treated the Hebrews kindly, but made a Hebrew man virtual king of Egypt. He could have chosen to be kind and generous to the Hebrews also, knowing that the God of the Hebrews was the one true God. Instead, he CHOSE to oppose God, he CHOSE to persecute the Hebrews, and he CHOSE to harden his heart after Moses pleaded with him again and again -- not once, but time after time. Finally God's mercy and grace towards him were exhausted, so God hardened his heart.

When God speaks about Pharaoh in this fashion -- Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth -- what God is saying is that He would make Pharaoh an example of anyone who chooses to oppose God and persecute the Hebrews, that God's power and authority would be known among all men. No doubt the plagues of Egypt would have resonated throughout the Middle East and beyond.

Kinda weak. God, Himself, said the He hated Esau, even before he was born. And as you just said, He told Pharaoh that his whole purpose was already sealed and he was destined to go through with it. And we won't even touch Judas and all the others.

I do not believe they were destined for Hell because of the role in life God consigned them to carry out, but rather that God dealt with them as He had always purposed to do. We may well meet them all in Heaven, since their "choice" was taken from them.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That's not what Jesus said in John 3:17-21. He said it was given but none of us wanted it. We preferred the darkness. And then he said the Father changes that. (Wrought it. One time I like KJV better than ESV. Good word -- wrought.)

In John 3:17-21 . . . scripture talks about those who are condemned already. They stay condemned for they chose not to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. They prefer their deeds of wickedness to not be brought to the light where as those that believe have brought their deeds of wickedness into the light in order to be forgiven of those wicked deeds. Jesus Christ came as the light. When we believe on Jesus then our deeds are brought to light, manifested and we are reproved of those deeds which leads us to godly sorrow unto repentance. That is wrought by God - repentance unto salvation through faith in his only begotten Son. No man comes to the Father but by (through) Jesus Christ. That is God reconciling us unto himself by (through) Jesus Christ.

 

[garee]

Kinda weak. God, Himself, said the He hated Esau, even before he was born. And as you just said, He told Pharaoh that his whole purpose was already sealed and he was destined to go through with it. And we won't even touch Judas and all the others.

I do not believe they were destined for Hell because of the role in life God consigned them to carry out, but rather that God dealt with them as He had always purposed to do. We may well meet them all in Heaven, since their "choice" was taken from them.

I would offer if we are saved by our will then the disciples would of knew what kind of food Christ spoke of in that parable.

Free will to a new creature is having the authority of God's will . It the kind of food the disciples knew not of. It is his will that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness.


In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.John 4

Hell speaks of the living sufferings of this life. There will be no suffering for those who do not have the Spirit of Christ in regard to the heart of the earth it is the belly of the whale called hell.

God is a God of mercy he offers a different kind of mercy to those who have the Spirit of Christ the ones that he had both mercy and grace on. He will not punish people because he did not write their names in the lambs book of life.

That would make him evil. And he would fall into the category below as a merciless God, seeing he is subject to the same laws. Mercy triumphs against a suffering judgment .

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment..
As many that he worked in to both will and do His good pleasure recognize where the power authority to believe came from.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (Authority) Which were born(again) , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Joh 1:13

 

[followjesus]

In John 3:17-21 . . . scripture talks about those who are condemned already. They stay condemned for they chose not to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. They prefer their deeds of wickedness to not be brought to the light where as those that believe have brought their deeds of wickedness into the light in order to be forgiven of those wicked deeds. Jesus Christ came as the light. When we believe on Jesus then our deeds are brought to light, manifested and we are reproved of those deeds which leads us to godly sorrow unto repentance. That is wrought by God - repentance unto salvation through faith in his only begotten Son. No man comes to the Father but by (through) Jesus Christ. That is God reconciling us unto himself by (through) Jesus Christ.

thats one of the best understandings of those verses ive Heard. thanks for taking the time to share that.

think Just a bit deeper about the Light and How that reproving comes through the Word Jesus preached. rememberuing that to be " in Christ" is to abide in and keep His word. so when a person has lust in thier Heart , and they see the gospel teaching regarding Lust in thier Heart......thats where the reproving begins. We Know Jesus is 100 percent correct regarding Gods Kingdom regarding Gods ways. so what He is saying should be our " Gospel" which it is. to reprove is to "rebuke, reproach, correct, to reprimand or censure"


its as simple as matthew 11 :At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Jesus death and resurrection accomplished the Holy spirit Being offered to us mere men and women. Jesus Doctrine, His Ministry On earth, that is the Minstry By the Son of God, for the children of God who would receive the spirit He promised and delivered when He sat down at the right Hand of God. we have to Learn from and trust the One who Gave His Life, His words are good and powerful to Heal our minds and Hearts.

John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

its very much about His word for those who accepted His death and resirrection as most christians i would think have done Long ago. our place as born again believers is to follow the Teachers doctrine

 

[MarcR]

Well, when we see it is God who quickens whoever He wills, we can know why Roy was saved.

Yes , but that is begging the question; because it depends on your doctrine of election which we are debating.

 

[MarcR]

Will God love ppl who will reside in hell? After they are cast into an eternal gehenna, does He still love them?

Hell is the consequence of sin. God doesn't want people to go there; that's why He took the penalty for sin upon Himself.

The only way anyone goes to Hell is by rejecting Jesus' provision for their sin(s).

 

[MarcR]

With all due respect sir, it was you who started this thread to begin with, and you should stay with us, imo.

I agree That is why I am back. However too much of anything at one sitting is likely to cause indigestion both figuratively and literally.

 

[MarcR]

It is her job not to pull one sentence out of a paragraph/speech/fuller answer.

One thing common in Arminian beliefs -- keep John 3:16 and ignore 17-21.

Lynn,

I don't agree with Armineus either!

 

[MarcR]

Well, you're side of the debate avers God is not willing any die lost, but many more will die lost than saved. Its your side of the debate that your question is addressing, not us.

2 Peter 3:9 refers to His elect, those He chose(not those He knew would choose Him) from before the foundation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] He's not willing any of them perish.

Quite right! So this debate is actually a debate on the concept of Freewill.

As I see it:

God created mankind because He desired a creature who was able to love Him.

The price God paid for a creature who was able to love Him was that He got a creature who was able not to Love Him.

You can build a machine that can do many things; but love can not be programmed or compelled.

God is indeed sovereign and is able to compel obedience. However by exercising that ability, God would preempt love.

God values love enough to refrain from having everything He desires. So His desire that all might be saved is, by His choice potentially unfulfilled.

God offers Salvation and redemption to all; but to receive Salvation one must choose to receive and return God's love.

I have the power and ability to break every window in my house. Thankfully I am not obliged to act on that ability.

Likewise God has the ability to compel total obedience and thereby prevent sin. However exercising this power would also prevent love. God elects not to compel obedience because he values love enough to accept the necessity of sin.

For those willing to accept Jesus as Lord (owner), Jesus gives Faith leading to Salvation.

I capitalize Salvation because it is the English translation of Jesus' (Yeshua's) name.

 

[followjesus]

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour forthat which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 55:1-8)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17).

good scriptures

Just wanted to do this

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD

Just wanted to show that the eternal promise there, was always Given with condition of repentance and seeking after Gods ways, with the great promise of Mercy accompanying, Knowledge of His Great Love for us in Christ, but we still have a part to keep up with.

 

[followjesus]

Hell is the consequence of sin. God doesn't want people to go there; that's why He took the penalty for sin upon Himself.

The only way anyone goes to Hell is by rejecting Jesus' provision for their sin(s).

Theres also this way

Romans 2 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."

v16:"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Notice what the determining factor is in the two Groups is? and that the stakes are " eternal Life" for One Group and indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish is the reward of the Other Group. Based whether Jew or gentile On thier Actions and that this is addressed to the church at Rome to Believers already with an established congregation." Hell was created for the devil and His angels". and those who serve His will belong to Him and will end up spending eternity with Him. Those who repent of satans will ( sin) and serve Gods Will will spend eternity with God.